Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Riddler]

Although the main story is pretty lame, I'm really enjoying finally committing to a full playthrough of this game with all the DLCs (in TB mode). Multiclassing is great, the combat system is intuitive but not brainless, and there is, wonder of wonders, even some fun and memorable writing, like the autistic Goldpact Paladin in the Gullet.
Kingmaker is still my GOTY 2018 but Deadfire is a solid 2nd place (although I am admittedly biased toward games that let me be a pirate).

I get the feeling that Deadfire is hated way beyond how much it should be. Is it perfect? No. Is it as good as PFKM? Hell no. Is it still a great game? Definitely.

Deadfire might be unfairly maligned but it isn't great. Deadfire is a good game with enough competence in I that you get pissed off that it isn't great.

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the faction stuff nice, plenty of fun quests, the best sneak system in any isometric game, great itemisation, etc.

But the game also has a truly atrocious main quest, poor writing, very poor connection between the faction stuff and the main quest, uninteresting main character, companions that bore you to tears(nevermind the romances), a combat system that still isn't particularly enjoyable except for a small subset of players (it has gotten a ton better though) and some of the worst music encountered in a videogame.

I bet all of this would have been forgiven and the game praised to all heavens had the writing just been on the level on some of the earlier of Obsidians offerings.

 

[Mustawd]

the fixed isometric "painterly" backgrounds thing PoE's got going definitely has its charms,

What’s painterly about it? It’s a rendered image of 3D models....

I agree it looks fantastic, but no one painted anything (outside preproduction touch ups).

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Although the main story is pretty lame, I'm really enjoying finally committing to a full playthrough of this game with all the DLCs (in TB mode). Multiclassing is great, the combat system is intuitive but not brainless, and there is, wonder of wonders, even some fun and memorable writing, like the autistic Goldpact Paladin in the Gullet.
Kingmaker is still my GOTY 2018 but Deadfire is a solid 2nd place (although I am admittedly biased toward games that let me be a pirate).

I get the feeling that Deadfire is hated way beyond how much it should be. Is it perfect? No. Is it as good as PFKM? Hell no. Is it still a great game? Definitely.

Deadfire might be unfairly maligned but it isn't great. Deadfire is a good game with enough competence in I that you get pissed off that it isn't great.

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the faction stuff nice, plenty of fun quests, the best sneak system in any isometric game, great itemisation, etc.

But the game also has a truly atrocious main quest, poor writing, very poor connection between the faction stuff and the main quest, uninteresting main character, companions that bore you to teara(nevermind the romances), a combat system that still isn't particularly enjoyable except for a small subset of players (it has gotten a ton better though) and some of the worst music encountered in a videogame.

It bet all of this would have been forgiven and the game praised to all heavens had the writing just been on the level on some of the earlier of Obsidians offerings.

Well, there can't be any real debate about matters of taste. What you find poor i find well done and vice versa. But there's no harm in sharing personal opinions:

Atrocious main quest? Don't know yet, haven't gotten far into it. Too busy with side stuff. It does seem promising to me, because i really like the lore of the game and so i'm invested in the struggle.
Poor connection between faction stuff and main story? Correct since the lead designer said as much. <This is where I 100% agree with you on the frustration due to missing greatness part.
Boring companions: Some. Eder and Aloth and the Furry can go fuck themselves. I liked the rest of them.
Combat system: I love it. It's great. I get it that this a mostly TB-centric RPG forum, but i like RTwP. I wouldn't say only small subset of players like it though.
Music: It's pretty great to be honest.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Boring companions: Some. Eder and Aloth and the Furry can go fuck themselves. I liked the rest of them.

You're a terrible person

 

[Riddler]

Although the main story is pretty lame, I'm really enjoying finally committing to a full playthrough of this game with all the DLCs (in TB mode). Multiclassing is great, the combat system is intuitive but not brainless, and there is, wonder of wonders, even some fun and memorable writing, like the autistic Goldpact Paladin in the Gullet.
Kingmaker is still my GOTY 2018 but Deadfire is a solid 2nd place (although I am admittedly biased toward games that let me be a pirate).

I get the feeling that Deadfire is hated way beyond how much it should be. Is it perfect? No. Is it as good as PFKM? Hell no. Is it still a great game? Definitely.

Deadfire might be unfairly maligned but it isn't great. Deadfire is a good game with enough competence in I that you get pissed off that it isn't great.

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the faction stuff nice, plenty of fun quests, the best sneak system in any isometric game, great itemisation, etc.

But the game also has a truly atrocious main quest, poor writing, very poor connection between the faction stuff and the main quest, uninteresting main character, companions that bore you to teara(nevermind the romances), a combat system that still isn't particularly enjoyable except for a small subset of players (it has gotten a ton better though) and some of the worst music encountered in a videogame.

It bet all of this would have been forgiven and the game praised to all heavens had the writing just been on the level on some of the earlier of Obsidians offerings.

Well, there can't be any real debate about matters of taste. What you find poor i find well done and vice versa. But there's no harm in sharing personal opinions:

Atrocious main quest? Don't know yet, haven't gotten far into it. Too busy with side stuff. It does seem promising to me, because i really like the lore of the game and so i'm invested in the struggle.
Poor connection between faction stuff and main story? Correct since the lead designer said as much. <This is where I 100% agree with you on the frustration due to missing greatness part.
Boring companions: Some. Eder and Aloth and the Furry can go fuck themselves. I liked the rest of them.
Combat system: I love it. It's great. I get it that this a mostly TB-centric RPG forum, but i like RTwP. I wouldn't say only small subset of players like it though.
Music: It's pretty great to be honest.

Get back you have finished the game.

As for the music I should have written that the original music composed for this game is terrible, not that all music is terrible. The music from PoE (especially WM) as well as the shanties were good.

 

[RaptorRex888]

I guess I just have a tolerance for being subjected to a boring main quest as long as the side quests are good, most of my favourite games are like this. I struggle to think of any RPG where the main quest can be pointed at and said to have the most interesting and well developed writing and gameplay mechanics in the entire game (I know you will though). They almost always start out strong then devolve into bland tedium until the climax (which are usually good or terrible). Its hard for a developer to keep the players interest in one objective over the long course of an RPG, in comparison to other genres of games.

I find it funny that POE 2 gets criticised for having a supposedly critical main quest where if left unresolved will end in your characters or the worlds demise but you spend most of your time involved in ultimately meaningless factional and other stuff. While true, this can be applied to almost every RPG created (I know you will point out ones that aren't), even games where the main quest does not feature a world-ending threat or some such its very hard to justify your character going around running errands for people when they should focus on their supposedly pivotal mission. Funnily enough, some of the only RPG's that this accusation can't be leveled at is Bioware games, where the mainquest usually involves you gathering allies for a a large battle at the end, these gathering missions essentially serve as sidequests as they very rarely have any narrative or mechanical connection with the main threat present in the game until you of course remind the stupid elves that they have to help you now that you took care of the cool werewolves for them.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Kingmaker's main story was great (up until Pitax) but it is definitely an outlier because its structure is pretty unique and because the urgency isn't fake like most games.
Arcanum's main story worked well as a backdrop because it was minimal, not really time-sensitive, writing wasn't retarded, and it was designed to encourage exploration of the setting.
The 2012 Game of Thrones RPG has a great main story, very mixed bag of a game otherwise but they really nailed the story and characters.

 

[chuft]

How does the combat speed in PoE2 compare to PoE? I found it to go way too fast in PoE (and I mean when I had it at half speed) and I couldn't tell what was going on half the time, and a lot of spell/item/skill effects were too subtle because they increased things by a fraction of a second or something instead of "an extra attack per round" or "double movement" or something D&D-ish like that. Part of it was me not comprehending the game system but part was definitely how fast combat goes when you let it run. I like to see spell animations, hear complete sounds etc so pausing every half second was not very satisfying either.

Did they slow down the combat speed at all in POE2? Or do you have to use turn based mode if you want to have a clear idea of what is going on?

 

[Lacrymas]

The combat speed is way slower, but since the UI is so terrible again it's still hard to know what exactly is going on. TB is definitely more manageable in that regard.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

How does the combat speed in PoE2 compare to PoE? I found it to go way too fast in PoE (and I mean when I had it at half speed) and I couldn't tell what was going on half the time, and a lot of spell/item/skill effects were too subtle because they increased things by a fraction of a second or something instead of "an extra attack per round" or "double movement" or something D&D-ish like that. Part of it was me not comprehending the game system but part was definitely how fast combat goes when you let it run. I like to see spell animations, hear complete sounds etc so pausing every half second was not very satisfying either.

Did they slow down the combat speed at all in POE2? Or do you have to use turn based mode if you want to have a clear idea of what is going on?

It's slower and overall much more manageable than POE1. This was one of my biggest issues with the first game and i feel like they've done a lot to make it better. Still, i do wish there was an option to make it run even slower.

 

[Lady_Error]

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the faction stuff nice, plenty of fun quests, the best sneak system in any isometric game, great itemisation, etc.

Yes.

But the game also has a truly atrocious main quest, poor writing, very poor connection between the faction stuff and the main quest, uninteresting main character, companions that bore you to tears(nevermind the romances), a combat system that still isn't particularly enjoyable except for a small subset of players (it has gotten a ton better though) and some of the worst music encountered in a videogame.

No, to almost all the points.

1) What exactly is atrocious about the main quest? It is quite short, yes. But the whole concept of the statue from the endless paths under your castle rising up and wreaking havoc is great.

2) What poor writing? It was just fine - not too verbose and not pointless.

3) Who said there needs to be a good connection between the factions stuff and the main quest? You just need to git gud to face the god and that is what the factions stuff is for.

4) Companions are not great, but most are pretty good or at least okay. I love Mirke, too bad she is just a sidekick.

5) Combat is quite enjoable with the myriad of combinations you can try out. The only missing thing are hard counters, making mage battles less fun than in BG.

 

[Lacrymas]

1) It's not a great premise, especially coming after the far more interesting setups from PoE1.
2) It IS pointless and it isn't coherent, we've talked about this extensively.
3) Because it's pointless, it's only there to waste time, and *good* writing doesn't work like this.
4) Meh, they are more boring and flavorless than anything else.

 

[Lady_Error]

1) It's not a great premise, especially coming after the far more interesting setups from PoE1.

You liked the Hollowborn crisis more than this? Well, I guess the shapeshifting 10000 years old guy was pretty good as the villain.

3) Because it's pointless, it's only there to waste time, and *good* writing doesn't work like this.

Again, the factions stuff is part of you getting good and powerful enough to face the God. Nothing pointless about that.

 

[gurugeorge]

the fixed isometric "painterly" backgrounds thing PoE's got going definitely has its charms,

What’s painterly about it? It’s a rendered image of 3D models....

I agree it looks fantastic, but no one painted anything (outside preproduction touch ups).

"Painterly" doesn't necessarily mean "painted." I'm referring to the intent the developers had, to imitate the feel of the hand-painted backgrounds of BG. I'm aware that they use 3-d modeling in their process.

 

[Lacrymas]

You liked the Hollowborn crisis more than this? Well, I guess the shapeshifting 10000 years old guy was pretty good as the villain.

I meant setups as in sequel hooks, not necessarily what PoE1 was about (which is nothing at all). Act 1 could've concluded the Eothas business and his passing could've created the luminous adra, so the main quest can continue with the factions trying to get the luminous adra. Then there are interesting political questions and issues raised by that and etc. PoE2 is the most unfocused RPG I have ever played and that comes in the context of a genre that is normally considered to be very unfocused.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

The graphics are absolutely beautiful, the faction stuff nice, plenty of fun quests, the best sneak system in any isometric game, great itemisation, etc.

Yes.

But the game also has a truly atrocious main quest, poor writing, very poor connection between the faction stuff and the main quest, uninteresting main character, companions that bore you to tears(nevermind the romances), a combat system that still isn't particularly enjoyable except for a small subset of players (it has gotten a ton better though) and some of the worst music encountered in a videogame.

No, to almost all the points.

1) What exactly is atrocious about the main quest? It is quite short, yes. But the whole concept of the statue from the endless paths under your castle rising up and wreaking havoc is great.

2) What poor writing? It was just fine - not too verbose and not pointless.

3) Who said there needs to be a good connection between the factions stuff and the main quest? You just need to git gud to face the god and that is what the factions stuff is for.

4) Companions are not great, but most are pretty good or at least okay. I love Mirke, too bad she is just a sidekick.

5) Combat is quite enjoable with the myriad of combinations you can try out. The only missing thing are hard counters, making mage battles less fun than in BG.

I agree with most of this. I just played more of the story (up to after Hosongo and the convo you have with the Gods). So far it's very well written imo and really engaging and interesting. I know some people hate the Gods aspect of the story but i think it's more subjective than anything. Personally i like them quite a bit and the dynamics and metaphysics of the world of Eora are very unique and interesting to me. I'll refrain from commenting until i've played more though, but i'll say this, i find the quest after Eothas and figuring him out much more interesting than the Leaden Key story. It also helps that this time around you have a very clear motivation as to why you are doing the things you do. In PoE 1, i remember never having a good answer when people asked me what i was going to do when i reached the big bad. I didn't know, because i didn't care enough to invest. I didn't understand my role in all of it.

As for companions, i only have issues with Eder and Aloth (the two that are from the first game's main campaign). I never liked them and probably never will. I find them to be single-issue companions and that is never interesting to me. (Eder = saints-war, Aloth = insecure elf). They just don't have enough dynamism as the other companions.

As for factions not being tied to the main story, my having (or not having) and issue with it will depend on the outcome of the story and ending slides. I still have to wait and see. If all my actions end up being nullified or not even mentioned then i would mind that quite a bit because it will feel like wasted effort.

As for combat and the RPG elements in general, all i can say is that i love how many unique build variations it allows, while having each one of those builds have totally different playstyles. I'm playing as rogue for MC this time around and it is immensely different than the priest class i tried before. Having RPG stats matter in dialogues is always a great thing (and there's tons of that here), and the quests allow for many different approaches, the combat itself looks and sounds great and is a real joy to play. I don't understand the criticisms for it tbh. Again, i know most people here belong to the TB camp (and i like TB quite a bit as well), but the RTwP in PoE II is one of the most competent systems i've seen.

 

[Mustawd]

the fixed isometric "painterly" backgrounds thing PoE's got going definitely has its charms,

What’s painterly about it? It’s a rendered image of 3D models....

I agree it looks fantastic, but no one painted anything (outside preproduction touch ups).

"Painterly" doesn't necessarily mean "painted." I'm referring to the intent the developers had, to imitate the feel of the hand-painted backgrounds of BG. I'm aware that they use 3-d modeling in their process.

But BG didn’t have hand painted backgrounds either....cuz those were 3D models too..

Ehh, I guess technically some of the ground textures were “painted”.

Spoiler

Anyhow, I get your point.

 

[gurugeorge]

the fixed isometric "painterly" backgrounds thing PoE's got going definitely has its charms,

What’s painterly about it? It’s a rendered image of 3D models....

I agree it looks fantastic, but no one painted anything (outside preproduction touch ups).

"Painterly" doesn't necessarily mean "painted." I'm referring to the intent the developers had, to imitate the feel of the hand-painted backgrounds of BG. I'm aware that they use 3-d modeling in their process.

But BG didn’t have hand painted backgrounds either....cuz those were 3D models too..

Ehh, I guess technically some of the ground textures were “painted”.


Anyhow, I get your point.

From: http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/28229-baldurs-gate-ii-five-year-anniversary.html

James: The Infinity Engine was a great engine for the Baldur's Gate Series, and we look back on it fondly. It managed to more or less bypass the issue of 3D graphics altogether (other than limited exceptions like 3D spell effects, for example) in favor of beautiful hand-painted backgrounds. When the first Infinity Engine game came out in 1998, the 3D engines available were still in their early stages. We had engines that were enormous system hogs for the time (that hasn't really changed remind me to go and buy some RAM later) but still had a lot of limits in retrospect. This was a necessary step on the road to the high 3D standards and expectations that we enjoy today, and it resulted in some brilliant and cutting edge games such as Quake, Half-Life, and Unreal, but the competition was fierce, the lifecycles were short, and anyone who didn't struggle constantly found themselves quickly left behind. We produced MDK2 during that era, and it was an enormous amount of work. The Infinity Engine neatly bypassed this struggle and significantly increased the lifetime of the engine by tying the primary type of art in the game (the adventure areas) into 2D paintings rather than 3D models. A painting looks good or bad depending on its quality and age has nothing to do with it. Lastly, our system requirements were relatively low, and we remained available to people who couldn't afford a cutting-edge machine.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I agree with most of this. I just played more of the story (up to after Hosongo and the convo you have with the Gods). So far it's very well written imo and really engaging and interesting. I know some people hate the Gods aspect of the story but i think it's more subjective than anything. Personally i like them quite a bit and the dynamics and metaphysics of the world of Eora are very unique and interesting to me. I'll refrain from commenting until i've played more though, but i'll say this, i find the quest after Eothas and figuring him out much more interesting than the Leaden Key story. It also helps that this time around you have a very clear motivation as to why you are doing the things you do. In PoE 1, i remember never having a good answer when people asked me what i was going to do when i reached the big bad. I didn't know, because i didn't care enough to invest. I didn't understand my role in all of it.

As for companions, i only have issues with Eder and Aloth (the two that are from the first game's main campaign). I never liked them and probably never will. I find them to be single-issue companions and that is never interesting to me. (Eder = saints-war, Aloth = insecure elf). They just don't have enough dynamism as the other companions.

As for factions not being tied to the main story, my having (or not having) and issue with it will depend on the outcome of the story and ending slides. I still have to wait and see. If all my actions end up being nullified or not even mentioned then i would mind that quite a bit because it will feel like wasted effort.

As for combat and the RPG elements in general, all i can say is that i love how many unique build variations it allows, while having each one of those builds have totally different playstyles. I'm playing as rogue for MC this time around and it is immensely different than the priest class i tried before. Having RPG stats matter in dialogues is always a great thing (and there's tons of that here), and the quests allow for many different approaches, the combat itself looks and sounds great and is a real joy to play. I don't understand the criticisms for it tbh. Again, i know most people here belong to the TB camp (and i like TB quite a bit as well), but the RTwP in PoE II is one of the most competent systems i've seen.

My biggest problem with the main quest is that it is a huge example of fake urgency, it doesn't encourage exploration and sidequests which are the best parts of the game. Compare it it to something like Arcanum, where the main quest is clear but still extremely mysterious and sends you all over the map to find clues, and encourages you to bump into the best parts of the game along the way. In PoE2 you have a motive to follow Eothas, but no real motive to explore the islands besides "that's where the fun stuff is."
I liked Eder in both games, I dunno why but having a folksy, regular blue-collar guy in a party of high fantasy adventurers is kinda endearing to me. Overall I thought the companions were fine but could've stood to be more involved with the story.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

One thing I liked more about PFK was that you had ample reason to go about doing sidequests: It's your barony/kingdom and you need to keep tabs on it.

 

[Lawntoilet]

One thing I liked more about PFK was that you had ample reason to go about doing sidequests: It's your barony/kingdom and you need to keep tabs on it.

Yes, Kingmaker did a great job of that too, plus the main quest was all times which added real urgency - the timer is generous enough that you can do all content in the game, but not at your leisure when there is an imminent threat to your barony.

 

[Mustawd]

The Infinity Engine neatly bypassed this struggle and significantly increased the lifetime of the engine by tying the primary type of art in the game (the adventure areas) into 2D paintings rather than 3D models. A painting looks good or bad depending on its quality and age has nothing to do with it. Lastly, our system requirements were relatively low, and we remained available to people who couldn't afford a cutting-edge machine.

Baldur’s Gate, similar to Diablo or Fallout, used 2D images of 3D models that were rendered in the modeling software.

The trees in the image I posted previously, for example, are quite clearly rendered images of a 3D model. They then recolored them to get variety. So you might have 2-3 different trees, but recoloring yields a larger variety. This can also be seen in the image I posted.

A map area was created using a base image and then adding texture (the grass for example is a variety of grass textures blended together), adding in trees and adding in points of interest like buildings, etc.

It is slightly different from a Fallout or a Diablo approach, since those games used a repeating tileset. Baldur’s gate levels had some repetition of assets (e.g. trees) but items were mostly hand placed and ground textures were “painted” on by hand for that specific map. But this basically just means they took a texture, made it a brush, and applied it to the image and blended it on top of other textures until it looked right. I’d hardly call this “painting”

Spoiler

Contrast this to the Diablo 2 grass tiles that all fit together like a puzzle.


https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/diablo2diablo2lordofdestruction/sheet/56285/

Edit: Fan remake of the Friendly Arm Inn area.

https://web.archive.org/web/2015072...rums.net/topic/37025-friendly-arm-inn-remake/

 

[jf8350143]

One thing I liked more about PFK was that you had ample reason to go about doing sidequests: It's your barony/kingdom and you need to keep tabs on it.

I'm on the opposite side of that. I found it extremely jarring that when bunch of trolls are tearing my kingdom apart, one of the thousands people under my rule still expects me to find her son, and I can't even send someone to do it for me.

Most of the side quests in Kingmaker didn't feel like something a Baron would do, more like something Baron would send people to deal with. Maybe they should let you play as Baron's right hand man like in the DLC, instead of the Baron, it would be more fitting.

In Deadfire you don't really have a define motivation to find Eothas other than the gods force you to do it, it's up to you to decide your character's real motivation.

You can play as someone who don't really give a fuck as long as the gods don't show up to tell you hurry the fuck up.

 

[gurugeorge]

I’d hardly call this “painting”

Sorry but I'd rather take the word I quoted, of the lead designer of BG and the co-lead designer of BGII, James Ohlen, over yours. I think he's more likely to know exactly how it was done, don't you?

I mean, to some extent it's partly semantics, since unless they're based on photographs, most textures are "painted" in a sense. But he's clearly talking about 2-d painted backgrounds (with IIRC vaguely from another interview with someone else, 3-d meshes that fit exactly with the notional contours of the 2-d objects, for pathing). Whether maybe they used a few bits and bobs as normal 3-d objects, copied and pasted, then 2-d rendered - that may be true, but it doesn't alter the fact that the main thrust of what they were doing seems to have been large areas hand-made in 2-d.

 

[Mustawd]

Sorry but I'd rather take the word I quoted, of the lead designer of BG and the co-lead designer of BGII, James Ohlen, over yours. I think he's more likely to know exactly how it was done, don't you?

Not really. The methods of how the maps are created are well known. Juat because some developer decided to call it a “painting” doesn’t really mean anything. But for the sake of argument let’s assume it is a painting because it is a 2D image. It’s not hand painted. these are 3D assets that are rendered in 2d and then touched up digitally.

I’m just kinda annoyed at this point that people keep reiterating this obviously flawed statement that BG was ever “hand-painted”.

You want to see hand-painted backgrounds? Look at Disco Elysium. Those use 3D models but most of the texturing is truly hand painted.