Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[drgames]

Andy K: In terms of writing, quest design, and world-building, Obsidian is at the top of its game in Deadfire.

 

[Quillon]

Both PoE games' greatest mistake was not having a main narrative that grabs the player: Become a Watcher from the get go and still be dealing with being a Watcher by the end of Deadfire. Kingmaker has the tried and true "rise to powa" which single handedly pushes it ahead; multiplies the enjoyment of anything you do along the way, otherwise Kingmaker's writing is objectively worse than either PoE game in every way(maybe its better on brevity vs PoE1).

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Both PoE games' greatest mistake was not having a main narrative that grabs the player: Become a Watcher from the get go and still be dealing with being a Watcher by the end of Deadfire. Kingmaker has the tried and true "rise to powa" which single handedly pushes it ahead; multiplies the enjoyment of anything you do along the way, otherwise Kingmaker's writing is objectively worse than either PoE game in every way(maybe its better on brevity vs PoE1).

also do not forget d20 murderhoboing xp.
the contribution of combat xp as incentive/reward for gameplay is very significant.

 

[Lacrymas]

There is xp for combat in PoE.

 

[Roguey]

Kingmaker already has lower player retention than Deadfire

Because it's significantly longer.
Deadfire Playtime total: 34:37 (average) 16:10 (median)
Kingmaker Playtime total: 47:30 (average) 29:19 (median)

Then you look at their diminishing concurrent players, Kingmaker comes out slightly ahead.
Deadfire
July 2018 1,638.1 -1,150.0 -41.25% 3,376
June 2018 2,788.2 -6,684.8 -70.57% 7,004
May 2018 9,473.0 +9,463.7 +101797.46% 22,639

Kingmaker
Last 30 Days 2,528.6 -964.9 -27.62% 5,612
November 2018 3,493.5 -5,159.4 -59.63% 8,490
October 2018 8,652.9 -4,141.0 -32.37% 18,869

 

[Reina]

Kingmaker has the tried and true "rise to powa" which single handedly pushes it ahead; multiplies the enjoyment of anything you do along the way, otherwise Kingmaker's writing is objectively worse than either PoE game in every way(maybe its better on brevity vs PoE1).

Kingmaker's genius is in its simplicity. Most stories struggle with one major element: making reader/player care about what happens. PoE is the best example.

Does player care about the MC being a Watcher? Probably not. Unless he carefully reads, analyzes and digests all sources available to him (and majorty certainly doesn't, because it's a bloody video game), player probably fully understands "what is this Watcher thing?" mid-chapter two. By that time there's no drama, no tension related to this issue.
Does player care about gods and their nature? Why should he? Before act 3, game barely hints that its gods are different from usual fantasy pantheon.
Does player care about villain and the entire hollowborn plot? Probably not, because it's rather cliched, classic RPG adventure with expected twist here and there. And it starts in worst possible way, with weird terms and bombastic narrative thrown at player before he learns most basic things about the setting.

Compare it to BG1. In that game, main story is revealed only in later arcs, when player is already immersed in the setting, has connection to its characters nad MC, and it doesn't use weird/oversophisticated expressions to explain yourself. And it uses clear, tested hook:

"You're progeny of the god of murder, and your half-sibling wants to kill you and claim the divine inheritance" Simple and powerful. Good use of cliches, everything is understandable, works as a justification for PC's adventures.
"You're a watcher. You hunt a guy who has some connection to your past soul and now makes children soulless husks for his goddess" raises so many questions I don't even know what to start.
"You're a watcher. You died, god took part of your soul and now rampages through some exotic archipelago. Other god ressurrected you to stop him" is even worse in that regard.

Meanwhile, Kingmaker uses most basic, yet powerful hook.
Chapter 1: You adventure and claim land for yourself.
Chapter 2+: You develop and defend that land.

Boom, it works. Works, because it uses simple means. You care about the story, because the story isn't about some foreign concepts and overblown dangers, but about your deeds. You don't care about Caed Nua, because it came to you relatively effortlessly. You don't care about Dyrwood or Dreadfire Archipelago, because it's a foreign, strange world you have no connection with. You care about your barony in P:K, because you carved it up yourself in chapter I. You don't care about Eothas running rampant, because you don't know what it means, what's really bad about it. You care about Vordekai, or Iorvetti, or Lantern King, because those bastards dared to go against fruit of your labours. You don't care about being watcher, because it's a title given to you. You care about being baron/king, because you earned that title.

 

[FreeKaner]

Both PoE games' greatest mistake was not having a main narrative that grabs the player: Become a Watcher from the get go and still be dealing with being a Watcher by the end of Deadfire. Kingmaker has the tried and true "rise to powa" which single handedly pushes it ahead; multiplies the enjoyment of anything you do along the way, otherwise Kingmaker's writing is objectively worse than either PoE game in every way(maybe its better on brevity vs PoE1).

Also direct sequel for no reason at all.

 

[Efe]

most of deadfire side content is going where you shouldnt be going. Eothas gonna fuck shit up and i should hurry to X? fuck that go to Y. which makes deadfire at 30hours stretched out without meaningful progress.
kingmaker does it much better.

 

[FreeKaner]

most of deadfire side content is going where you shouldnt be going. Eothas gonna fuck shit up and i should hurry to X? fuck that go to Y. which makes deadfire at 30hours stretched out without meaningful progress.
kingmaker does it much better.

This is only because they structured their story this way. You can fuck around in New Vegas forever and nothing about it feels wrong, because in part it's your actions that set the machinations of plot forward and the side activity seamlessly blends into main plot. This is also why epic journeys and loose, open-world narrative design does not match well.

It's not necessary to always put complete focus on main plot, but if you make a main plot with decisive urgency with such far-reaching consequences then you should make the narrative focused and revolving around the main plot. If you make a world where there is lots of side activity, exploration and with loose narrative structure then your main plot should stay more mundane and personal.

So much of it is just them trying to do BG1 > BG2, then not understanding what even is BG2. The writing in BG2 is not necessarily better, but you get exactly what you see and much of it is a linear story-telling and adventure. In both PoE games why the plot didn't hook or feel compelling is about the director's decision to make this a grand journey of epic proportions about Gods and destiny, then not getting how could it feel like story didn't matter when it's so important. This is also why White March feels better too.

It is not necessarily about being more or less focused, it's about matching the focus with narrative design. Also epic journeys of saving the world suck as stories for RPGs about exploration and getting lost in a different world. Stop making everything so epic and "philosophical". They try to be epic like BG, except also try to be loose like New Vegas, so they end up being neither. Manage the fucking scale.

This is why I think I also love cyberpunk, you are rarely saving the world in cyberpunk.

 

[Haplo]

most of deadfire side content is going where you shouldnt be going. Eothas gonna fuck shit up and i should hurry to X? fuck that go to Y. which makes deadfire at 30hours stretched out without meaningful progress.

Like almost any cRPG ever.
(okay, there are a few exceptions)

 

[Haplo]

Citation needed? There are really few games where side-questing doesn't detract form the main quest urgency.

Well, maybe not the best example, but the Witcher 3: Ciri is kidnapped, Wild Hunt is coming, but you travel, enjoy scenery porn, solve peasant problems, attend balls, meet kings, nobles, bards and so on.

 

[Sailor Woedica]

Wonder who won the best RPG of the year from PC Gamer?: https://www.pcgamer.com/best-rpg-2018-pillars-of-eternity-2-deadfire/

Best RPG 2018: Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Obsidian's seafaring sequel dazzled us with a great world and fantastic quest design this year.

Our best RPG of 2018 award goes to Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity 2. It got fewer nominations than the other winners this year, but the staff members who voted for it made it clear how passionate they are about the game. Don't forget to check out the rest of our GOTY picks and personal picks as they happen.

Andy K: In terms of writing, quest design, and world-building, Obsidian is at the top of its game in Deadfire. This nautical sequel continues the story established in the first Pillars, but is standalone enough that you can dive into it without any prior knowledge. And what a grand adventure it is, making you a ship captain and letting you sail the deadly, alluring waters of the tropical Deadfire Archipelago. For the most part this is a classic Infinity Engine-style RPG, with reams of vivid, descriptive text, enchanted items with lengthy descriptions, dungeon diving, and magical beasts. But being able to crew and maintain a ship, and sail freely between islands, gives it a compelling seafaring twist.

Compared to the green and leafy Dyrwood, the relatively familiar fantasy setting of the original game, the Deadfire is a beguiling, strange, alien place, and uncovering its well-realised culture, politics, and history makes spending time there a delight. There are dozens of rounded, interesting characters to meet on your journey, quests that start small then spiral into something wild and unexpected, and a whole lot of deep, tactical combat to indulge in. The standout moment has to be Fort Deadlight, which sees you setting some amusing Hitman-inspired traps to get revenge on a villainous pirate.

Steven: What I love the most about Deadfire isn't the excellent story, characters, and writing, but how smart Obsidian has gotten at being able to distill all that information in a way that doesn't require me to keep a lore wiki open in the background. Pillars of Eternity was an intimidating game to get into, in part because it front-loaded every bit of dialogue with proper nouns and slang that I didn't understand. Deadfire does the same, but handy tooltips give you useful bits of context when you need them, so I'm spending less time rifling through a journal and more time enjoying what's happening on screen.

Fraser: Pillars of Eternity was a fantastic CRPG that managed to be a lot more than nostalgia fodder, but it still generally stayed within the lines, with the Infinity Engine games serving as a cornerstone. Deadfire is bolder. Sure, the systems are familiar, but the setting, tone and absurdly broad roleplaying options help it escape the shadow of Baldur’s Gate 2 and the rest of the gang. It’s a freewheeling pirate adventure, a sometimes unsettling story about colonialism and conquest, and even when it delves into the familiar fantasy realm of gods and prophecy, it always leaves the door open to something unexpected.

I felt like I was playing with a DM rather than just playing through adventures written by people miles away months and possibly years ago. From the get-go, I had a character in mind, and Obsidian let me play him without any concessions. It felt like genuine roleplaying; I wasn’t just picking the closest out of a couple of options. It realised, for instance, that there might be several good reasons for me, a foul pirate, to do a seemingly nice things and noble quests, giving me appropriate choices for a shitty person. I never had to stomach any dissonance just to experience a quest.

Ahh so soo sooo well deserved!!! Pillars of Eternity III is going to be soo that snatched girl in the Microsoft family next gen!

 

[Parabalus]

Edit : I already gave you an example. Skyrim has 94% positive reviews in the last months. It's a game which relies on mashing your mouse button and potion key while frantically killing skelingtons and dragons. A game where it takes 15 hours to kill a dragon, encounter a daedra and already have experienced the best that the game has to offer. It's utter shit, but then again, it'd require a proper review to explain. I suggest you take a look at Oblivion's review, as many of its blatant & terrible flaws are also in its sequel.

Skyrim not being the type of game you want to play doesn't mean it's a shit game. It's like complaining about CoD, GTA or RDR.

 

[MajorMace]

But I'm not complaining about CoD, GTA or RDR (or FIFA, or Candy Crush Saga).
You try to turn my post into a bland "popular = shit, i'm true hardcore connaisseur of true gayms". I like some popular games (you know, when they're good) like the Rockstar ones you've quoted, but also stuff like The Witcher, Dishonored, nuTomb Raider 2013, the first Mass Effect even...

My point was that said stats were indicators of popularity, not of quality. And there are myriad of reasons that make a game popular, including gimmicks such as the ones featured in Skyrim (physics, day/night cycled npcs, complete freedom of exploration etc). It's just objectively bad, from the cheap voice acting which turns every npc into a tiny group of 8-9 dudes that you meet again and again, to the fact that there's a complete disregard for world building in terms of gameplay - meaning you not only get to see epic shit at level 10, but you also get to venture the area as archmage, thief-in-chief, leader of werewolves brotherhood and thayn of literally every single city all at once, without an ounce of reactivity anywhere.
There's no room for roleplaying (besides retarded larping), no sense of exploration (level-scaling coupled with linear dungeons littered with "pattern check" puzzles obliterates any pleasure the player could have), not a single interesting character (I mean hey, maybe there are some at the end, how would I know). I couldn't precisely or exhaustively tell you why it's popular anymore that I could explain why people would play CoD instead of any good multiplayer FPS, or League of Legends instead of actual fighting games, but it's goddamn popular. Then again, so was Justin Bieber etc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Elex]

Don't forget Vault Dweller's rule of sequels when Kingmaker 2 inevitably bombs.

they can’tmake a kingmaker 2, kingmaker even with no DLC is a full complete campaign module.

the next game will simply be another pathfinder game with only the ruleset and the setting in common.


(or they going to make the first real 5e d&d game)

 

[Elex]

I have 77 hours logged in Deadfire. I pre-ordered the game and beat it within a couple weeks of it coming out. I don't think the game sold poorly because it's bad. I think it was marketed really poorly, just like Tyranny. Obsidian chose a publisher whose YT channel has 2.5k subs (probably because Feargus had burned bridges with everybody else) and so nobody actually generated hype for Deadfire. The only people who even knew it was coming out were people who liked the first game enough to follow the dev blogs.

pathfinder kingmaker have even less marketing.
crtical role voiceover alone is a big marketing investment.

 

[2house2fly]

People will remember and bring up Pathfinder: Kingmaker in the future when talking about great RPGs. No one will do so regarding PoE. That is the difference at play here, and it has little to do with player whatever.

98% of those people won't know what they're talking about, because they never finished the game.

Because it's significantly longer.
Deadfire Playtime total: 34:37 (average) 16:10 (median)
Kingmaker Playtime total: 47:30 (average) 29:19 (median)

Then you look at their diminishing concurrent players, Kingmaker comes out slightly ahead.
Deadfire
July 2018 1,638.1 -1,150.0 -41.25% 3,376
June 2018 2,788.2 -6,684.8 -70.57% 7,004
May 2018 9,473.0 +9,463.7 +101797.46% 22,639

Kingmaker
Last 30 Days 2,528.6 -964.9 -27.62% 5,612
November 2018 3,493.5 -5,159.4 -59.63% 8,490
October 2018 8,652.9 -4,141.0 -32.37% 18,869

Significantly longer wouldn't matter if it was significantly better.

It's amusing to see people make comments like "it pulls you in with a compelling hook that keeps you playing" about a game that has been completed by 2% of its players

 

[Efe]

All it needs is a small tie in. They could make it happen anywhere in the the 1000 year nysrissa terrorized stoeln lands.

Citation needed? There are really few games where side-questing doesn't detract form the main quest urgency.

Well, maybe not the best example, but the Witcher 3: Ciri is kidnapped, Wild Hunt is coming, but you travel, enjoy scenery porn, solve peasant problems, attend balls, meet kings, nobles, bards and so on.

and it is equally flawed for it but is saved by its world & characters. a single side content in w3 hooks player more than all of deadfire combined.
iirc and you put aside main quest too long yennefer etc bitch about it to you too.

 

[sin]

I played Pillars II a little bit right after the release and while I saw potential back then, I've decided to wait until the final version is released. Since the Forgotten Sanctum DLC is out and they have patched it to the v4.0, could you please advise whether it's worth returning now or should I give it a few more months?

 

[Lacrymas]

It's still glitchy as fuck, I'd wait a bit.

 

[pomenitul]

Didn't experience any glitches or bugs per se, just disappointingly variable FPS, but we've already gone over this and there's nothing game-breaking about it anyway.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, there is. I can't continue on from Vilario's Rest because the dockworker triggers Eder's dialogue. I've tried reinstalling the game without mods and it's still there. So, yes, there are still game-breaking glitches. I've opened a thread about it on Obs' forums, but they are woefully slow.

 

[aweigh]

never understood why some ppl think a game letting you do whatever freely and without pressure is "bad game design" just because the plot is waiting for you... i imagine these are the same kinds of people who sperged out because in 24 series jack bauer never took a dump even though each episode was sequential.

a game should always game first and plot second. ALWAYS. game first.

 

[Quillon]

never understood why some ppl think a game letting you do whatever freely and without pressure is "bad game design" just because the plot is waiting for you...

Point is plot shouldn't give you that [false] sense of urgency if it'll wait for you.

 

[aweigh]

Why not? Who cares if a meteor is coming, I want to be able to do all of the game content at a leisurely pace. It's bad game design not to let me do so. We're not watching a movie; we're playing a game. Fun and interactivity should always come first, along with player choice.