Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

The thing with Unrelenting Assault is that it is quite good early on because it's a significant damage boost in longer fights, when longer fights tend to be the most important ones. Also it's not until later on in the game that it becomes more rocket tag-like and even important fights are decided quite quickly.

The issue, as Hap pointed out last time we discussed this ability, is that early on you typically want to get other, build-defining, abilities for your mythic picks.

 

[Parabalus]

Hmm, weird. Yes, I've been abusing stuff like that with my chargers, but since 2 patches or so it no longer works for me.
Generally all extra damage instances have been rolled into main attack damage proc.

I thought it was an Owlcat change... or was it TTT?

Must be a mod change.

 

[scytheavatar]

No, its nothing like EB was. In Turn Based mode its usually only 1 activation per round. Can be decent with a pet, yes - provided that you have a charger and a pouncing multi-attack pet. Preferably a raptor or a smilodon. Leopard at worst.
If the pets don't pounce charge, they usually only get 1 attack after movement.

You can move during the surprise round and then start round 1 with full attack from both character and pet. Or you can fail to kill your target in 1 round and start the next round with full attack. It's not amazing but not small amount of damage either, being left with that tiny bit of health in your target is always annoying.

 

[Average Manatee]

Improved initiative and mythic Improved initiative are more or less mandatory for every character in Unfair, no exceptions. Maybe less so in lower difficulties, but it is still always nice to have as combat is usually decided by your ability to take out that 1 nasty opponent in turn 1.

I play only boss fights on Unfair/TB and its not too big of an issue. Rest of game is played on Hard/RT because I don't want to double the game length and I also don't want to need to micro every little thing or dying from missing one little buff instead of cruising through at 3x gamespeed. So far I've not really had any problems.

And now you know why those characters suck and nobody uses them. Why non rider melees suck in general for this game.

Aye. At the very least Owlcat should really make everyone equally respeccable to level 1. Maybe as a NG+ bonus, they already basically have those for DLC.

You mentioned before trouble activating it. No Brown Fur Transmuter or any alchemist in the party?

Not running with mercs and there's not really any great option for an NPC that can class into them. But I did find that level 4 ranger spell which could keep it active so it works.

 

[Parabalus]

What's the go-to level 0 respec mod for companions? Toy box?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Going over ones I don't have:

- Leading Strike, is it actually any good? It seems like something that'd only work in real time (since every character will hit simultaneously), while in turn based it's practically useless. And I do boss fights in turn based. EDIT: nvm, it probably works great in turnbased when riding a pet, right? If it works like that then it should be one of the best mythics and taken early. Almost like Elemental Barrage used to be.

I use TTT mod, but I don't think it changes it. I play in RTwP and I like Leading Strike reasonably well. My initial concept was putting it on a cleaver to flag all enemies for my backline archers. While that works, it truly shines on a dual wielder when attacking a durable single target. The repeated hits means it stays up and is repeatedly triggered by other party members. It's a tremendous increase to DPS.

 

[Yosharian]

What's the go-to level 0 respec mod for companions? Toy box?

It used to be Barley's respec mod

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So apparently I cannot use gloves of the sacred beast to buff my pet's melee attacks, as natural weapons do not count as unarmed.
That is sad and ghey.

I have some misgivings about the whole time travel part of the the Aeon path as I think there would be more consequences other than Drezen not falling, but I do like how you can go around and ask people about Drezen and they give a completely different account after you meddle with the time line.
There's even a new Storyteller reading about Radiance, which is a nice touch.

 

[Parabalus]

What's the go-to level 0 respec mod for companions? Toy box?

It used to be Barley's respec mod

Looks like it's not there yet for the current version.

 

[Haplo]

You mentioned before trouble activating it. No Brown Fur Transmuter or any alchemist in the party?

Not running with mercs and there's not really any great option for an NPC that can class into them. But I did find that level 4 ranger spell which could keep it active so it works.

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

 

[Average Manatee]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

Probably better than continuing ES but losing 4 levels of progression makes me cringe so hard.

 

[Parabalus]

They really fixed the crusade mode nicely, when you get ahead of the curve you enemies flee and you get full loot.

Sped up animations are great too.

 

[Haplo]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

Probably better than continuing ES but losing 4 levels of progression makes me cringe so hard.

Its not really lost, though. Finesse Training, Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, even some Mage Armor and Mirror Image casts. Alchemist gains little from last 4 levels.

 

[Average Manatee]

Its not really lost, though. Finesse Training, Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, even some Mage Armor and Mirror Image casts. Alchemist gains little from last 4 levels.

It's not the last 4 levels but being 4 levels behind the entire game that hurts. That's getting spells like Echolocation or being able to offload some of Nenio's haste castings onto Woljif practically a whole chapter later. Also Transformation is nice to have ASAP if you plan to (ab-)use it on a part with a lot of mid-BAB characters (and of course pets), would rather not wait until level 20 for it and would rather have the ability to really spam it on everyone.

They really fixed the crusade mode nicely, when you get ahead of the curve you enemies flee and you get full loot.

Sped up animations are great too.

Still really annoying how there's like 3 or 4 different strategic views with slightly different interactions and options available depending on how you access it. And loading screens.

 

[Average Manatee]

Can anyone tell me where the -2 from Angelic Halo is coming from?

-2 from piercing rays checks out. Unfailing Beacon will increase the DC of the spell (since I targetted myself), but I verified that this is properly increasing her DC from 45 to 47, it shouldn't be applying a -2 to their saves. I don't see anything about Angelic Halo or Halo's Holy Aura that should apply another -2 to saving throws?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Were swarms this tanky in Kingmaker? I do not remember swarms being that hard to kill, especially when you have bombs and torches.
I did that fight in Ivory Sanctum against the two mythic demons, Xanthir's assistants and the swarms and the fight took like 10 turns more than it should because of the swarms. They didn't really hurt me, it just took forever to kill them because bombs did nothing and it even took like 6 hits with that lightning bolt spell axiomites have.
It doesn't help that they have like 15 fire resist for some silly reason. Good thing I gave Ember that mythic fire ability that allows her to ignore all resistances with fire spells and gave her that rebounding fire spell.

 

[Average Manatee]

Using (non-alchemist) bombs vs. swarms is a meme, that's a last resort option when you're fighting level 2 swarms. Torches aren't much better.

Not sure what level you are but around Ivory Sanctum should be the point where you've found a few rods to up your magic game and can either do selective magic and just spam nukes on your party or have some safer spells to use. Ascendent Element is actually not that essential for spell casters to get immediately, if you can use metamagic you'll just overpower their resistance for more damage than you would trying to ignore it. Of course both is best if you're trying to make a dedicated nuker.

It's Leper's Smile where I find you've really got not much capability to damage them through those resistance. Past that swarms just don't scale as fast as your damage output to them does and their damage to you stays fairly constant.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So...why can't I kill mythic enemies? I noticed that if I reduce a mythic enemy to below zero health, they don't die and instead become untargetable. Then after a bit they get full health and fuck me over with a bunch of powerful spells. What's up with that? I don't see anything in their info page that talks about that.

 

[Desiderius]

And now you know why those characters suck and nobody uses them. Why non rider melees suck in general for this game.

Just the guy poasting shots of destroying Unfair with them for four months.

Reg has Domains via Godclaw Order. They're good, especially at Swift speed. Main reason to play Cleric. Unlike Cleric he gets up to three of them.

He also has a unique Aura that gives +3 Morale AB/Dam/AC. AoE is good. Morale AC is rare. Choose Nobility Domain for (essentially infinite use) Inspiring Command and that's +5 rare AoE AC (along with Insight AB/Dam which isn't trivial).

People who don't know the game suck.

Greybor doesn't suck either since Slayer is an outstanding class but he's often redundant with either MC or other companions or with Aru if you know how to take advantage of Slayer skills side.

 

[Desiderius]

Absolutely hate it when enemies run away and I have to chase them across the whole level.

I don't have to. Why is that?

... what? Are you loading up on feats just to give her a small chance of applying -2 to enemy stats? That's pretty silly. Seelah's job is to kill things. Raising Archon's to a DC of like 25 and giving the enemy a 10% chance of -2 to their stats rather than just a 5% chance of critical failure is so not worth it. Can't take initiative because I wasn't able to fit the base version into my build. Maybe I could have dropped combat reflexes but AoO while flat footed is nice...

+4 DC is not small. Depending on difficulty it can double the chances of landing or reduce the chances of missing by up to 80%. Once you get Mythic she'll be high 20s and tops out at low 30s (and there are ways to get it higher if you get creative), which is good back-up for your Divine source in case it misses.

-2 AoE to AB/Saves/AC. You guys all jizz your pants for +2 AB from Mutation Warrior. That -2 AC alone is +2 AB for your whole team and that doesn't even get to the -2 on Saves (+2 DC for whole team) and -2 AB (+2 AC for whole team).

And it's a long-lasting passive (no action econ needed, even Free Action) effect. Pretty much uniquely you can even put on + Evo DC items to cast it then replace them and the DC stays high for whole duration.

Seelah's job is *not* to kill things, although she's fine at it. Her job is to get Mark on and tank with Fear Immunity, and she does it well. You have more than enough companions who can kill things and usually MC is main killer.

If you get Mythic Initiative she won't be flat-footed much, and with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield being Flat-footed doesn't have much effect on her AC either.

 

[Desiderius]

Seelah taking the Defensive Mythics from TTT/Dark Codex and Tower Shield at lvl 6 is a satisfying experience, with a Monk cherry on top.

For Wolj racing to ES 12 for Double Debilitation is also a very satisfying and powerful thing to do. He can still grab 8 Vivi levels after that if you like for distributing Shield spells or whatever, which is something I've done. But just staying in ES for the added Debilitation bump at 16 and a couple more Advanced Rogue Talents while developing some of his casting abilities (I like Transmutation with Darven's hat for some Slows and Obsidian Flows, with Hellfire capacity late) is also solid, especially with some of the added spells mods offer.

 

[Average Manatee]

+4 DC is not small. Depending on difficulty it can double the chances of landing or reduce the chances of missing by up to 80%. Once you get Mythic she'll be high 20s and tops out at low 30s (and there are ways to get it higher if you get creative), which is good back-up for your Divine source in case it misses.

You're demanding 2 feats and a mythic for this now. That's a HUGE price.

Everything that matters (i.e., an AC >80 that I actually struggle to hit without a round of buffing) will have saves of 30+, probably 40+. So making the DC go from 20 to 24 or 24 to 28 is pointless. Easy enemies I don't care much about, in fact you can see me hitting them above (having 3 characters with archons aura around 20-25 DC hits them fairly reliably).

-2 AoE to AB/Saves/AC. You guys all jizz your pants for +2 AB from Mutation Warrior. That -2 AC alone is +2 AB for your whole team and that doesn't even get to the -2 on Saves (+2 DC for whole team) and -2 AB (+2 AC for whole team).

Never used mutation warrior lol, not even a good class IMO, it's just the fighter cope class. Again, the problem is that you're only very minorly increasing the chance of applying -2, to enemies that are already easy to hit.

And it's a long-lasting passive (no action econ needed, even Free Action) effect. Pretty much uniquely you can even put on + Evo DC items to cast it then replace them and the DC stays high for whole duration.

Yeah it's great, but spending so much time boosting it is a waste.

Seelah's job is *not* to kill things, although she's fine at it. Her job is to get Mark on and tank with Fear Immunity, and she does it well. You have more than enough companions who can kill things and usually MC is main killer.

Oh but she is, she's my 2nd best killer after Wenduag and commonly wipes out 2 enemies per turn. My normal turn order is me w/ guarded hearth, then attack or spell (granted I could kill everything with spells but that's boring so...), then Cam w/ evil eye, then Seelah using mark and attacking the boss, then Wenduag using quarry and charging in for her own attacks. Probably half the time the boss doesn't survive to Wenduag's turn and having her around is overkill.

If you get Mythic Initiative she won't be flat-footed much, and with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield being Flat-footed doesn't have much effect on her AC either.

She has a mount so I don't even pay attention to her armor and she get's a nice fauchard.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

I tried straight Eldritch Scoundrel, but it just wasn't cutting it. I then did ES4/Slayer, which was much better but not quite there. Eventually I switched over to ES4/Vivisectionist like a basic bitch and it's finally satisfying. I'll probably stick with that.

 

[Desiderius]

+4 DC is not small. Depending on difficulty it can double the chances of landing or reduce the chances of missing by up to 80%. Once you get Mythic she'll be high 20s and tops out at low 30s (and there are ways to get it higher if you get creative), which is good back-up for your Divine source in case it misses.

You're demanding 2 feats and a mythic for this now. That's a HUGE price.

Everything that matters (i.e., an AC >80 that I actually struggle to hit without a round of buffing) will have saves of 30+, probably 40+. So making the DC go from 20 to 24 or 24 to 28 is pointless. Easy enemies I don't care much about, in fact you can see me hitting them above (having 3 characters with archons aura around 20-25 DC hits them fairly reliably).

-2 AoE to AB/Saves/AC. You guys all jizz your pants for +2 AB from Mutation Warrior. That -2 AC alone is +2 AB for your whole team and that doesn't even get to the -2 on Saves (+2 DC for whole team) and -2 AB (+2 AC for whole team).

Never used mutation warrior lol, not even a good class IMO, it's just the fighter cope class. Again, the problem is that you're only very minorly increasing the chance of applying -2, to enemies that are already easy to hit.

And it's a long-lasting passive (no action econ needed, even Free Action) effect. Pretty much uniquely you can even put on + Evo DC items to cast it then replace them and the DC stays high for whole duration.

Yeah it's great, but spending so much time boosting it is a waste.

Seelah's job is *not* to kill things, although she's fine at it. Her job is to get Mark on and tank with Fear Immunity, and she does it well. You have more than enough companions who can kill things and usually MC is main killer.

Oh but she is, she's my 2nd best killer after Wenduag and commonly wipes out 2 enemies per turn. My normal turn order is me w/ guarded hearth, then attack or spell (granted I could kill everything with spells but that's boring so...), then Cam w/ evil eye, then Seelah using mark and attacking the boss, then Wenduag using quarry and charging in for her own attacks. Probably half the time the boss doesn't survive to Wenduag's turn and having her around is overkill.

If you get Mythic Initiative she won't be flat-footed much, and with Heavy Armor and Tower Shield being Flat-footed doesn't have much effect on her AC either.

She has a mount so I don't even pay attention to her armor and she get's a nice fauchard.

It's not a huge price for tank Seelah. What else does she need? I had her at 30 DC and I'm not very good at jacking up DCs. On Unfair that's going to hit a decent number of regular mobs but of course not many bosses. On any other difficulty it's in the sweet spot. Understand that I'm also constantly debuffing saves with other passives like Frightful Presence and the Will Save debuff Belt along with Sicken effects wherever I can get them.

I was casting some Holy Whispers for awhile as well which are kind of underwhelming on Unfair (not enough Good melee among the companions either, though Ulfrig and a Good MC would change that) and since I didn't take Abundant on her she didn't have many slots. On Unfair the Evo Focus plan isn't awful but I could definitely see going a different direction if you wanted to Shield Bash or use her as an Intimidator to supplement the tanking.

If you understand how the math works +4 DC is not minor (your assumption that you can't get into a range where it hits is not quite correct but it does take tight play), which is why DC enhancement effects are so rare. It's only a waste if you're not in that range.

You've mentioned you, Wend, Cam, and Seelah. Are you playing four-man? Obviously that would change the way you'd use her somewhat, though when she tanked Unfair Playful for me she effectively soloed the fight one-handed anyway while rest of party was fighting Shadows. There are no bulletsponges so there's way more sources of damage available than you could ever use.

We've been over the Mount. Horse is notoriously not all that tanky (certainly giving her TSS level and +3 Tower at lvl 6 gives you a far higher AC character than the Horse) and splashing Beast Rider sets everything back a level (including Mark). Divine Weapon Bond is the best Weapon Enchanting ability in the game and a defining feature of the class so something I'm not willing to give up from a pure enjoyment standpoint. It surprised me how good it was simply straight-up.

I spent three years lecturing people about not needing a tank and you didn't really in P:K. But comparing my first Wrath Unfair run to this one it did make things a great deal smoother and Seelah can in fact get there, especially with TTT Mythics to help.

As far as easily hitting things Hearth is once per rest. It was something I picked up on Sosiel late and the game gives you plenty of rest to recharge it. I'm kind of with Daidre though in not wanting to exploit the amount of rests the game gives you too much and in places like the DLC you need some staying power without it, so things like Reg's Aura (3 per rest), Mark, and Inspiring Command are more my style.

 

[Desiderius]

Woljif's typical build is ES4/Vivisectionist 16.
Of course, there are many other options.

I tried straight Eldritch Scoundrel, but it just wasn't cutting it. I then did ES4/Slayer, which was much better but not quite there. Eventually I switched over to ES4/Vivisectionist like a basic bitch and it's finally satisfying. I'll probably stick with that.

For straight ES it's important to be fighting Reduced since it's all upside and to use things like True Strike if necessary to make sure Double Debilitation lands. Once it does he should be able to go off. Make sure to have Vitals up as much as possible. Slayer doesn't get that and it gives you more Sneaks total than Vivi (1/3 + 1/4 = 7/12). Illusion Magic increases survivability but he should have decent AC with Reduce, Shield spell, and eventually Archmage Armor.

One thing I've done is to make him a Transmuter (again not great for beating saves on Unfair, but really good below that with Darven's Hat giving Swift Slows) and giving him the fire damage items to combine with Obsidian Flow to lay down Difficult Terrain and do some decent AoE damage. Feather Step, Mass means your team can move while opponents are all slowed down. This works well with Fear effects.

I think Tar Pool is Transmutation too and has a thing where the enemy has to spend a turn cleaning off Tar? Been a long time since I've had Wolj in my group much at that point so haven't tested it in awhile.