Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Call me 'old school' or stuck in the pat, but intelligence should be the most important stat for a wizard IMO.

Why should it?

why change it? It made sense, and it has tons of lore, history, books, game testing and nostalgia behind it. I get the feeling that all those points answer my initial question though. Somebody wants to show us how 'smart' or 'different' they are or something. I don't get the need to change much of this stuff. The more I see, the more I appreciate AD&D, years of bitching and scheming and planning and still nobody has made anything near as fun. all these system redesigns are so much time, effort and money wasted when we could have been playing good games all along.


INT did not need to be changed. Itemization did not need to be changed. The 3d6 non-linear attribute system did not need to be changed. none of this shit needed to be fucked with. Its all a bunch of useless masturbation and we are all wasting so much energy and money trying to change the wrong things when instead we could have 201+ years of ever improving IE AD&D modules. Instead we have a jumbled mess of systems and ideas instead when a perfectly good system sits right in front of us, unused and easily licensed.

 

[Shevek]

Why change it, you ask? Because stats were nearly meaningless in the IE games. Everyone basically went with a standard array of stats. it was nothing more than an illusion of choice in character building and it sucked. This system lets you make assorted builds rather than rely on a single standard array. It gives you REAL character building choice. Who gives a rats ass if int isnt the sole damn source of wizardly power?

 

[covr]

I think that someone with good reputation over Obsidian forum (Sensuki?) should create one big thread with RPGCodex suggestions and bugs. Of course only with those which wasn't reported before. It will be nice to have our own megathread at Obs' place.

P.S. Gib key plz, wanna moan with you.

 

[commie]

Call me 'old school' or stuck in the pat, but intelligence should be the most important stat for a wizard IMO.

Why should it?

why change it? It made sense, and it has tons of lore, history, books, game testing and nostalgia behind it.

And this game has LORE that suggests that 'magic' is a bit different. So while I can understand that INT should perhaps modify the number and complexity of spells a mage can cast, I don't see why a low int 'Battle Mage' type of build shouldn't be possible since innate magic affinity can easily be supposed allowing the casting of spells for even a low INT character. Hell, you can still make a low INT wizard(up to a point) in AD&D complete with the crippling tradeoffs that come with it.


Truly, I know this is the Codex and all, but what a bunch of fucking entitled cry babies so many have become! Have they forgotten how it was at the start of 2012 when third person console ports like Dark Souls were being hailed as the best RPG's of the last decade, something to wish for as a PC exclusive??

Now we are getting the closest thing to a BG III we're ever likely to get(barring a REAL BG made with this toolset) and now it's Oh noes, gaem doesn't follow an old ruleset so it SUXXORS!!!

What the FUCK??

Look through these forums and see all the fucking whining about AD&D rulesets, even the 3.5 one! People praying that PoE wouldn't use it etc. Yet NOW when Obsidian does something else, they are fucking pilloried for it!

Just fuck off with your shit, and go back to Dark Souls.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Percentage thing is meh, but who gives a shit really? If you faggots are such 'experts' of the RPG genre, shouldn't be that hard to work out. Important thing is it's like I'm back in 1998 when playing, complete with the love/hate RTwP combat that even now for me degenerates into a clusterfuck. Sure, I would have loved it TB like Divinity, but fuck it...I commend them for sticking with IE style after promising IE style. When devs start to tinker and change mechanics just to suit some groups then shit gets worse.

I like AD&D as much as the next man, but if they went for something else here, then I'll take it as a challenge to learn this system. Big deal. Also +10% for giving all classes something interesting to do for a change.

I think trying to make all the classes have something 'interesting' to do is another problem here actually. This is a party based game, not a MMO, you are controlling a combined arms team of specialized warriors.

I think trying to make everybody have something interesting to do might be good design for a MOBA, but for a party based RPG it would be akin to trying to making all the units in a WWII game the same so that artillery did not have to sit out close combat. Planes, light tanks, heavy tanks, mobile recon, heavy engineers, artillery, anti-tank all have specialized specific jobs, it is not 'boring', it is interesting. boring is making wizards be able to wear Armour and use swords,; it would be the same as turning all the WW II units I named above into generic Risk pieces. Sure every Risk piece is always involved equally in every combat... its perfectly balanced...... and perfectly bland and boring as all hell.

 

[Infinitron]

Call me 'old school' or stuck in the pat, but intelligence should be the most important stat for a wizard IMO.

Why should it?

why change it? It made sense, and it has tons of lore, history, books, game testing and nostalgia behind it.

And this game has LORE that suggests that 'magic' is a bit different. So while I can understand that INT should perhaps modify the number and complexity of spells a mage can cast, I don't see why a low int 'Battle Mage' type of build shouldn't be possible since innate magic affinity can easily be supposed allowing the casting of spells for even a low INT character. Hell, you can still make a low INT wizard(up to a point) in AD&D complete with the crippling tradeoffs that come with it.

One must remember that Pillars of Eternity does not have a separate Sorcerer class, so its mage class is meant to emulate that too. Sorcerers didn't need high Int.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Why change it, you ask? Because stats were nearly meaningless in the IE games. Everyone basically went with a standard array of stats. it was nothing more than an illusion of choice in character building and it sucked. This system lets you make assorted builds rather than rely on a single standard array. It gives you REAL character building choice. Who gives a rats ass if int isnt the sole damn source of wizardly power?

There were some pretty easy fixes to these issues, many of which 3.5 addressed, some which could be tweaked instead of making a new system from the ground up. I just don't know how you can really make an entire new system and world and have it be good in just a few years. Table top games often go through years of balancing and fine tuning without even trying to make them also work in computer code concurrently.. which is why I think trying to design a new system is such an issue in a computer game, it feels like a waste of assets. Sure every once in awhile somebody might create something great, but its more likely to be unbalanced and weaker than already existing systems and lore.

 

[commie]

I think trying to make all the classes have something 'interesting' to do is another problem here actually. This is a party based game, not a MMO, you are controlling a combined arms team of specialized warriors.

Huh? If you're controlling a combined arms team of specialized warriors, then what's the problem? If each class has specialised skills, then that only makes them even more distinct and useful. Your argument makes no sense. Actually it was the lack of anything extra to say a PURE 'fighter class' in AD&D that made me always ignore them in favor of Paladins or the like. If a fighter in PoE has some unique skill then I actually would consider using one.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Call me 'old school' or stuck in the pat, but intelligence should be the most important stat for a wizard IMO.

Why should it?

why change it? It made sense, and it has tons of lore, history, books, game testing and nostalgia behind it.

And this game has LORE that suggests that 'magic' is a bit different. So while I can understand that INT should perhaps modify the number and complexity of spells a mage can cast, I don't see why a low int 'Battle Mage' type of build shouldn't be possible since innate magic affinity can easily be supposed allowing the casting of spells for even a low INT character. Hell, you can still make a low INT wizard(up to a point) in AD&D complete with the crippling tradeoffs that come with it.

One must remember that Pillars of Eternity does not have a separate Sorcerer class, so its mage class is meant to emulate that too. Sorcerers didn't need high Int.

thats fine I can get into a sorcerer/witch type of magic user, I would prefer both types exist I guess, but I actually don't care that much about that issue.... my biggest issue so far is with the % system, the linear attribute model and MMO style itemization and combat design.

 

[Shevek]

holla: I think PE's stat system is much more appealing than 3.5. Rather than trying to make stats worth it with things like stat minimums for feats, they put in actual mechanical bonuses for all classes for all stats. Its fantastic. Opinions vary, I suppose.

 

[Sensuki]

I think that someone with good reputation over Obsidian forum (Sensuki?) should create one big thread with RPGCodex suggestions and bugs.

I have been reporting issues that RPGCodex members post here if they are too lazy to post on the official forums themselves. As for suggestions, the one I agree with I am writing down on my PE.txt, but there are a lot that I don't agree with.

Eventually I'll wreak some massive Wall of Text with weeks worth of issues and suggestions, but I'm still collecting data atm.

I believe Anthony Davis is also sweeping this thread.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I think trying to make all the classes have something 'interesting' to do is another problem here actually. This is a party based game, not a MMO, you are controlling a combined arms team of specialized warriors.

Huh? If you're controlling a combined arms team of specialized warriors, then what's the problem? If each class has specialised skills, then that only makes them even more distinct and useful. Your argument makes no sense. Actually it was the lack of anything extra to say a PURE 'fighter class' in AD&D that made me always ignore them in favor of Paladins or the like. If a fighter in PoE has some unique skill then I actually would consider using one.

okay. I don't think having fighters who 'just' bash people on the head is a bad thing in a party style game, since you are controlling 5-6 party members. I think it is not necessarily good design to try and give every character something to 'do' all the time, since the focus is on having the party having something to do. Why is it a problem if you are clicking on one of your little bro's miore than other particular bro's in certain battles? Maybe it is reversed in a different type of battle with different enemies?

Wizards sitting out fights was not a problem for me in D&D. Giving warriors spell like abilities so that you click on them just as much as your wizard during a battle seems unnecessary in a party based design. It also tends to make it feel like every character is just a magic user of some different type but instead of fireball on the fighter its called 'SWORD STORM', and on the Rogue its called "HAIL OF DAGGERS" or something.

But I understand that you may not really even be getting at what i am saying since games where an entire party is the focus of the game instead of MUH PALADIN is sort of an antiquated concept.

 

[LizardWizard]

I'm not sure what Cain is working on besides the stronghold.

The durability system if Sawyer hadn't shut it down after only a few hours of extreme butthurt.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure what Cain is working on besides the stronghold.

The durability system if Sawyer hadn't shut it down after only a few hours of extreme butthurt.

Don't assume that because Tim Cain wrote a Kickstarter update about something that means he designed it. We do know Josh was always on the fence about durability, but whether the idea was pushed by Cain or somebody else is unknown.

 

[Frusciante]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

Most retarded analogy heard here (and it keeps on being repeated) is the MMO comparison with tank, healer DPS. What the hell does a top down crpg have to do with MMO's where you only control one single character?? Besides PoE has melee classes that are all about CC and DPS (monk), ranged classes that are more about versatility then dps (wizard) and a healer class (priest) that is more about support anyway. And also in a party based game, what is wrong with a tank, healer dps tactic? It's exactly the same as in the old IE games...

Guild Wars 2 did away with the ''holy trinity'' and what did it lead to: classes that played nearly identical and a huge clusterfuck with no tactics.

Second, ''respectable'' people like J_C starting to compare this to Diablo 3?? What the fuck is wrong with you man? This game plays almost exactly like the IE games plus some game killing bugs at the moment but also plus some great improvements. Only thing where it slightly resembles diablo is maybe with the percentage changes from the attribute system. Sure this is not as how I would like it but it's about the only inherent negative I can think of in this game.

Even Sensuki is now panicking lol. Why do you let yourself be influenced by these idiots man? The combat will be good, please look at the list bugs/missing features in my Beta impressions post. When these are solved/added the combat will be fine. Yes the attribute system has it's problems, but if that's the only major thing why would you let that get into the way of enjoying a very good rpg?

Plus it seems like people only like to talk about Sawyers ''failures'' and forget about the good/interesting mechanics/systems he added. Just to name a few: melee engagement system, stealth system, rest system (in combination with health/stamina one of the the best innovations in crpg history), health/stamina system, scripted interactions and per encounter abilities.

Furthermore, this guy Sawyer doesnt give me the impression at all that he is above changing things. From what I have read/heard of him he is perfectly fine with changing things when they are not received well. I feel like most people are just hating on Roguey or are completely autistic or have very limited analytical capabilities.

For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

 

[Sensuki]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

Most retarded analogy heard here (and it keeps on being repeated) is the MMO comparison with tank, healer DPS. What the hell does a top down crpg have to do with MMO's where you only control one single character??.

Raids. The classes are kinda MMO-y man. Even 4E classes are. A lot of the PE monk design is similar to the monk from another MMO (which someone pointed out in Update 52 thread ages ago).

I dunno about J_C being "respectable" , he's a known white knighter of various developers. Other than his ridiculous defense of Double Fine I don't have anything against him though.

Even Sensuki is now panicking lol. Why do you let yourself be influenced by these idiots man? The combat will be good, please look at the list bugs/missing features in my Beta impressions post. When these are solved/added the combat will be fine. Yes the attribute system has it's problems, but if that's the only major thing why would you let that get into the way of enjoying a very good rpg?

No one here is influencing my thoughts on the game. You will see I constantly disagree with people about various issues. I have my own informed opinion from playing the beta, unlike some of the people posting here.

I am up in the air about whether they will make the December deadline. My post earlier about taking a break is because I have literally been sitting in my room for the past few days reporting bugs, making notes and making videos and threads and discussing the game on the forums. I haven't really left the house except to go outside and play with my cats. I went for a 6km walk earlier this evening to get some fresh air and clear my head.

I am not 100% sure on whether combat will be good. It absolutely could be, it just depends on whether they actually listen to the right feedback. A post that Josh Sawyer made on SA earlier had me a little worried because he posted a list of things that they were considering doing ... apart from changing Stamina to Endurance, the rest were terrible ideas that are just bandaids over a bullethole, missing the real issue.

From what I gather he is still in Europe though. Taking a holiday perhaps after his press tour.

Plus it seems like people only like to talk about Sawyers ''failures'' and forget about the good/interesting mechanics/systems he added. Just to name a few: melee engagement system, stealth system, rest system (in combination with health/stamina one of the the best innovations in crpg history), health/stamina system, scripted interactions and per encounter abilities.

I think Josh's best attribute is that he understands the IE feel. But he also doesn't like some of the things that are IE that pretty much everyone else does. The Melee Engagement system so far is good in theory but in practice it's ehhh - with polish it might be alright. Stealth system is a step up from IE. Rest system is ... interesting, but not working very well so far. It's a "good"/different idea, but I think currently we're seeing many reasons why there is actually nothing wrong with just Health, and strategical resources to regain that Health.

I actually think that tighter control on strategical health resources with a standard health system would would play just as good as making a split resource system.

Scripted Interactions are great. Very good idea thanks to being a Darlands fanatic.

Per-encounter is just borrowing from 4E which isn't an achievement. Per-rest is better than per-day though.

 

[Infinitron]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

...

For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

This kind of fanboying isn't helpful. Don't go full Daedalos, man.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.
...
Only thing where it slightly resembles diablo is maybe with the percentage changes from the attribute system. Sure this is not as how I would like it but it's about the only inherent negative I can think of in this game.
...
For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

It's not only people on one end of the spectrum who could be described as "idiots" if you really have to pull out labels like that. The Daedalos "everything will be perfect after the bugfixing" attitude is just as unrealistic. The truth is somewhere in the middle, there are some valid complaints.

Furthermore, this guy Sawyer doesnt give me the impression at all that he is above changing things. From what I have read/heard of him he is perfectly fine with changing things when they are not received well.

Lol.

edit: I see the tron beat me to it with the "new Daedalos" tag.

 

[Frusciante]

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

Most retarded analogy heard here (and it keeps on being repeated) is the MMO comparison with tank, healer DPS. What the hell does a top down crpg have to do with MMO's where you only control one single character??.

Raids. The classes are kinda MMO-y man. Even 4E classes are. A lot of the PE monk design is similar to the monk from another MMO (which someone pointed out in Update 52 thread ages ago).

I dunno about J_C being "respectable" , he's a known white knighter of various developers. Other than his ridiculous defense of Double Fine I don't have anything against him though.

But are MMO classes not mostly based on general rpg archetypes? So it's normal that there is overlap.

What a bunch of idiots in this thread.

...

For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

This kind of fanboying isn't helpful. Don't go full Daedalos, man.

Perhaps you are right. But it's more a reaction to the far too negative/pessimistic and mostly uninformed view on PoE by some people. I also have a lot of things that I would like to see improved but what I mean what I said. I honestly think PoE will be a great rpg based on what I've played in the beta.

Edit: also was just a bit annoyed this morning from reading all the nonsense in this thread.

 

[Infinitron]

I am not 100% sure on whether combat will be good. It absolutely could be, it just depends on whether they actually listen to the right feedback. A post that Josh Sawyer made on SA earlier had me a little worried because he posted a list of things that they were considering doing ... apart from changing Stamina to Endurance, the rest were terrible ideas that are just bandaids over a bullethole, missing the real issue.

I interpreted that as the list of things he had put on his to-do list solely from his experience with people's reactions at Gamescom. And from before the beta started, in any case.

 

[Sensuki]

Edit: also was just a but annoyed this morning from reading all the nonsense in this thread.

Man most of the people that have said shit like that are quite literally doing a drive by HAHA TOLD U SO like Lyric Suite did. He actually was probably one of the first to do it.

This is 100% Codex. Some of those posts make me laugh actually, haha.

Edited my above post with more of a reply too btw

I interpreted that as the list of things he had put on his to-do list solely from his experience with people's reactions at Gamescom. And from before the beta started, in any case.

Good point.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Plus it seems like people only like to talk about Sawyers ''failures'' and forget about the good/interesting mechanics/systems he added. Just to name a few: melee engagement system, stealth system, rest system (in combination with health/stamina one of the the best innovations in crpg history), health/stamina system, scripted interactions and per encounter abilities.

[...]

For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

Jesus, man, is Sawyer your cousin or something? Best man at your wedding?

None of us have any idea whether or not mechanics like engagement, stealth, or ability rationing are good or not...the full game isn't out. We don't have access to all of the content to see if the systems are well expressed in play. For all we know the per-encounter/rest/at-will system of rationing may lead to extremely formulaic, paint-by-numbers battles that all blend together in terms of overall feel. Melee engagement could be utterly broken by poor pathfinding or could be an extremely frustrating ordeal to play or position around. Stealth could feel like a retarded minigame. Or, alternatively, all these mechanics could turn out splendidly. It all depends on the content and how the systems come together within it.

But as of now, any proclamations of genius are a bit premature.

 

[Frusciante]

Plus it seems like people only like to talk about Sawyers ''failures'' and forget about the good/interesting mechanics/systems he added. Just to name a few: melee engagement system, stealth system, rest system (in combination with health/stamina one of the the best innovations in crpg history), health/stamina system, scripted interactions and per encounter abilities.

[...]

For the weak people that are being influenced by the morons in this thread: don't panic, PoE will be great. In fact it will be the best rpg in the last ten years.

Jesus, man, is Sawyer your cousin or something? Best man at your wedding?

None of us have any idea whether or not mechanics like engagement, stealth, or ability rationing are good or not...the full game isn't out. We don't have access to all of the content to see if the systems are well expressed in play. For all we know the per-encounter/rest/at-will system of rationing may lead to extremely formulaic, paint-by-numbers battles that all blend together in terms of overall feel. Melee engagement could be utterly broken by poor pathfinding or could be an extremely frustrating ordeal to play or position around. Stealth could feel like a retarded minigame. Or, alternatively, all these mechanics could turn out splendidly. It all depends on the content and how the systems come together within it.

But as of now, any proclamations of genius are a bit premature.

Yes I know that statement was a bit too much. But based on the beta I see many qualities in the game that I have not seen in the last ten years. And this has more to do with the lack of any good crpg's then with PoE itself.

Also the engagement and stealth system can be tested in the beta even in these few encounters. And I like them even with the current lack of UI etc. Long term quality cannot be tested ofcourse.

Edit: you guys also seem obsessed with Sawyer and I see I also now am talking about Sawyer did this and did that. But honestly we don't know who came up with what etc. There are 20 (?) people working on this full time so unless Sawyer is a dictator it's only fair to give other peole some ''credit'' too.

 

[MicoSelva]

A certain kind insect has shared her spare beta key with me, so it is probably Eternity LP time soon, although the save/load game issues might prove to be too much of an obstacle. We will see.

 

[covr]

My predictions for the future:
-PoE released in December 2014, still quite buggy, metacritic 8,2
-Heavy patching for the next 3 months
-Q1 2015 - kickstarter for the expansion, new lead designer. Obsidian gets $1-2 mil.
-Expansion released in the Q4, it's good, cozy and even more IE-like.
-Sawyer cry
- Q4 - Kickstarter for PoE2, Sawyer is only a common designer, not having much impact on the game. They are getting rid of % stats impact, overall revision of stat system. People are happy, game gets $4 mil.
-Sawyer is transferred into Armored Warfare team permanently, designing DLC's and expansions.
-Q4 2014 - Codex megathread is 9999 pages long, XenForo breaks down, all accounts deleted.