Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

A fairly new mod that starts all companions with only the first level if you didn't want to fully respec them.
https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/679?tab=description

The opening classes don't lend themselves as well to going a different direction as they did in KM. Lann is kind of an exception but even there often felt the bite of being underlvled in the caster/hybrid classes that were the most natural fit with what ZA gives you early.

They were leaning really hard in this one to get people to figure out that progression is mostly tied to class lvls, not character levels.

 

[Desiderius]

Kinetic Sharpshooter really has a lot of play to it. Fire targets Touch (as do Composite Blasts that include Fire if you use Explosive Arrows), but has to get through SR (until Blue Flame Infusion that comes pretty late and requires choosing Fire twice), does less base damage and has to fight through a lot of Resists. Ascendant Element can get thru Resists but not SR, and Eldritch Breach (advantage on Spell Pen/Dispel rolls, TTT) seems like a must before Ascendant but still not a sure thing against highest SRs.

Metallic Infusion is no Save and Pushing Infusion is a CMB check (with Greater Bull Rush Triggers AoOs) if you can use the higher ABs (compared to regular Kinnie) to hit non-Touch AC. Infusions that require a save are going to be iffy on Unfair.

You generally have enough fuel in the Quiver to target Touch with Explosive Steam Blast with Pushing Infusion, but there you've got to worry about Explosive damaging nearby friendlies (who get the AoOs from the Greater Bull Rush). Quiver is big enough to add Empower/Max to key shots.

Detainer isn't going to trigger much on Unfair so Light XBow of Oracle's Mystery probably better than blowing 16k. Long/Shortbows add no damage and have narrower crit range until you hit the Keen Longbow.

 

[Desiderius]

A couple examples:

(playing on Core because old, haven't played for a year, and how I test classes I haven't played yet. Can still get an idea how things will work on Unfair. Will rerun some fights on Unfair to confirm)



This is vs Touch AC (Exploding Steam Blast) and you get the range of the weapon so free Extended Range built in, although often since it can move (no Gathering) it can get into Point-Blank range. Point being it doesn't have to. Don't have Improved crit because Wintersun XBow is already Keen. If you need something deleted at range very nice way to do it if it doesn't have insane SR, and even then sometimes worth a shot. He has Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen along with Eldrtich Breach for advantage. Galfrey's Relic adds +2 and he's wearing the Shirt from Wolj. 17 Spell Pen at this point.



On the utility end not using Empower or Maximize, just Exploding with Flash Infusion that is free due to Infusion Specialization at lvls 5 and 8. Note that the Infusion applies to all caught in the splash. Babau Blinded despite not being the target.

Have three Archon's up (Inciter gets it from Spell Kenning) and Sos has 23 DC, so will often apply even on Unfair for another -2 on saves, but hit or miss still if this Infusion would apply on Unfair. Shaken OTOH is pretty easy to apply. If I have somethnig flat-footed can go with Pushing + Greater Bull Rush to trigger AoOs.

 

[Desiderius]

About the writing:

There's a scene where you encounter Lawful Good Joran Vhane who has followed his brother Staunton when he left with Minagho. When he decides to fight you to protect his brother he turns LN.



Here's LN Lann's response agreeing with his decision. Interesting depiction of LN of honoring Natural Law at its most primal over the greater Good. Cf. Mark 10:29

Didn't catch CG Ember reminding Joran of his charity toward her, but Daeran's response is the bottom quote. Based comeuppance for bleeding heart libs with their inane "In this House" signs covering for Selfish Gene behavior!

Daeran's Other is never explictly said to be an Aeon but it sure acts like it, and many of his most biting critiques come from the Aeon perspective. This one calls to mind what the Inquisitor sees at Daeran's mansion, which serves as a well-crafted exposition of the background of his character and how it ended up NE.

Daeran's mother violates that Natural Law by heeding LG Nestrin's advice (command?) to sacrifice not only herself to a hypothetical greater good, but also the child under her protection - Daeran himself. Not a very motherly thing to do and one imagines Mother Nature not frowning on the Other taking old Nestrin down a peg in the end scene along with the Demons. Being a single mom is no picnic!

Unlike Anakin, Daeran goes to the dark side not to violate the natural order but in response to its violation. Ends up destroying the village in order to save it.

Back to Joran:



If you were ever wondering why Eaglesoul has that last clause the writers set up a perfect situation for it to come into play. Old Joran fires it up out of habit not realizing his own decisions have changed his alignment.

Sick!

 

[Desiderius]

Mantis Zealot has access to some interesting Blessings, but I think Trickery Blessing is a little redundant.



The Swift Greater Invis is nice here to pick up Concealment (flat-footed is usually good too, but most of Joran's AC is coming from his Armor and Shield), but the Red Shroud ability on Mantis already does that. Likewise the single Mirror Image of the Double ability isn't a great fit in melee where characters naturally get attacked a lot. Image is better on toons that are usually out of the action. The Fading ability already provides a scaling miss chance when Shroud is up. The second Death Blessing level-drain is probably nuts with all the attax it gets and ways to boost its own AB. Think I'll test that.



Notice how much damage Mantis is doing despite not having DEX-to-damage. Minutes of Red Shroud goes by DEX bonus so priced into DEX-based I think.

(1) You can see weapon dice starting to grow. Once Righteous Might/Legendary shows up that will matter more. Sabers have 17-20 with Improved crit so comes up a good bit. Lead Blades not trivial to get but could roll an Oread I guess. I think there is one wand in game.

(2) Not sure what Base Value is.

(3) STR is 14 base + Bull's

(4) Divine Favor tops out at +3/+3 but Divine Power goes up to +6/+6

(5) Enhancement is +1 on the weapon +2 from Sacred Weapon enchanting the class gets. Eventually gets Brilliant Energy. Could use Magic Weapon, Greater here to get another +1.

(6) Good Hope was Encouraging Rod boost from TTT I think. Hope gives damage bonus, Heroism doesn't.

(7) Bracers are +2 AB/AC/Dam Competence vs Flying (Gargs, Vrocks, Derakni, Devarra) for 16k from main vendor. Worth investing in.

(8) Class gets Weapon Spec and later Greater Weapon Spec as essentially forced Bonus Combat Feats. Also gets Greater Weapon Focus that makes Mythic Focus worthwhile. All Warpriests can choose these since it counts as Fighter for Feats.

(9) Inspired Rage is Skald. Unlike Inspire Courage from Bard it's untyped. Downside is melee only.

(10) Mythic Light Armor Focus only works on Light weapons (and Rapiers). Perfect fit for Dual Sabers.

(11) Force is Crusader's Edge that Warpriest can cast on itself.

Inciter Sneaks kick in at lvl 12.

 

[Desiderius]

A look at a couple things on Inciter.



Most single-target control spells are Close range. Not Hold Person, it's Medium. Can see Inciter Aru on the right reaching the Evoker on the left. Useful while Inciter has Move Action Incited Rage so doesn't want to have to blow a Move to get into range. Also nice with Reach rod to get to casters before they can act during Surprise round where you can move or cast but not both.



Mythic Dazzling Display also comes into play here since it gives you options to use it for each of the four actions. Messed up and got out of order here, but with the scaling Intimidate/Bluff bonus on Inciter it can get there even with a tack on Swift Action despite the -15 malus. Aru here doesn't have Skill Focus Persuasion yet and is still passing the skill checks with help from Food and items. Blightmaw Ring will give another +2 DC for Enchantments, but burned Feats on Spell Pen instead of Spell Focus so not sure how reliable this would be on Unfair. There are a couple more DC Feats as well, but even with burning a Skald Talent on Weapon Focus not sure if its worth trying to get there vs just taking Rage Powers. Weakening Wound will be a must I think with the sharing of Rogue Sneak Talents at lvl 12. Not sure about Slow Reactions. Skald can do some decent damage in melee with the Sneaks it gets + Vitals so that may simply be better action econ than trying to beat saves.

 

[Nerevar]

This battle for Grey garrison has been super easy and fun this playthrough.

1 and a half hour haste ritual.

Also I am playing Wendu as 1 Fighter/x Hunter even though hunter is only a medium BAB class it has such a boosted pet with teamwork feats it is just too good.

 

[Desiderius]

Ran into first significant bug:

If you disable the CHR drain thing in the Fortress it comes back after visiting the Vendor outside and re-entering.

Also not sure if it's bug but Prot Arrows prevents Swarm damage and Spores damage too I think.

 

[jungl]

Wrath was okay but still somehow managed to be more slow paced then kingmaker which kind of kills the whole premise of mythic power. When I think of mythic power I think of raising a volcano out of the ground like in sacrifice not doing paper work in a medieval fortress. Rogue trader is also boring after chapter 1. Maybe one day owlfat will get it right.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

 

[Average Manatee]

Also I am playing Wendu as 1 Fighter/x Hunter even though hunter is only a medium BAB class it has such a boosted pet with teamwork feats it is just too good.

The only teamwork feat that really matters is outflank and you should just take it on your pet. I don't see how this has an advantage over something like a Ranger or Mad Dog Barbarian. Hunter is probably one of the worst examples of a 6-level caster class since it has no great unique spells and its a druidish spellbook focused on buffs acquired way too late and direct damage spells that always suck on a character build for melee.

EDIT: To clarify, Mad Dog effectively gets a free outflank on both it and the pet that also stacks with outflank, along with other pet bonuses, while Ranger shares their favored enemy bonus with their pet (which is vs. all demons if demonslayer). So their pets are gonna be better.

 

[Yosharian]

Haha that is perfect

 

[Desiderius]

It appears that Echolcation isn't giving Gaze immunity (to the Nabasu Gaze). Is this known issue? Haven't run much with an Alchemist before.

 

[Desiderius]

Also I am playing Wendu as 1 Fighter/x Hunter even though hunter is only a medium BAB class it has such a boosted pet with teamwork feats it is just too good.

The only teamwork feat that really matters is outflank and you should just take it on your pet. I don't see how this has an advantage over something like a Ranger or Mad Dog Barbarian. Hunter is probably one of the worst examples of a 6-level caster class since it has no great unique spells and its a druidish spellbook focused on buffs acquired way too late and direct damage spells that always suck on a character build for melee.

EDIT: To clarify, Mad Dog effectively gets a free outflank on both it and the pet that also stacks with outflank, along with other pet bonuses, while Ranger shares their favored enemy bonus with their pet (which is vs. all demons if demonslayer). So their pets are gonna be better.

Incorrect

Sux that Ranged Teamwork Feats aren't in game meaning that TW Feats don't do much for ranged (decent trade off for them in Wandering Marksman class) but for melee/casters there are several relevant ones in-game.

I'm biased because I play TTT which implements TT flanking making Pack Flanking good (and Hunter's Tactics the only way to give it permanently to your pet/mount) but there are several good melee TW Feats and the pet can trigger the caster ones for your Magus.

I've been over the value in Hunter Spellbook (Faerie Fire is a very good spell and the +3 caster levels over Ranger is gold in getting the Barkskins up and durations in line with rest of team), but Tandem Executioner trades the Spellbook for a lot of great abilities if you don't think you need it. Hunter can even do some save beating with Azata if you want to.

Biggest challenge is 3/4 without many inherent ways to boost AB (outside Divine Hound) but there are a ton of AoE effects for that. They just don't show up early and Owlcat stupidly nerfed the main TT solution for that problem by removing the Precise *Companion* Feat from the pet, which is the point of the ability. Doesn't do much good to have Outflank at lvl 2 if nobody else can get it then.

 

[Desiderius]

Longstrider is gold at lvl one and Frigid Touch a superb Standard Action if you can get around SR (big if!). Magic Fang with the extra 3 minutes of duration is good value to bypass DR/Magic before Mighty/Agile Fist amulets show up. Spontaneous gets more casts so doesn't need Abundant casting Mythic freeing you up for Shapeshifter +4 to physical stats which is easy to turn on with the Hunter Spellbook or Mythical Beast for pet to bypass DR permanently.

And don't sleep on Animal Focus! Hunter also has Martial Prof so can use Glaives in the Maze.

 

[rashiakas]

If I don't play on unfair I am locked out of cool rewards but if I play on unfair I have to pay attention and not just faceroll everything.

Maybe I just do a trickster martial now on hard or core or whatever and save the super Oracle for unfair. Wait I need to beat the DLCs again on unfair?

Fuck.

What rewards?

 

[MerchantKing]

It appears that Echolcation isn't giving Gaze immunity (to the Nabasu Gaze). Is this known issue? Haven't run much with an Alchemist before.

It's not supposed to give gaze immunity.

 

[Average Manatee]

Incorrect

OK

Sux that Ranged Teamwork Feats aren't in game meaning that TW Feats don't do much for ranged (decent trade off for them in Wandering Marksman class) but for melee/casters there are several relevant ones in-game.

I'm biased because I play TTT which implements TT flanking making Pack Flanking good (and Hunter's Tactics the only way to give it permanently to your pet/mount) but there are several good melee TW Feats and the pet can trigger the caster ones for your Magus.

I see I'm incorrect because I failed to take into account feats that don't actually exist in the game. Makes sense.

I've been over the value in Hunter Spellbook (Faerie Fire is a very good spell

I will give you this as a modest advantage.

+3 caster levels over Ranger is gold in getting the Barkskins up and durations in line with rest of team)

bruh cmon. who cares about spell durations, you can rest all you want in this game anyway. If it was extending seconds spells to minutes it'd be great but it isn't. That's about all that actually matters when it comes to buff durations.

but Tandem Executioner trades the Spellbook for a lot of great abilities if you don't think you need it

I didn't say anything about a class he didn't take, I talked about the class he did. But while I do like the Tandem Hunter abilities losing the spellbook is an incredible drawback given all the useful stuff in there. Losing Sense Vitals alone is like a quarter of your damage output.

Longstrider is gold at lvl one and Frigid Touch a superb Standard Action if you can get around SR (big if!). Magic Fang with the extra 3 minutes of duration is good value to bypass DR/Magic before Mighty/Agile Fist amulets show up. Spontaneous gets more casts so doesn't need Abundant casting Mythic freeing you up for Shapeshifter +4 to physical stats which is easy to turn on with the Hunter Spellbook or Mythical Beast for pet to bypass DR permanently.

And don't sleep on Animal Focus!

These are things that can all be categorized as "stuff Ranger already has" and "stuff that helps deal improve damage slightly", when you would have much better damage output to begin with on ranger.

I'll sleep on animal focus because +2/4/6 strength to just a pet is obviously worse than +2/4/6/8/10 AB and Damage to you and your pet (on a class with naturally better BAB, to boot).

So in summary, the actual advantage Hunter has over Demonslayer is Faerie fire.

Hunter really needed either something powerful and unique like what Tandem Executioner as a base class ability or just full BAB progression. The unfortunate fact is that free teamwork feats is massively overvalued in WotR for any class that gets it. When you realize that, and that mid BAB makes you a druid with level 6 casting rather than level 9, the base class falls apart. Archetypes definitely make it better by switching out useless team work feat bonuses for other stuff but it still struggles.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah hunter is basically redundant.

 

[Desiderius]

Losing Sense Vitals alone is like a quarter of your damage output.

Suck less.

These are things that can all be categorized as "stuff Ranger already has" and "stuff that helps deal improve damage slightly", when you would have much better damage output to begin with on ranger.

(1) Longstrider at lvl 1: nope

(2) Frigid Touch: nope

(3) Magic Fang that lasts long enough for lvls 1-7 (where it's good): nope

(4) Extra casts from Spontaneous and three more levels of progression: nope

(5) Buffs that don't wear off way before rest of team pre-Defense where there's a lot to do before rest, in Garrison, in Leper's Smile, Lost Chapel, and in Drezen (Corruptions back on the menu!): nope

(6) Faerie Fire for Zach, Conjurers, Shadow Votaries, PD, etc: nope

(7) Full Barkskins with more casts not modest

I play Ranger. I love Ranger. Hunter is way less of a headache on the spell-side when it most matters.

Nerfing Precise Companion (and leaving Ranged TW Feats out of the game) sadly borks its offense during that same part of the game where that's most needed, but Animal Focus helps somewhat with that.

Ranger gets there by midgame on the casting side, Hunter on the offense side.

 

[ga♥]

so, how is the new DLC content?

 

[Desiderius]

I'll sleep on animal focus because +2/4/6 strength to just a pet is obviously worse than +2/4/6/8/10 AB and Damage to you and your pet (on a class with naturally better BAB, to boot).

It's always on for pet at lvl one. I've mostly played Leopard where the DEX one is really nice. I focus more on AC and Saves and let the damage take care of itself. Once Enhancement bonuses are widely available you can switch to the Skill boosting ones.

So in summary, the actual advantage Hunter has over Demonslayer is Faerie fire.

Never played Demonslayer. Other Rangers are better. Hasn't base game fixed Favored Enemy Outsider yet?

Favored Enema is great, no argument. Hunter has Swift Instant where needed.

Played a ton of Hunter in CotW where the class is correctly implemented (ranged TW and Precise Companion) and added unique capabilties. Wrath implementation makes me sad but still has its advantages. Spell utility early where its most needed and offense is fine by midgame.

I see I'm incorrect because I failed to take into account feats that don't actually exist in the game. Makes sense.

Again my TTT bias enters in here, but base game has:

Outflank, Shake it Off, Tandem Trip, Back to Back, and Seize the Moment (doesn't require Flanking vs foes with Improved Uncanny)

Back to Back has an item that boosts it to +4.

Shield Wall is solid but obv not with a Pet. Allied Spellcaster probably worth it with a Magus in team (version I'm playing also boosts Concentration, not sure if it's in base game).

Are there six good ones? Probably not, but most of the game is played before you have six. I'll admit to favoring Hunter classes that trade them away lol.

 

[Desiderius]

Saves, what are they good for?



Minagho/Staunton fight on Hard. Note that Ember failed the save, but she's an Elf so Immune to Sleep!

Hard Blightmaw:



Daeran is lvl 10 Mantis Zealot, Lann Kinetic Sharpshooter.

Lann has (TTT) Mythic Shatter Defenses (applies to whole team). Inciter Aru got him Intimidated with help from scaling Intimidate bonus from Serpent's Tongue ability. I think that even though Lann failed to penetrate the SR that the hit (vs Touch) still counted and Shattered Defenses. Corruptor Mythic + Spit Venom applying no save Blind vs Touch can do the same thing. Spit Venom ignores SR. Can be Extended for two round Blind.

And yes, Hunter gets Spit Venom while Ranger doesn't. Also has Death Ward and the higher lvl Nature's Ally Summons (the good ones) even if you don't want to mess with beating Saves. Eventually gets the Mass Stat boosts to free up slots for casters.

 

[Jermu]

Happy pride month everyone

 

[Diggfinger]

Gents,
Path of the Righteous Mythic Edition -70% right now on GOG (26 Euro-bucks)
Yay or nay...?

Includes all (or at least 3?) DLCs...

Kindda into simpler/shorter games atm but this looks sweeet.
Find it more appealing than the Divinity games