Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I had hopes for Daeran, but I tell him to shut up quite a bit. Nails the aloof spoiled rich teenager without a shred of empathy though. Decent caricature of a narcissistic sociopath. I just find his gregarious hedonism one note. Look at me! Look at how little I care! I'm disaffected because everything pales before me! Pay attention to me!

I suppose that means he's competently written.

 

[Delterius]

I think he's doing them very much with regards to the consequences.

He's not intending innocent people die, he's just taking risks and not caring about the consequences to other people.

Yep, it's a kind of nihilism. He's a dude who lost his family as a kid. He was a brat as a child sure, but it got much worse since his loss is tied to his moral compass. That is, he lost his mother arguably she stuck to the values of selflesness, valor, and everything Iomedae. He's also trapped in a cycle of misery from which he cannot escape except briefly and via rampant hedonism. Daeran is the sort of person to hire a bunch of bodyguards and then endanger himself, fully in the knowledge that his own servants will end up dead and with no chance of survival. He shows cruelty in the face of kindness or loyalty. It makes sense he's neutral evil too since that means he's more or less fated to Oblivion rather than Hell or the Abyss.

I don't disagree that Daeran's destructive personality is much more tempered than that of a lot of evil companions in RPGs. But I'd argue that's both a fresh take on alignment, and also makes for a character who can be believably tempered away from evil.

Daeran is right on that threshold. People like Woljif know they are amoral. Daeran otoh rallies against morality and thrives on it, even if he's not a villain per se.

 

[0sacred]

The Codex paraphrasing WotR writing is probably gayer than the game itself

 

[Desiderius]

Actual based take on current_year female politicians, Daeran's writing is pretty good.

Daeran being NE is kinda weird. He laughs at people's misfortunes but generally doesn't cause them, except for pranks. He's more of just a neutral or chaotic neutral character. But I guess that'd make him overlap too much with Woljif.

Daeran doesn't just laugh at people's misfortunes though, he thrives on throwing salt onto people's wounds. Recall that story about Galfrey's friend/noble knight who died whose helmet he bought just to shit on the guy's memory. He's not as evil as Camellia, or as stupid as a demon cultist, but he is still an anti social misanthrope with a destructive personality. He also has no compunction about killing people to keep his secrets.

Woljif is morally neutral because his primary motivations as a thief aligns him more against authority of any kind. He can be altruistic and egotistic both, whereas Daeran is not just a cunt, but primarily motivated by hedonism and to make the people he dislike suffer. Just compare the way they act in the council.

It's the Other that's offing people. Whatever Evil that's there is invariably CE (and consists principally of past stories) and that mellows out over time. He's certainly far afield from the usual cold malevolent nihilism of NE. The characteristic feature of NE is Death, which isn't Daeran. He's the life of too many parties, not the death. He's the only one that *lived* through the tragic event that the Inquisitor takes you back to.

He isn't driven by spite as much by regret and disappointment with his relative Galfrey driving the Crusades into the ground with her vanity*, along of course by the unimaginable grief of losing his family at a young age and the guilt of being the lone survivor who *unwittingly* called a terrible evil into the world to save himself/own the evil dudes who'd crashed the party. He gives people (mostly the other dudes) shit because that's what male members of the animal kingdom normally do to one another. Competition mixed with affection for those who can give back as good as they get.

I think the writers made him NE (and Delterius's hate is burning unusually strong here) because he's a rich kid and a lot of people's instinctive disgust instincts have been re-directed into the that narrow window.

* - the fact that his trenchant criticism hits so close to the mark gives the lie to his supposed evil. Evil characteristically finds itself far afield of the truth due the tangled web woven by its arrogant penchant for lies.

 

[Lambach]

He's certainly far afield from the usual cold malevolent nihilism of NE. The characteristic feature of NE is Death

Pretty sure Death is as plain Neutral as it gets. The embodiment of death in that Universe is Pharasma, a True Neutral Diety.

The embodiment of Neutral Evil are Daemons who represent not Death in itself, but intentional destruction of all life and Creation itself.

Now, while Daeran obviously isn't anywhere near that level, he operates in a similar way, i.e. he intentionally destroys others (usually not physically, but emotionally, financially, etc.) just for the sake of it and for his own amusement and he doesn't care at all how much damage he causes to others along the way.

He's the life of too many parties, not the death.

Urgathoa is the Goddess of both the Undead and revelry, debauchery and hedonism as well. She is Neutral Evil. I myself never figured out what the connection is between the two and how they can both be parts of the same Deity's portfolio, but that's apparently how it works on Golarion.

He gives people (mostly the other dudes) shit because that's what male members of the animal kingdom normally do to one another.

That's what you see while traveling with him. But according to his own stories and what others say about him, he doesn't just "give people shit", he goes out of his way to torment them in one way or another, with no provocation or reason beyond his amusement and/or spite.

I think the writers made him NE (and Delterius's hate is burning unusually strong here) because he's a rich kid and a lot of people's instinctive disgust instincts have been re-directed into the that narrow window.

Well, that, or because he's a sadist with a complete disregard for human (and other sentient) life. Being rich only makes him able to get away with it, instead of getting beaten to death by an angry mob.

 

[Average Manatee]

Neutral on the law/chaos axis makes no sense. He is actively opposed to the concept of order and hierarchies. He isn't cruel or fucking with everyone, just the uptight people who he thinks need to be taken down a peg. He loves fucking with characters like Iomedae, Galfrey, and Nocticula the most.

Evil makes no sense. Evil requires intent. He's just doing shit and what happens happens. It's more just crazy than anything. Unless you think the entire concept of the trickster mythic path is evil. Or compare him to the Lantern King from Kingmaker. Probably hundreds of thousands of deaths due to him but it doesn't make him evil.

Furthermore he does display empathy and concern for people at times. It's just... random, like a chaotic character would be. But certainly not to the uptight characters like I mentioned above.

 

[PapaPetro]

Yeah, that's the sort of stuff Daemons like to do, and they are the epitome of Neutral Evil.
Remember that Daemons run on spite, and as such Neutral Evil has a strong element of spite to it.
Going out of your way to make someone miserable, even if other people get hurt in the process, is pretty damn spiteful.

And a Lawful Evil Devil will try to convince you that the Daemon is actually True Neutral, perhaps even Neutral Good.
There's where sophistry/logical fallacies and rhetoric gets you.

 

[Desiderius]

He is actively opposed to the concept of order and hierarchies.

If that were the case he wouldn't be so pissed off at Galfrey for fucking it up. He's actively opposed to sham hierarchies. Few things more disorderly than using superbotox to cling to the throne despite decades of mediocre performance.

There are a lot of stories about things he did in the past, but most of them come from Daeran himself. He covers his pain in a lot of bullshit maybe that's bullshit too.

What I know his what he does in game and there isn't any of that, other than the heads and its never clear where those are coming from, unlike Cam where you catch her several times in the act.

 

[Lambach]

Neutral on the law/chaos axis makes no sense. He is actively opposed to the concept of order and hierarchies.

Wut? He's a noble in a feudal system, actively embraces it and enjoys all the perks that come with it. He doesn't have an ideological attachment to the established societal order and its hierarchies, but I don't see him actively rebelling against them either, because his position in them benefits him greatly. In short - a real Neutral attitude towards the concepts of Law or Chaos.

He isn't cruel or fucking with everyone, just the uptight people who he thinks need to be taken down a peg. He loves fucking with characters like Iomedae, Galfrey, and Nocticula the most.

Again, that may be true from what we've seen of him in-game, but it's not the whole story. If you don't believe what other characters say about him, he himself brags about his misdeeds that go well beyond just good-natured "fucking with uptight people".

Evil makes no sense. Evil requires intent.

Or a complete disregard for the lives of others. If I dump asbestos into a river instead of disposing it properly to save some money, and I know a local village gets its drinking water from there, I did not intend to poison and kill a bunch of people there - I just didn't care while being aware of that possibility. Isn't that evil as well?

He's just doing shit and what happens happens.

Not really, when he talks about himself, it's clear he's pretty deliberate in his actions and isn't just LEL SO RANDOM XDDD

Unless you think the entire concept of the trickster mythic path is evil.

The Trickster, on the other hand, is pretty RANDOM XDDD and yeah, I think it is potentially quite close to evil depending on how you play.

Or compare him to the Lantern King from Kingmaker. Probably hundreds of thousands of deaths due to him but it doesn't make him evil.

Yeah, I never understood that either. In Kingmaker we see Chaotic Neutral Fey hurt or even kill people as a part of their "jokes". They may not have the intention to hurt/kill those people, but they don't care if it does happen because they have to have their joke. I mean, torturing people just for fun sounds pretty Evil to me, regardless of whether the torture itself is the main intention or just an acceptable side-effect.

 

[Average Manatee]

Wut? He's a noble in a feudal system, actively embraces it and enjoys all the perks that come with it. He doesn't have an ideological attachment to the established societal order and its hierarchies, but I don't see him actively rebelling against them either, because his position in them benefits him greatly. In short - a real Neutral attitude towards the concepts of Law or Chaos.

He's just embracing the power it gives and things it lets him do. If anything Cam shows more attachment to her noble status yet she's clearly not lawful. Because in both cases they are merely using it to an end.

Or a complete disregard for the lives of others. If I dump asbestos into a river instead of disposing it properly to save some money, and I know a local village gets its drinking water from there, I did not intend to poison and kill a bunch of people there - I just didn't care while being aware of that possibility. Isn't that evil as well?

Yeah, I never understood that either. In Kingmaker we see Chaotic Neutral Fey hurt or even kill people as a part of their "jokes". They may not have the intention to hurt/kill those people, but they don't care if it does happen because they have to have their joke. I mean, torturing people just for fun sounds pretty Evil to me, regardless of whether the torture itself is the main intention or just an acceptable side-effect.

Difference is that the former gives no chance for them to survive. The latter makes challenges for mortals and its up to them to overcome them. He doesn't explicitly want them to die, he wants to see them do something interesting for him.

 

[Lambach]

The latter makes challenges for mortals

That they never agreed to. He's forcing them to play his potentially lethal games against their will for personal amusement.

He doesn't explicitly want them to die, he wants to see them do something interesting for him.

OK, so if I kidnap you, drag you into the woods somewhere, point a loaded shotgun to your face and order you to leap over a huge chasm with sharp rocks on the bottom, just because I want you to do something interesting for me by presenting you with this challenge, am I not an evil piece of shit? I'm giving you no choice but to play my game, and if you suck at it, you die. But don't worry, it's cool, I don't explicitly want you to die, I just want to have some fun, and if you end up paying for it with your life, eh, JUST A PRANK BRO. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Rhobar121]

The alignment in this game is random. Attempting to analyze is completely pointless if it is assigned randomly.

 

[Nerevar]

Okay lads I'm going to do my 2nd playthrough now.

Beat the game once as Angel Oracle on launch so now will play something else.

Thinking Lich or Legend.

 

[Yosharian]

Azata, hmm. What's your build?

Nothing special. Dumb barbarian.

Yikes. Um, I don't really have a recommendation. You must have last stand on everyone and you must be able to hit his AC.

It's a build check tbh, you're level 20 *shrug*

To motivate you (lol):

Spoiler

 

[Average Manatee]

OK, so if I kidnap you, drag you into the woods somewhere, point a loaded shotgun to your face and order you to leap over a huge chasm with sharp rocks on the bottom, just because I want you to do something interesting for me by presenting you with this challenge, am I not an evil piece of shit? I'm giving you no choice but to play my game, and if you suck at it, you die. But don't worry, it's cool, I don't explicitly want you to die, I just want to have some fun, and if you end up paying for it with your life, eh, JUST A PRANK BRO. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes.

For the Lantern King its no different from taking ants on one part of your yard and putting them in another part. For Daeran its probably roughly the same.

 

[Lambach]

Yes.

For the Lantern King its no different from taking ants on one part of your yard and putting them in another part. For Daeran its probably roughly the same.

I dunno, if I were fucking up some ants just for fun, I would most certainly stop if I could hear them scream, in a human language, "STOP STOP PLEASE YOU'RE GOING TO KILL US PLEASE STOP!!"

Playing with the lives of other fully sentient creatures who can clearly express their anguish in a way that you understand and being perfectly willing to off them if that's part of your "joke" just for some laughs is pretty much Chaotic Evil.

You don't see Neutral Deities, who are significantly above the Lantern King on the evolutionary scale and for whom mortals seem even more so like ants, torment sentient beings just for shits and giggles.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

Azata, hmm. What's your build?

Nothing special. Dumb barbarian.

Yikes. Um, I don't really have a recommendation. You must have last stand on everyone and you must be able to hit his AC.

It's a build check tbh, you're level 20 *shrug*

To motivate you (lol):

Spoiler

Welp, that's odd. Something changed in the patch when I went back. For one, the Mephisto model changed to the large figure closer to what is showing in yours and other pics above.
Second, Arue one-shot gibbed him on the alpha. With +5 Finnean and 23 damage. Alrighty then.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, that's the sort of stuff Daemons like to do, and they are the epitome of Neutral Evil.
Remember that Daemons run on spite, and as such Neutral Evil has a strong element of spite to it.
Going out of your way to make someone miserable, even if other people get hurt in the process, is pretty damn spiteful.

And a Lawful Evil Devil will try to convince you that the Daemon is actually True Neutral, perhaps even Neutral Good.
There's where sophistry/logical fallacies and rhetoric gets you.

Nah, doing that would not benefit the Devil. He wants your soul, and sending you off to get it eaten by a Daemon isn't going to give it to him.
What he would do is convince you that he's actual Lawful Good and that the Devils' system of rule is truly what's best for creation, and that you should be happy to work in the razor blade mines because it builds character. So just sign on the dotted line and raise his status just a little bit more.

 

[Nerevar]

Alright gamers. It's gamer time.

Human, Male, 20 Vivisectionist, Lich Mythic path.

Only question is dual weapons or Grave Singer.

 

[Delterius]

He isn't driven by spite as much by regret and disappointment with his relative Galfrey driving the Crusades into the ground with her vanity*

I don't really agree with that. Yeah, Daeran often mentions that the crusaders suck ass. But the key issues of his spite towards Mendev are threefold:

First that his mother was true to Iomedae's ideals, and ended up sacrificing herself to save others. That's where Daeran goes from a noble brat to someone who is disillusioned with the faith. That the crusaders suck only adds to that, but that's the initial trigger for his nihilism. Had Daeran not lost his mother, he'd still have his moral compass. His reaction towards Mendev's incompetence and Galfrey's weakness would be one of despair (we are the good guys, and we are losing! the world is doomed!), rather than spiteful disdain.

Second, his condition with the Other means he's constantly fearful of the inquisition and anyone who can find out his secret. He knows he'll be killed for the pact he signed as a ~12 yo on the brink of death. And the church most likely to carry out his punishment is that of Iomedae.

Third, that feeds back into one of the first dialogues you have with him, in the Defender's Hearth. Daeran says he's from old Mendev nobility, so he's aware that Mendev used to have a history of it's own. Over time, Daeran's seen how Mendev's heroes disappeared in favor of the Crusade's. Mendev's culture is in a way being colonized by this continent-wide multi-faith effort to fight the demons.

When I played Trickster I perceived Daeran as in a trifecta with Joran Vhane and Nurah. They were the key supporting characters for why the Trickster PC's motivation comes about. That is, it's not just the demons but also Mendev and the Crusades which deserve a comeuppance. The Crusaders don't just suck because they are weak. If the PC thinks that they'll come to their rescue as an Angel. Rather, the Crusaders are hypocrites, fools, and morally arrogant. It really fit how Daeran was the companion that wholeheartedly sided against Iomedae at the end of the day. Everyone else is supportive and doesn't want me to go insane. But as far as Daeran is concerned, Trickster is the answer to his non denominational prayers.

Yes.

For the Lantern King its no different from taking ants on one part of your yard and putting them in another part. For Daeran its probably roughly the same.

so your argument that someone isn't evil is that he treats people like ants...?

manatee are you a ceo of a large corporation if so i could really use a bullshit job rn

You gotta understand that the Lantern King is fey and a god. Daeran is, well, for the lack of a better word human. The Lantern King's motives cannot be understood as anything approaching humanity. He's an otherwordly being who, by the way, is probably granting spells to chaotic good and chaotic evil people even as he fucks up your kingdom. Whereas Daeran is a broken person who chooses to disregard human life and spread misery for it's own sake.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

What is the easiest way to unlock a map location in Toy Box? I can't progress in the quest 'A Refuge From the Present'.

 

[scytheavatar]

Alright gamers. It's gamer time.

Human, Male, 20 Vivisectionist, Lich Mythic path.

Only question is dual weapons or Grave Singer.

Always Two handed. Dual weapons cannot compete with 1.5X multiplier to str damage and power attack.

 

[Infinitron]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3699190964661327364?l=english

Update 2.1.4w
Greetings, Pathfinders!

Update 2.1.4w is out! This hotfix fixes a critical bug from the last update.

Mechanics

• In turn-based mode, some spells and abilities that require target selection couldn't be used after taking a 5-foot step — fixed.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Well, now the AI is ganging up on Daeran, even though I have Seelah and Ember in the party. They just walk right past my mounted MC and seelah and start smacking around Daeran as soon the battle starts. This AI makes no sense. I don't like my backline being a moshpit.
And yes, I know about surprise rounds. Doesn't help me during scripted encounters.

 

[Average Manatee]

This is why a large AoO reach along with ever ready and pets that trip enemies is so useful. I've realized that I don't even notice when they try to run through my lines.

Though I recommend making Daeran a melee character with lunge. Could be that the AI is beelining characters with ranged weapons? Anyone know how the AI works?