Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Bubbles]

It's also closely associated with Skyrim nowadays.

 

[Black]

Character models need to stand out from the background way more.

 

[Dorateen]

Thane/Thain is a pretty well-known title among fantasy nerds since it's used by hobbits in Middle Earth.

I can't believe I need to interupt this thread to clarify that Thane is a Scottish feudal lord, and in fantasy literature has been most associated with Dwarves.

 

[Bubbles]

Character building tips from the stat master:

if you really want to make use of consumables, including potions and traps, I think spreading the skill points around a little is not a bad idea. Ultimately, if you have a party of any significant size, you're eventually going to get skill overlap, so having at least one generalist won't hurt and will probably help. We used a triangular progression specifically to help keep generalists from falling too far behind the specialists. We also try to have our checks often target non-specialist levels so generalists will get a broader array of hits in conversations (though they will miss out on the highest checks, of course).

 

[Abu Antar]

Played a bit more. A lot of people might be unhappy with stats and some other things, but I am actually having fun and have enjoyed all the classes I have tried so far: Monk/Wizard/Chanter/Cipher. The Fighter isn't the meat shield I hoped he would be, but at the same time, healing him hasn't been an issue so far.

On dump stats. There are certainly some dump stats. I see no reason to give my fighter high intelligence. Give him lots of might and constitution. Resolve isn't that important either, other than will saves.

One the game is working, I am having fun. I can't deny that. Still, they could probably make some stats more useful.

 

[Blaine]

Referring back to my old suggestions regarding how to make this one-size-fits-all attribute system more interesting:

Well, here are my suggestions:

RAARGH!—damage stat
Ooga Booga—dexterity/speed stat
Bonk Tok—constitution stat
RRRRUH?—perception/awareness stat
Grok Thunk—intelligence stat
Unga Bunga—charisma stat

 

[Snerf]

Referring back to my old suggestions regarding how to make this one-size-fits-all attribute system more interesting:

Well, here are my suggestions:

RAARGH!—damage stat
Ooga Booga—dexterity/speed stat
Bonk Tok—constitution stat
RRRRUH?—perception/awareness stat
Grok Thunk—intelligence stat
Unga Bunga—charisma stat

Everyone knows you gotta max out your Bonk Tok. Dump Unga Bunga.

 

[Shadenuat]

Slightly OT but you guys keep talking about D:OS. Could not get into that. Didnt like (ok, hated) the art style. Didnt like the dialogue, didnt like the story, didnt like the characters. Hated the UI. Combat was good but nog enough to put up with the rest of the game.

Gameplay-wise Original Sin is a technical marvel and I'm afraid even if PoE would get all patched up it never would be as amazing as Original Sin combat.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Played a bit more. A lot of people might be unhappy with stats and some other things, but I am actually having fun and have enjoyed all the classes I have tried so far: Monk/Wizard/Chanter/Cipher. The Fighter isn't the meat shield I hoped he would be, but at the same time, healing him hasn't been an issue so far.

On dump stats. There are certainly some dump stats. I see no reason to give my fighter high intelligence. Give him lots of might and constitution. Resolve isn't that important either, other than will saves.

One the game is working, I am having fun. I can't deny that. Still, they could probably make some stats more useful.

This pretty much tracks with my experiences so far with the PoE beta.

 

[Osvir]

Want to try out a Wizard build that isn't the BB Wizard? Here's a temporary work around on that. Also, try "Verifying Steam Cache" in the Steam Client for Eternity. Might do something.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

"Might" really means "Soul Power" in this setting, they're just too scared to actually write that on the attribute screen.

Soul power also affects the caliber of your ammunition?

It's like Dragonball, basically.

Sold as a spiritual successor to BG, is actually a Dragonball game in disguise. Well played, Sawyer. Well played...

 

[nikolokolus]

Validating the Steam cache does nothing. It was the first thing I tried the first time the game bugged out.

 

[agris]

Here's my feedback so far, some of it has been stated already but I'll reinforce it / elaborate:

• [general] From the opening game menu, changing game difficulty from easy, followed by disabling "detailed quest updates" resets game difficulty to easy
• [UI-start menu] Selection from the vertically oriented options to the left of the screen, 'game' / graphics / sound, results in the vertical option text being blanked out
• [Char Creation] For ability scores, indicate poor / low / average / above avg/ high / exceptional range (this leads into my opinion of the ability system, expanded more after this list)
• [Char Creation] Improve readability of class description text by includes vertical break between abilities, i.e. monk class text and Wounds, Swift Strike, Transcendent Suffering, etc (Sensuki has done a lot to improve this, see post in OE forums)
• [game UI] Pg. Up/Down doesn't change combat log size. This is an IE staple.
  
• [game UI] selection options from in-game (menu, autopause, etc) when clicked don't render the golden highlight around button fully, top part of border is omitted
• [game UI] item descriptions, e.g. fine morning star, should more clearly indicate whether 1 or 2 handed (next to damage? i.e. 24-38 Crush Damage (2h), or next to item type in description, "Morning Star (2h)"
• [Gameplay] In Dyrford inn, once selecting a 1000cp adventurer to create, cannot cancel the action
• [Gameplay] Appears as if actors can occupy the same place? Adds to confusion during battle, actors should occlude one-another including a buffer zone to improve viewability during combat.
  
• [world render] poor contrast between actors and environment, i.e. Medreth, on 'natural' (grass, wilderness) backgrounds (more below)
  
• [Shopkeeper interface] scrolling items in shopkeeper inventory using the mousewheel also scrolls zoom level
• [Shopkeeper interface] Trollhide Belt and Girdle of Mortal Protection both incorrectly show value of 75cp when first encountered in Trygil's store. Adding them to the 'trade area' and removing them causes the prices to be updated in Trygil's list correctly.
• [missing string] Monk Wound's trait icon gives pop-up text of "WoundsTrait" after class selection during character creation
  
• [missing string] Thrust of Tattered Veils description missing string under Speed:

Abilities

Spoiler

It's been stated already, but ability scores, as they stand now, feel useless. The tiny gradations (2-3%) per point remove the perception of impact on your character. It was debated previously ITT, but abilities in the IE games were important. They dictated how many extra spells you got per level, they had a permanent impact on your chance to hit (say 5% per tier, assuming AC ranged from 10 to -10) and had a real impact on your survivability (+HP/level) and damage.

I don't have the solution for improving ability scores, but I think that:

1. changing ability scores should have more impact (i.e. +/- 5% per tick)
2. we should have less TOTAL ability points to start with
3. more dialogue / CYOA sections be gated by ability score checks,
4. the current / soon-to-be-implemented traits be gated by ability scores, similar to Fallout 1/2 perks relying on skills and SPECIAL ability score values

This makes ability scores feel like they're having more of an impact, ala the IE games, reduces the impact of the increased ranges, improves the dynamic nature of the game as it responds to your character abilities (characteristic of the IE games) and introduces a more tactical consideration for our ability score loadout (again, consistent with the IE games). For better or worse, making a character in the IE games was itself a game within the game. For me, it was better. The optimization problem presented by the AD&D 2e rules system was a fun to puzzle to work around. I'm not advocating that (I know not everyone feels the same), but I do think the multiple layers of tiered attributes, race and class based minimums and maximums, and sometimes incongruous advancements (flat and sudden jumps in power, like 18 -> 19 STR) added to the puzzle-like quality of character creation.

I'm not advocating this in PoE, but it's important to remember these qualities of character creation since they were core to character differentiation in the IE games. I think my above points 1, 3 and 4 would lead to a more IE-like ability point system. Point 2 is to address some of the balance issues presented by a more modified system. Also, below a certain ability point threshold, the player should incur a malus to a given derived attribute. I understand that this is functionally equivalent to a system balanced around any arbitrary derived attribute (defense, accuracy, etc) score, but the concept of "nothing but bonuses" is not consistent with the IE experience. If you played a wizard, you knew that the bare-minimum you could take in INT (enough to memorize X level spells). If you played a fighter, you knew that a 10 STR was going to gimp you, or a CON imparting a negative HP/level modifier was a stupid choice. Such bonus/malus mechanisms can be continued on in spirit in PoE, without creating character builds that fail.

Due to Josh's selection of what derived attributes are modified by what abilities, a muscle wizard is still viable, even if he's stupid. Using my points 1-4, he's just more muscle-y and locking himself into/out-of some dialogue-CYOA/trait selections. I'm advocating for slightly more polarization of gamplay from attributes, not a radical departure.

Combat

Spoiler

I've got less to say on this. In general, characters do not stand out enough against 'natural' backdrops such as grass, fields, and dirt. Party members standing in tall grass are especially prone to this low-contrast situation. A one-pixel black border would probably help (especially since if the background is black, the detail / non-black elements of the models should provide the contrast). Maybe a sharpness filter or something applied to character rendering would help, but all I know is that PCs / party-members do NOT have enough contrast when placed in a natural setting.

During combat, actors need a space around them that other actors cannot occupy. Right now, there is too much overlap between the models, and adds to the bumblefuck mess that is trying to discern wtf is happening during combat. The IE games were good about having an occlusion bubble around actors, so that two actors next to one another where never so close as to lose the ability to discern the actions that they were taking. This leads to my other point: visual indication/feedback of status effects needs to be improved. How can I tell who is slowed/hasted/webbed/held/burning etc?

Once actors stand out against the background (and they do for some of the maps), and they stop crowding one another into a jumble of arms/legs/tentacles, it will be a lot easier to figure out what's happening during combat. Right now, it's a hot mess.

 

[tuluse]

I have a question to whom it may concern. While undoubtedly the characters stand out less than they did in IE games (256 color pallet on top of full color will do this), is the problem that they don't stand or that the selection circles aren't very good? They seem to disappear behind stuff a lot.

 

[roshan]

Cross-posting from Obsidian forums: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67...-more-attribute-builds-in-character-creation/

That won't work unless the stats actually PENALIZE a player. In the 3rd edition games, 10 was the threshold because below that, stats would give you penalties, often very crippling ones. If you dumped WIS to 3, -4 to your will saves is a pretty serious penalty. Same goes with dumping INT, losing your skillpoints and having to choose between Concentration and Spellcraft. The only stat that was dumpable without consequence was probably Charisma.

In this game however, it seems to be dumbed down to the point that stats only give bonuses, not penalties. This means you can actually dump any stat with very little consequence. Now all stats are dump stats. BALANCE!!!

 

[agris]

I have a question to whom it may concern. While undoubtedly the characters stand out less than they did in IE games (256 color pallet on top of full color will do this), is the problem that they don't stand or that the selection circles aren't very good? They seem to disappear behind stuff a lot.

I think that actors need a 1 pixel black border around them, and that would solve it. I don't think it's the selection circles, but the melding of actors and background.

 

[tuluse]

That won't work unless the stats actually PENALIZE a player. In the 3rd edition games, 10 was the threshold because below that, stats would give you penalties, often very crippling ones. If you dumped WIS to 3, -4 to your will saves is a pretty serious penalty. Same goes with dumping INT, losing your skillpoints and having to choose between Concentration and Spellcraft. The only stat that was dumpable without consequence was probably Charisma.

In this game however, it seems to be dumbed down to the point that stats only give bonuses, not penalties. This means you can actually dump any stat with very little consequence. Now all stats are dump stats. BALANCE!!!

What's the difference between a stat penalty and all DCs being raised by 4?

 

[agris]

What's the difference between a stat penalty and all DCs being raised by 4?

Absolutely nothing. I'm going to quote myself, though.

below a certain ability point threshold, the player should incur a malus to a given derived attribute. I understand that this is functionally equivalent to a system balanced around any arbitrary derived attribute (defense, accuracy, etc) score, but the concept of "nothing but bonuses" is not consistent with the IE experience. If you played a wizard, you knew that the bare-minimum you could take in INT (enough to memorize X level spells). If you played a fighter, you knew that a 10 STR was going to gimp you, or a CON imparting a negative HP/level modifier was a stupid choice. Such bonus/malus mechanisms can be continued on in spirit in PoE, without creating character builds that fail.

It's about magnitude, impact and appearance. Nothing but bonuses is not the IE way.

 

[roshan]

I'm sorry but what's the difference. If you take one system where you go from -5 penalty to +5 bonus and other where you go from +0 to +10 bonuses, the difference in strength of two characters on the far ends of the scale should be the same.

What's the difference between a stat penalty and all DCs being raised by 4?

In the IE games if you had a 1D4 dagger, with 3 STR you would be doing 0 damage all the time. That's a penalty. On the other hand if it was a bonus of 1-10, you would be doing 2-5 damage with minimum strength. That's called still getting a fucking bonus.

 

[I_am_Ian]

Basically 0 in a stat is the baseline. Then it would be like every character starting with all 10's in D&D and then adding more points on top of that without being able to lower the scores below 10.

It's impossible to make a character not good at something. You're either good, great or AWESOME.

 

[Gozma]

Are the stats different enough that you could randomly allocate the points for a couple characters and the game would play differently with the same classes? Sawyer made it sound like his goal was to let people make viable strength wizards etc. and avoid dump stats, but is it a source of game variety too or is it too marginal?

 

[tuluse]

Are the stats different enough that you could randomly allocate the points for a couple characters and the game would play differently with the same classes? Sawyer made it sound like his goal was to let people make viable strength wizards etc. and avoid dump stats, but is it a source of game variety too or is it too marginal?

They feel pretty samey. The attributes do little to differentiate characters.

 

[Rivmusique]

Although I've got to say, some tips:
- Start a New Game, you only have ONE life. If you Load Game you will instantly see the game becoming more buggy almost immedietly (saving the game can cause instabilit too). So, so long as you're not loading the game, you're mostly fine, the beta is most stable until you save or load game.
- Don't talk to Medreth in the beginning, go to Nyfre first instead. Don't talk to Rumbald or any other Quest-giver in town.
- Try to survive without saving or loading for as long as you can (Defeat the Ogre, take the head, go to the Egg, return) etc. this is what I am trying to do, completing Quests backwards (because Quest-givers & Quests are buggy if doing them linearly straight up).

Good stuff. I'd also add that if you notice the enemies start putting out pathetically low damage, check the combat log. If it is showing their DT at 0, it's likely broken (I don't think any enemy has 0 DT on hard). You are probably best off quitting at this point and starting a new game (of course if you just want to do the quests or something, continue).

If you want to see encounters closer to intended, here's what I have been doing: There are 3 main directions you can go for combat in the Beta:

- West to wilderness with druids/lions/pwgra(sp?) and the spirit/spider-mindflayer dungeon
- East to the wilderness with beetles/ogre cave/wolves/wurms/dragon egg hunters/forest lurkers
- Under the town dungeon through Trygil's shop (this can also be accessed through the east wilderness)

I pretty much do one then start a new game for another, as it has probably broken by then. If I only do some of an area before it breaks, I start a new game and beeline (use stealth) for the encounters I didn't do.

Of course, tuning isn't done anyway, and there are issues with ability activation/attacks stopping/pathfinding etc. so you won't get the best combat experience regardless. But at least it stops it becoming set fast-mode > select-all > focus-fire > win.

 

[Bubbles]

I only just realized that items no longer have weight and carrying 6 heavy armors is the same as carrying six eggs. I bet Josh really regrets making that "Strength Wizard" example.

I also hate that "you're out camping in the wilderness and want to craft a minor stamina potion? sure, just grind down an amethyst, combine it with fresh river reed, then add 600 fucking gold coins" shit. This whole "balance for the balance god" thing really needs to be reigned in before it completely destroys fun and immersion.

 

[Sensuki]

I hope that Obsidian will put some effort into coding a beefy heuristic for determining when enemies should take the hit and break out of melee engagement.

Yeah ... dunno about that (for PE:1). Steve has to work on pathfinding first, will he have time to do that later?

Okay apparently it's already done.

Question: am i being a whiny fag, or is combat actually boring? (I haven't read all the replies here but it seems more like combat is considered badly implemented rather than boring, and while bad implementation can be fixed, boredom can still happen with well implemented combat...)

Nope you made pretty fair points actually. In the IE games I usually played 4 melee and 2 ranged characters. That's a dud choice in PE. It's like 1-2 melee and 4 ranged.

Looking at it closely I think it reads: On Attack: +4 Melee Accuracy, +4 Ranged Accuracy, x1.25 Damage. Just look at where the commas end. But they way they put it there is really whack.

Edit: They really need to fix it. The way they present the information here is awful.

Reported that on the first day. They're aware of it.

There is an oddity in the system that ranged characters can dump con and resolve easily so might is more beneficial for them than melee characters.

Kinda funny isn't it.

2. Per encounter abilities: if it was up to me there would only be per encounter abilities in this game. Per rest abilities generate startegical considerations. Limited per encounter abilities generate tactical considerations. In moment to moment gameplay tactical considerations are much more interesting then strategic ones in an IE like game (I can elaborate on this if anyone is interested).

I disagree with this. I dunno if it's just me atm but you almost seem to get way too many encounter powers. I haven't used nearly close to all of the encounter powers that I have on any character in an encounter yet. Per rest abilities make it fun when you're starting to run out of daily resources and have to be ... well .... more resourceful!

3. Resting + health + stamina: I like the interplay between resting and health. Basically you cannot rest after each encounter so you need to manage your long term resource: health. In combat encounters you thus need always be on your best because otherwise you will get into trouble later on in the dungeon/area. Also I like that you dont have to load your priest full of healing spells anymore to survive an encounter.

The system is a bit dodge atm because everyone is resting when their tank gets low. Their tank always gets low first, and can only survive the front line after a few encounters. The adventuring day is far too short atm and ranged combat is far too stronk.