Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Diggfinger]

You really should play it solo PoTD unless you plan to create custom companions. The base game's companions are so awful I could not stand them and solo PoTD is really not that challenging. Most (if not all?) classes can do it. Anyhow, for a somewhat relaxing playthrough blood mage/steel garrote paladin was something I enjoyed.

The irony here is too deep.

Sawyer thinks Deadfire failed because he didn't cater to powergamers when they're the only ones who liked it well enough to stick around and help a new(ish) player out.

I should play solo PotD because the base game companions are so awful? What?

Some Characters in BG I/II also sucked and you never knew when the heck the bastards would randomly leave your party + making your *own* party was a hassle...

 

[JarlFrank]

Why do you even need other races in fantasy?

And here you can see how you completly missed my point. You don't need to put other races in fantasy, I explictly said that is the decision of every author to put fantasy races in their stories. But is up to them to make it interesting. I doubt a lot that you liked those things that you mention only because they had strange creatures, rather it was because of their good execution.

Now, I'm here arguing because these type of reactions in which people said they won't put elves or dwarves in their settings and somehow that would magically make it more interesting are completly out of place. If your setting is bad, is not because of elves or dwarves or any other fantasy theme you can think, is because author couldn't not write it well. So if you come, and do other settings but without these races, nothing will change because these things are NOT the problem, but your own ability.

And this is the problem here, thinking that you would get a better setting because if features "humans only", realism, or whatever other thing you can think of. Rather than because you wanted to tell a interesting story.

A writer can be jaded and bored of a certain trope though and just not feel the spark when he has to write "classic high fantasy with elves and dwarves".

Every writer is different, has different interests and passions, and can deliver certain storylines better than others.

If you commissioned me to write you a sword and sorcery story with a Conan or Red Sonja style character, where magic is rare and sinister and there are themes of civilization vs barbarism, no clear-cut good and evil but just men and women trying to do their thing, I guarantee you that it will be qualitatively better than if you commissioned me to write a high fantasy story with elves and dwarves and halflings and a plot about saving the world from a big bad evil, where good and evil are clearly defined and maybe even physically present in the world, just because of my personal interests. I really love the former but am bored of and can't really get into the latter anymore.

Of course a writer is going to present better work when he can work on something he's passionate about, than when he works on something just to pay the bills.

 

[Lacrymas]

Most artists before the Romantic era have produced masterpieces through paid commissions, one of the most famous examples being the frescoes at the Sistine Chapel. Passion for art is a bit of an artificial, modern (think Romantic) construct. As an artist, you should be able to create a technically competent work in whatever genre is required, they might not be masterpieces, but they should be masterful works. The difference for example is between Vivaldi and Bach. Vivaldi is a master whose music is still played today (obviously), but Bach is a genius who produced numerous masterpieces that cut through existence. Most RPGs feel written by basically apprentices who still haven't gotten the hang of the art.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why do you even need other races in fantasy?

And here you can see how you completly missed my point. You don't need to put other races in fantasy, I explictly said that is the decision of every author to put fantasy races in their stories. But is up to them to make it interesting. I doubt a lot that you liked those things that you mention only because they had strange creatures, rather it was because of their good execution.

Now, I'm here arguing because these type of reactions in which people said they won't put elves or dwarves in their settings and somehow that would magically make it more interesting are completly out of place. If your setting is bad, is not because of elves or dwarves or any other fantasy theme you can think, is because author couldn't not write it well. So if you come, and do other settings but without these races, nothing will change because these things are NOT the problem, but your own ability.

And this is the problem here, thinking that you would get a better setting because if features "humans only", realism, or whatever other thing you can think of. Rather than because you wanted to tell a interesting story.

A writer can be jaded and bored of a certain trope though and just not feel the spark when he has to write "classic high fantasy with elves and dwarves".

Every writer is different, has different interests and passions, and can deliver certain storylines better than others.

If you commissioned me to write you a sword and sorcery story with a Conan or Red Sonja style character, where magic is rare and sinister and there are themes of civilization vs barbarism, no clear-cut good and evil but just men and women trying to do their thing, I guarantee you that it will be qualitatively better than if you commissioned me to write a high fantasy story with elves and dwarves and halflings and a plot about saving the world from a big bad evil, where good and evil are clearly defined and maybe even physically present in the world, just because of my personal interests. I really love the former but am bored of and can't really get into the latter anymore.

Of course a writer is going to present better work when he can work on something he's passionate about, than when he works on something just to pay the bills.

Who then commissioned you to write Der Kleine der Grote or whatever 'twas?

 

[JarlFrank]

Who then commissioned you to write Der Kleine der Grote or whatever 'twas?

That was always a spoof on classic fantasy tropes, making fun of the stuff by putting it into ridiculous overdrive is cool.

But I can't play elves and dwarves seriously anymore.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That was always a spoof on classic fantasy tropes, making fun of the stuff by putting it into ridiculous overdrive is cool.

Ok.

 

[S.torch]

A writer can be jaded and bored of a certain trope though and just not feel the spark when he has to write "classic high fantasy with elves and dwarves".

Pillars of Eternity is not "classic high fantasy", whatever that means.
Pillars of Eternity was a story about pirates in a colonialism setting.
Pillars of Eternity was never "about saving the world from a big bad evil". In fact, the fantasy races themselves in PoE make little to not difference in the world, they don't even play a big role in literally anything.

The setting of PoE is a very unfantasied world. Which means they've already put out what they were "passionate about"; Grey morality, with pseudo-historical recemblances, not even the "gods" escape this obsession to rationalize everything leaving little or nothing to the mystery. So this is not a valid excuse. That would be true if Pillars was a true high fantasy story. Because this is just what I said, you put elves and then you already think that is high fantasy, no, it doesn't work that way. This is not a list with checkboxes.

Passion for art is a bit of an artificial, modern (think Romantic) construct.

Lol no. While I don't totally agree with JarlFrank, passion is very important.

 

[Prime Junta]

Passion is a stupid word. It's become almost devoid of meaning.

It goes without saying that to do anything at all well you have to have a certain interest and pride in it, whether that thing is art, craft, engineering, sports, or anything else. Calling that "passion" is off-putting, especially as nowadays you constantly bump into it in recruitment ads.

 

[JarlFrank]

Pillars of Eternity is not "classic high fantasy", whatever that means.
Pillars of Eternity was a story about pirates in a colonialism setting.
Pillars of Eternity was never "about saving the world from a big bad evil". In fact, the fantasy races themselves in PoE make little to not difference in the world, they don't even play a big role in literally anything.

The setting of PoE is a very unfantasied world. Which means they've already put out what they were "passionate about"; Grey morality, with pseudo-historical recemblances, not even the "gods" escape this obsession to rationalize everything leaving little or nothing to the mystery. So this is not a valid excuse. That would be true if Pillars was a true high fantasy story. Because this is just what I said, you put elves and then you already think that is high fantasy, no, it doesn't work that way. This is not a list with checkboxes.

Pillars checks off most "high fantasy" trappings. I did enjoy the setting of Deadfire but wished it would focus more on the political machinations between the different factions, rather than having you chase some god. Didn't care about the main plot at all.

But here's the thing: Josh said that the epic gods-related story was added because higher-ups said it should be in. All the high fantasy trappings were included because higher-ups said it has to be a high fantasy game a la Baldur's Gate.

So Josh just slapped it on like a coat of paint while pushing the worldbuilding into a different direction himself. The end result? A half assed thing that doesn't do either high fantasy or low fantasy right. It's just a mishmash of incongruous elements made by someone who didn't want to make this kind of game.

 

[vortex]

Where do you go forward from Deadfire? Progressing high fantasy, colonialism and politics even further would not be wise decision.
Pillars 3 should go lower than that. Making a fantastical world and interesting worldbuilding rather than it's political agenda.

 

[Atchodas]

Where do you go forward from Deadfire?

Spoiler

 

[Lacrymas]

Outside of placing metaphysical significance on the races like Tolkien did, what else can you really do with the standard races which can't be done with humans? I suspect not very many things. Their physiology and sense perception must be entirely different for them to structure their society in a completely different manner. Perhaps they are blind, but can fly. It doesn't make much evolutionary sense, but who cares? This isn't a documentary.

 

[Prime Junta]

Outside of placing metaphysical significance on the races like Tolkien did, what else can you really do with the standard races which can't be done with humans? I suspect not very many things. Their physiology and sense perception must be entirely different for them to structure their society in a completely different manner. Perhaps they are blind, but can fly. It doesn't make much evolutionary sense, but who cares? This isn't a documentary.

I'll see your sapient bats and raise you a Perdido Street Station.

 

[Lambach]

Where do you go forward from Deadfire? Progressing high fantasy, colonialism and politics even further would not be wise decision.
Pillars 3 should go lower than that. Making a fantastical world and interesting worldbuilding rather than it's political agenda.

The cycle of reincarnation is broken and everyone is fucked a generation or two down the line unless people find a way to fix it. This opens a path to either the standard "you're the Chosen One who will make it all right with the help of (maybe literal) Deus Ex Machina" route or the more interesting "everyone is aware that this batch of Kith may very well the one of the last, so how will all the nations, factions and society at large react and organize around their impending doom?"

Most everyone is sick of option #1 and I think option #2 takes tremendous writing talent and skill to not completely fuck up, the kind that seems to be completely verbotten over at nu-Obsidian, so yeah, it's probably best to just let it die.

 

[Prime Junta]

Most everyone is sick of option #1 and I think option #2 takes tremendous writing talent and skill to not completely fuck up

Hardly. We already know the answer. They’ll just deny it’s happening, or ignore it, and go on with business as usual until they die. It’s good enough for us, why would it be any different in Eora?

 

[Will Zurmacht]

Vivaldi is a master whose music is still played today (obviously), but Bach is a genius who produced numerous masterpieces that cut through existence. Most RPGs feel written by basically apprentices who still haven't gotten the hang of the art.

To continue in this direction: many of the Renaissance masters had studios and in those studios had apprentices who actually completed much of the commissioned product; the master planned, observed, gave advice, modified or enhanced aspects of his students' work. Often the brightest of those pupils would become masters in their own right. We don't just need Avellone to write another great story, we need Avellone to mint more Chris Avellones.

--

Re: where does Pillars go narratively as a franchise. Nowhere for a long time. The second title was just more of the same with a Caribbean backdrop, attempting to quickly cash in on the first game's success. The Engwithan project was daft from conception, and Thanos the most uninteresting type of Irenicus-like twisted archwizard antagonist. PoE 3 will need to be a thoroughly post-gods environment focused on other aspects of the world. An exploration themed game to one of the exotic far reaches mentioned in the lore e.g. Living Lands, possibly.

 

[Lacrymas]

The setting is fleshed out enough for other stuff to happen that isn't connected to the gods. That is actually preferable. I don't think we'll see a PoE3 for quite a while, perhaps we'll have to suffer through another RPG drought for it to become a "forgotten thing that happened" (I am loathe to use "gem" lol), have nostalgic value and consequently be resurrected (more like zombified) to fulfill that need. Unless they plan for PoE3 to be a "spiritual successor" to Outer Worlds and be that in Eora.

 

[Will Zurmacht]

Personally I like the idea of a story set in old Aedyr, the land of full human-elf integration and synthesis. But you know 'tropes' and stuff and muh Rome and muh elves. A good writer with vision can completely explode self-imposed trope shackles and create wondrous new things out of familiar materials.

Not that I think Obsidian is capable of that currently. ToW very much a case in point.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

A writer can be jaded and bored of a certain trope though and just not feel the spark when he has to write "classic high fantasy with elves and dwarves".

Pillars of Eternity is not "classic high fantasy", whatever that means.
Pillars of Eternity was a story about pirates in a colonialism setting.
Pillars of Eternity was never "about saving the world from a big bad evil". In fact, the fantasy races themselves in PoE make little to not difference in the world, they don't even play a big role in literally anything.

The setting of PoE is a very unfantasied world. Which means they've already put out what they were "passionate about"; Grey morality, with pseudo-historical recemblances, not even the "gods" escape this obsession to rationalize everything leaving little or nothing to the mystery. So this is not a valid excuse. That would be true if Pillars was a true high fantasy story. Because this is just what I said, you put elves and then you already think that is high fantasy, no, it doesn't work that way. This is not a list with checkboxes.

Passion for art is a bit of an artificial, modern (think Romantic) construct.

Lol no. While I don't totally agree with JarlFrank, passion is very important.

Pillaz is as colorful and nice outside and as cold and desperate inside as average post-modern piece of nowadays in any media.

ITS SIMPLE METAPHOR. THE GODS THAT ARE ACTUALLY HUMAN ARE
RPGS OF 90S AND EARLY 00S. THE WHOLE FUCKING CONFLICT OF PILLAZ IS JOSH'S QUEST FOR THE QUESTION WHAT MADE GREAT RPGS GREAT.

He failed, obviously.

 

[Daidre]

The end result? A half assed thing that doesn't do either high fantasy or low fantasy right. It's just a mishmash of incongruous elements made by someone who didn't want to make this kind of game.

Yeah, effort to differentiate from Tolkien's tropes was very noticeable with the whole "our elves are savages" (Glanfathan) and "our dwarfs are nomads" thing in first game. But then White March went out based around most classical dwarf story possible aka "they dug too deep" and writers were jumping through the hoops to explain why their nomad dwarfs suddenly decided to build Moria.

It is quite ironic that this piece of content (WM 1) is still my favorite part in Pillars franchise.

 

[Quillon]

It's certainly different but PoE's elves are also aristocrats across the sea, its more cultures than races in pillows since its a very inclusive setting you can find most races anywhere living in harmony or otherwise

 

[Daidre]

its more cultures than races in pillows since its a very inclusive setting you can find most races anywhere living in harmony or otherwise

Everyone hate Orlans, I'd give them that.

 

[vortex]

Oh, yeah.
Race stereotypes should be revamped in Pillars 3.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

its more cultures than races in pillows since its a very inclusive setting you can find most races anywhere living in harmony or otherwise

Everyone hate Orlans, I'd give them that.

Hey, I played Orlan Muslim girl in both parts, transferred from my Shadowrun Returns gaems.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's certainly different but PoE's elves are also aristocrats across the sea, its more cultures than races in pillows since its a very inclusive setting you can find most races anywhere living in harmony or otherwise

See, this is the thing.

Why even turn them into fantasy races when you're not going to make them like the original ones? So the elves here are savages and the dwarves are nomads. Why are they elves and dwarves then? Why not just... different human cultures? The real world has plenty of different cultures, and there's only humans on this planet! Among humans on Earth there is more cultural variety than there is among entire fucking species in most fantasy worlds.

Fantasy races often lead to monocultures practiced by everyone who's part of that race. While on Earth you can find huge cultural differences even if you just travel a handful of kilometers, all communities of a fantasy race tend to behave the same.
Travel through Europe and you'll encounter a dozen different languages, cultures with different values and practices, etc.
Travel down to Africa and you will find hundreds of small negro tribes who look exactly the same to an outsider but will still genocide each other for various reasons and have different languages etc.
Travel to Asia and you'll encounter various different languages, writing systems, religious beliefs, etc.
Etc etc.

But in a fantasy world? All dwarves like mining and smithing. There is one dwarven language spoken by all dwarves in every dwarven kingdom. All elves like trees and magic. There is one elven language spoken by all elves in every elven kingdom. Etc.

It would make fantasy cultures a lot more believable if they're just different human cultures. These people like mining and smithing because they live in a mountainous region and their economy relied on trading ores and manufactured metal products for centuries, not because they're short and have long beards lol.

Most of the time, fantasy races like elves and dwarves are utterly mundane: they're basically short and bearded/tall and pointy-eared humans who have specific cultural elements that could as well appear in a human culture. Them being short and bearded/tall and pointy-eared adds nothing whatsoever. Why not create distinct human cultures instead of making them elves and dwarves, especially if your elves and dwarves deviate from the traditional model of these races in order to "mix it up". If your elves and dwarves aren't like other elves and dwarves... why even have them?