Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Goldschmidt]

Don't you change your party around regularly?

I don't use companions, so there's no reason.

It's a game designed around party-play, so it is a bit moot to complain about it being boring if you restrict yourself to solo-play.

 

[gurugeorge]

Don't you change your party around regularly?

I don't use companions, so there's no reason.

Ah well there you go, no wonder you get bored

 

[Saduj]

My actual point still stands that it all feels very unnatural. My secondary observation was that if the fight was done in real time, it would be over in 1-2 minutes. No sane pirates will backstab eachother in a turn-based fashion.

I just don't like turn-based and since divinity original sin we now got ourselves stuck in a situation that every upcoming rpg is turn-based. You would think the codex would rejoice at such a fact but they still shit on every rpg that comes out. You can't please the codex but it is because of the codex rpg-fans won't ever have real-time rp-games anymore. The codex has won by shitting all over RTWP for years and you would think they'd be happy but they don't. They are just bitter oldfags.

I don't think "natural" or "realistic" (another word RTWP advocates commonly use when arguing against turn based) really means anything in this context other than "I like this better". Nothing about playing isometric CRPGs is meant to in any way simulate a real life experience. You want real life? The first time your character takes any kind of a decent whack from a sword, he's a cripple and it is game over. Fun!

Also you are way overestimating the influence of a relatively tiny forum that is mostly despised by those who have heard of it. The companies that make these games could give a shit about opinions, especially the ones here. What they care about is revenue. The success of the first Divinity Original Sin game made people realize that there is a market for turn based RPGs. IMO, that market has always been there and it simply wasn't being served for a while because at some point developers wrongly assumed that most people would prefer RTWP or ARPGs.

I really wouldn't worry about it too much. At some point some RTWP RPG will be a hit and then there will be a flood of RTWP games - regardless of whether the combat really had anything to do with the game being a hit. That is the cycle of soulless corporate decision making.

 

[Tigranes]

Would Goldschmidt prefer to actually grab some medieval swords, walk out boldly into a grassy plain, knick himself, and die extremely painfully of tetanus

Also "Codex forced the industry to kill RTWP!" sounds like a wonderful alternative universe, can we hop onto it straight away and immediately commission 8 new Thief games

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, the Codex killed RTwP. It's not like it wasn't dead for 15 years before PoE came out. If there's indeed just a single thing which destroyed any hopes of a RTwP revival, it's PoE1.

 

[Butter]

Don't you change your party around regularly?

I don't use companions, so there's no reason.

It's a game designed around party-play, so it is a bit moot to complain about it being boring if you restrict yourself to solo-play.

I use hired adventurers. The companions are all obnoxious, and the only reason to swap people in and out is so you can do all of the companion quests.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Don't you change your party around regularly?

I don't use companions, so there's no reason.

It's a game designed around party-play, so it is a bit moot to complain about it being boring if you restrict yourself to solo-play.

I use hired adventurers. The companions are all obnoxious, and the only reason to swap people in and out is so you can do all of the companion quests.

Yeah I played on release and couldn't stomach the blandness and faggotry of the companions. They even ruined Eder.

After all the DLC came out I ran with a full party of Bleak Walkers/X. Was way better.

 

[Butter]

Playing through both games concurrently and this is how they compare. tl;dr, the original PoE is the better game.


Deadfire has considerably better quest design than PoE. There are more cool setpiece quests like Arkemyr's Manor or Fort Deadlight, and these typically offer alternative solutions. There are a lot of quests that feed into other quests, particularly in Neketaka. Companion quests, however, are remarkably bad. I suspect Sawyer decided it would be too expensive to implement quests for companions the player might not even use, when they could instead focus resources on the aforementioned setpieces.

Deadfire's stealth is considerably better, for a few reasons: enemies patrol their areas instead of being stationary, encounter density is reduced, and the game better communicates NPC vision. It's actually feasible to stealth through places like Arkemyr's Manor, however there are many places where you're forced to fight, e.g. Hasongo.

Most of the changes to combat mechanics in Deadfire were bad. I already mentioned my distaste for everything being per-encounter a few posts ago, but it gets way stupider than that. The overhaul to buffs and afflictions is over-designed, and makes different abilities feel less unique. It also contributes to the graze problem of everything feeling mushy without hard counters. Penetration is an awful mechanic that dominates gameplay and never feels good to play around. You're heavily penalized for being short even 1 point, but you have to DOUBLE the enemy's AR in order to see any kind of damage bonus.

The addition of multi-classing and sub-classes for all is obviously a huge point in Deadfire's favour. It's also rather nice that you can preview the ability tree outside the level-up process, which for some reason Obsidian never considered doing in the first game.

Deadfire also easily trounces PoE (at least pre-WM) on itemization.

Deadfire has a lot more bells and whistles to make it look like a AAA game, including dynamic lighting, more cloth physics, parallax layering, and idle animations. Honestly though, I think the first game actually looks better. I remember Sawyer talking up the skeuomorphic UI design for the first game, and it was a really nice touch that made the game feel cozy to play. Then they promptly dropped that idea for the sequel and went with a boring modern look, probably thinking it would be more console-friendly. Also, there's only one loading screen in Deadfire, and it's worse than every single region-specific loading screen from PoE.

Deadfire's "improved" presentation also comes with a big performance hit. Booting up the game on an SSD takes a solid 20 seconds to reach the main menu, and in-game loading screens are just as regular and slow as in the first game.

Deadfire's companions were a huge downgrade from PoE. I wouldn't say PoE had great companions by a long shot, but I like a few of them (incidentally none of the good ones were included in Deadfire). There isn't one Deadfire companion that I'd take over a hired adventurer. Part of this is with the improved character-building options, it's obviously more fun to create a full party. But they're also really annoying, even before the pointless romance. And as previously said, the companion quests are half-assed and uninteresting.

This might be personal preference, but I don't like Deadfire's open world approach. Most areas are completely impossible for the first 6-7 levels, which forces you to squat in Neketaka and do side quests for hours. I've read Sawyer bemoaning how the similar frontloading of side quests in Athkatla hurts BG2's pacing, so I have no idea why he did the exact same thing here.

Story is tricky to evaluate because neither game did it particularly well. It's easier to avoid Deadfire's bad story because 80-90% of the game is side quests, but in some ways that almost offends me more. Deadfire provides a clearer motivation for the player's actions, but then does the Bethesda routine of giving you every excuse in the book to not pursue what seems like an urgent mission. I think I have to give PoE the edge, as Thaos's scheme to discredit animancy is somewhat interesting once you know what he's doing.

PoE's narrator is vastly superior to Deadfire's. He's no David Ogden Stiers, but his voice carries some authority and seriousness. I have no idea why they didn't bring him back for the sequel, but going with a woman who sounds like she's 16 was not a good choice.

PoE also has better music than Deadfire. Apparently this is because Justin Bell was inspired by the IE games when composing PoE, and he was inspired by Deadfire when composing Deadfire. The sea shanties make me want to stop feeding my crew.

 

[copebot]

I think the POE1 affliction system was interesting and voluminous. It was also possible to create amazing synergies that would do things like dump any enemy's defense stats to nothing. It was complex but not convoluted. Everything stacked, rather than having confusing stacking rules to prevent creativity.

They responded in the sequel by making an incredibly convoluted system in which practically nothing stacks and most spells/abilities do not stack on significant maluses or bonuses. The first game was all about buffs and debuffs, but the second one had everything that stacked well nerfed, including the things that were OP at the launch and fixed retroactively.

The first game, you felt like you got some return for game knowledge and understanding the spells and abilities of all the classes. With POE2 even if you have a comprehensive spreadsheet of what all the inspirations and, uh, de-inspirations do, it's really easy to forget because a lot of them are just marginal, except for the one that is insanely overpowered because it gives class resources back.

 

[Haplo]

Penetration is an awful mechanic that dominates gameplay and never feels good to play around. You're heavily penalized for being short even 1 point, but you have to DOUBLE the enemy's AR in order to see any kind of damage bonus.

Not saying that PEN is a good mechanic, but you're a little too dramatic for my taste. If you crit, you get +50% PEN, which often makes Overpenetrating for +30% damage trivial (on top of +50% from crit).
Some builds crit A LOT.

 

[Haplo]

I think the POE1 affliction system was interesting and voluminous. It was also possible to create amazing synergies that would do things like dump any enemy's defense stats to nothing. It was complex but not convoluted. Everything stacked, rather than having confusing stacking rules to prevent creativity.

They responded in the sequel by making an incredibly convoluted system in which practically nothing stacks and most spells/abilities do not stack on significant maluses or bonuses. The first game was all about buffs and debuffs, but the second one had everything that stacked well nerfed, including the things that were OP at the launch and fixed retroactively.

The first game, you felt like you got some return for game knowledge and understanding the spells and abilities of all the classes. With POE2 even if you have a comprehensive spreadsheet of what all the inspirations and, uh, de-inspirations do, it's really easy to forget because a lot of them are just marginal, except for the one that is insanely overpowered because it gives class resources back.

Yes, the debuffs received a nerf (that they frankly needed) and some order was implemented into the system. Still, a lot of things still stacks. And weapon defense debuff modals are quite OP (-25 Fort/Will/Reflex). Its quite easy to get enemy defenses down by 35-55 points. What more do you need?

 

[Grunker]

Penetration is an awful mechanic that dominates gameplay and never feels good to play around. You're heavily penalized for being short even 1 point, but you have to DOUBLE the enemy's AR in order to see any kind of damage bonus.

Not saying that PEN is a good mechanic, but you're a little too dramatic for my taste. If you crit, you get +50% PEN, which often makes Overpenetrating for +30% damage trivial (on top of +50% from crit).
Some builds crit A LOT.

I dunno. I like the game but PEN is at the core of a lot of the problems I have with the systems. Whenever I'm in a situation where I go "this is pretty poor", it's usually a PEN-related issue. Even way back in my first playthrough with the Harbinger final boss. Because Harbinger enemies have fairly low pen, if you don't have the required PEN yourself, that fight can go on for more than 2-3 hours without a victor. No system should output such scenarios.

 

[gurugeorge]

Good analysis and review, agree with a fair bit of it, but this:-

Honestly though, I think the first game actually looks better.

Is just ludicrous to me. Any battle with more than a few spells just turned into an unreadable soup of white noise in PoE. Absolutely horrible. POE2 by contrast is clear and readable at all times, a great step forward.

I prefer Deadfire and I like the all-per-encounter, the adjustments to afflictions, etc., I even like the "slogginess" of the Pen system, it feels more like a battle to me. But PoE's gameplay definitely has its charms too.

 

[Grunker]

There isn't one Deadfire companion that I'd take over a hired adventurer.

Mostly agree with your points, but you're doing Maia Rua a disservice here. Granted - she does seem even better than she already is simply by virtue of being the only adult of the bunch

 

[Desiderius]

Penetration is an awful mechanic that dominates gameplay and never feels good to play around. You're heavily penalized for being short even 1 point, but you have to DOUBLE the enemy's AR in order to see any kind of damage bonus.

Not saying that PEN is a good mechanic, but you're a little too dramatic for my taste. If you crit, you get +50% PEN, which often makes Overpenetrating for +30% damage trivial (on top of +50% from crit).
Some builds crit A LOT.

Too one dimensional. Shouldn't have to crit to see rewards from marginal improvement. Puts too much emphasis on one stat - Accuracy. Penetration then just acts as increasing returns on Accuracy rather than a truly separate mechanic.

 

[Desiderius]

Good analysis and review, agree with a fair bit of it, but this:-

Honestly though, I think the first game actually looks better.

Is just ludicrous to me. Any battle with more than a few spells just turned into an unreadable soup of white noise in PoE. Absolutely horrible. POE2 by contrast is clear and readable at all times, a great step forward.

I prefer Deadfire and I like the all-per-encounter, the adjustments to afflictions, etc., I even like the "slogginess" of the Pen system, it feels more like a battle to me. But PoE's gameplay definitely has its charms too.

There are all kinds of ways to slog things up without the Bergeronification of that giant hole in the middle of the PEN system.

 

[Butter]

Good analysis and review, agree with a fair bit of it, but this:-

Honestly though, I think the first game actually looks better.

Is just ludicrous to me. Any battle with more than a few spells just turned into an unreadable soup of white noise in PoE. Absolutely horrible. POE2 by contrast is clear and readable at all times, a great step forward.

That's fair. I was thinking about environment art and UI when I said the first game looks better, but the combat absolutely turns to soup.

 

[gurugeorge]

Good analysis and review, agree with a fair bit of it, but this:-

Honestly though, I think the first game actually looks better.

Is just ludicrous to me. Any battle with more than a few spells just turned into an unreadable soup of white noise in PoE. Absolutely horrible. POE2 by contrast is clear and readable at all times, a great step forward.

That's fair. I was thinking about environment art and UI when I said the first game looks better, but the combat absolutely turns to soup.

And I will concede that I agree with that to an extent. There's more "countryside" in PoE, whereas in POE2 everything seems to be buildings, with the "countryside" represented mostly on the large map, and a lot of it dry and desert-ey.

Forests and fields are also just more pleasant to be in for many of us, I think - one can almost smell the woods, the grass, the smoke from the fire, etc.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

(incidentally none of the good ones were included in Deadfire).

opinion discarded, eder is the best companion

 

[oldmanpaco]

(incidentally none of the good ones were included in Deadfire).

opinion discarded, eder is the best companion

Yes but they ruined him in Deadfire.

 

[Desiderius]

They ruined his quest. I liked the Swashbuckler build.

 

[oldmanpaco]

They ruined his quest. I liked the Swashbuckler build.

Yeah not talking about mechanics. But even regarding mechanics Eder was the solid core of all my POE1 parties. He stood in the middle took the shots and held the line. As a swashbuckler he is more fringe. Just another exotic class that can be switched out as needed. In POE1 he was a core member and never left the party.

It's been years since I played with regular companions so perhaps my memory is foggy but he certainly didn't feel as important in the 2nd game as the first.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

There isn't one Deadfire companion that I'd take over a hired adventurer.

Mostly agree with your points, but you're doing Maia Rua a disservice here. Granted - she does seem even better than she already is simply by virtue of being the only adult of the bunch

Quite liked the companion added in the Beast of Winter DLC too. A shame that he doesn't have as many interactions in the base game as the original companions do.

 

[Desiderius]

They ruined his quest. I liked the Swashbuckler build.

Yeah not talking about mechanics. But even regarding mechanics Eder was the solid core of all my POE1 parties. He stood in the middle took the shots and held the line. As a swashbuckler he is more fringe. Just another exotic class that can be switched out as needed. In POE1 he was a core member and never left the party.

It's been years since I played with regular companions so perhaps my memory is foggy but he certainly didn't feel as important in the 2nd game as the first.

He played similarly he just picked up a teleport (Escape) which made the whole thing flow more smoothly.

 

[Haplo]

They ruined his quest. I liked the Swashbuckler build.

Yeah not talking about mechanics. But even regarding mechanics Eder was the solid core of all my POE1 parties. He stood in the middle took the shots and held the line. As a swashbuckler he is more fringe. Just another exotic class that can be switched out as needed. In POE1 he was a core member and never left the party.

It's been years since I played with regular companions so perhaps my memory is foggy but he certainly didn't feel as important in the 2nd game as the first.

He played similarly he just picked up a teleport (Escape) which made the whole thing flow more smoothly.

Also, he can be built into a riposte monster now, which is neat.

Of course, it is also easier to replace him in Deadfire, should you be so inclined.