Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Infinitron]

But think is, that's the most basic D&D possible.

When you're creating a foundation, you compare it to the foundations of other systems.

This is role-playing bro. Next time let Tim Cain design this shit. Peace.

Because when you try to skip having a solid foundation, you get Arcanum.

BTW Roguey, post sources: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=12#post455890403

 

[AwesomeButton]

AwesomeButton Just saw your text wall. >_> Uh, what can I say? I think your expectations were set too high. And I'm also pretty sure you could pick apart FO:NV in the same way (I have). Have you played it? Neither game has Tolkien-calibre academic worldbuilding, and even Tolkien shied away from going into detail about cities, probably for good reason.

Re: "maturity", what Josh said in the Kickstarter video (at 4:12 or so) is "mature themes", and I think the quests in Defiance Bay largely fulfill that.

Looking at it now, I agree they were too high, but that's what they were when I was making my pledge for the game.

I've played through FONV once, and have about a dozen unfinished playthroughs, and liked it well enough, but FONV didn't make the same claims PoE made - serious, more "retro" fantasy, as opposed to current trends, etc.

For a believable medieval city, look in Witcher 3. It's even set in late middle ages-renaissance too. I don't think it's impossible to convey the same atmosphere for a medieval city in a 2d isometric game. It just wasn't the aim in PoE's design for Defiance Bay. It doesn't seem anyone gave any thought to the considerations I've listed.

BTW, my text walls will continue, as this is a forum, not twitter. If anyone is bored they can skip m posts.

 

[Infinitron]

Text walls are fine.

In other news, it looks like the beta patch was updated yesterday. New stuff: http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/7/entry-190-update-notes-300-beta/

Survival:

• Damage Reduction bonuses have been halved (was +2/+4/+6, now +1/+2/+3).
• Heal Multipliers are now +20%, +40%, +60%.

Athletics

• Athletics now heals a base of 20 + (Athletics*4) Endurance. At 1 Athletics, it will heal base 24. At 12 Athletics, it will heal base 68.

Cipher:

• Increased the base amount of Focus gain per point of damage dealt from 0.25 to 0.35.
• Whisper of Treason changed from long cast time to short cast time.
• Puppet Master changed from long cast time to an instant cast.
• Puppet Master base duration increased from 10s to 16s.
• Soul Shock radius increased from 1.25 to 1.75 (2.5m to 3.5m diameter).
• Tenuous Grasp Frightened base duration increased from 6s to 15s.
• Antipathic Field minimum damage increased from 10 to 13.
• Amplified Thrust damage increased from 30-40 to 40-55 Pierce.
• Mental Binding AoE Stuck duration increased from 4s to 6s.
• Mental Binding targeted Paralyzed duration to 8s base.
• Mind Blades base damage raised from 10-20 to 18-28. Each bounce reduces the damage range by 10% (still 5 bounces).
• Psychovampiric Shield Deflection bonus from 10 to 25.
• Soul Ignition from 17 Burn to 22 Burn damage per tick.
• Mind Lance projectile radius increased from 0.5m to 0.75m.
• Silent Scream AoE damage raised from 15-25 base to 28-40 base. Target damage raised to 35-50 base, Stunned duration 8s base.
• Disintegration from long to short cast, 5m range to 10m range.
• Disintegration Raw damage increased from 30 per tick to 40 per tick.
• Amplified Wave Prone duration to 8s base.
• Borrowed Instinct from 15s to 25s base duration.
• Detonate base damage from 30-50 Raw to 50-75 Raw. AoE base damage from 30-50 Crush to 45-60 Crush.
• Ringleader AoE Charmed duration from 8s base to 12s base.
• Tactical Meld base duration from 20s to 25s.
• Time Parasite from 5s base duration to 12s base duration.

Gameplay

• The following equipment mods have been tuned up: Preservation, Defiance, Fenwalker (resistance mods), Freedom, and Healing Bonus.

Spells and Abilities

• All Prayer Against _____ spells now have a base 20s duration (was 30s) and radius increased from 2.5m to 3m.
• Set the duration of Dichotomous Soul to base 15s.
• Arkemyr's Capricious Hex now has variable durations for each of its afflictions.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

I already done the Stronghold quest that needs to be activated via console for now. I expect an attack any day now Really like the changes.

 

[felipepepe]

When you're creating a foundation, you compare it to the foundations of other systems.

Baldur's Gate is just AD&D's basic module and it still blows PoE out of the water with dual & multi-classing, magic schools and all that.

Also, this is the guy who just said:

I've been playing A/D&D for 31 years and designing CRPGs with those systems for the better part of 17 years. I get how ability scores work and don't work in different contexts.

He's standing on the shoulders of giants and acting all smug & know-it-all, yet still can't rival a game from 1998, based on a ruleset from 1989. What next, I should compare it with 1974's D&D for it to be "fair"?

 

[Prime Junta]

Baldur's Gate is just AD&D's basic module and it still blows PoE out of the water with dual & multi-classing.

If you honestly, genuinely think AD&D's class system is better than Pillars', I have to seriously question your judgment.

 

[felipepepe]

No, AD&D's classes are indeed more limited, due to the lack of talents & active skills. What I'm saying is that Baldur's Gate, the 18-year old foundation of PoE, offered a lot more flexibility within its classes due to dual/multi-classing.

PoE just took D&D 3rd edition, removed multi-classing & prestige classes, almost all non-combat skills & spells and devolved attributes into meager "+%" bonuses. They don't limit, define nor enable you, just make you slightly better at something. That isn't an achievement, it's a weaker, derivative version of a system from 15 years ago.

 

[Ellef]

Ad&d destroys pillows still.

 

[Infinitron]

Re: attributes, something else Josh said in that SA thread is relevant here:

Well, yes and no. Strength is of less relative importance in later editions of D&D at higher levels because the number of potential inputs into bonus damage increases dramatically. Feats, prestige classes, and varied equipment bonuses can lead to Strength's contribution to damage being less significant than it was in earlier editions.

The same logic applies to PoE - when all characters have a lifetime of stat-boosting talents ahead of them granted per-level, the significance of attributes has to be reduced. They're simply not the one thing that makes or breaks your character anymore. They're just a template for further character development.

 

[felipepepe]

Thus, the game would have made much more sense if he removed attributes altogether and instead asked you to pick Fallout-like Traits or, better yet, Arcanum-like backgrounds during character creation - which add many role-playing options and can impact not only stats but also equipment, reaction and whatever else he wants.

 

[Roguey]

Damage Reduction bonuses have been halved (was +2/+4/+6, now +1/+2/+3).
All Prayer Against _____ spells now have a base 20s duration (was 30s)

The balance... the balance...

What I'm saying is that Baldur's Gate, the 18-year old foundation of PoE, offered a lot more flexibility within its classes due to dual/multi-classing.

Baldur's Gate 2 was a sequel, chum. Multiclassing in BG wasn't anything much to speak about.

Additionally, Josh hates D&D's prestige classes because they require you to plan out your entire build from level 1 and if you make a mistake while leveling, welp goodbye build.

 

[Infinitron]

The concept of prestige classes/kits/etc is preserved in PoE to a small degree with the main character's (p. crappy) unique Watcher abilities, and various faction-related Talents that you can earn. Perhaps a future game could offer various suites of abilities that are aligned to factions within the game world. Maybe they could even have class limitations and stuff to make them feel more "buildy".

 

[J_C]

The only problem with PoE's system is the use of per encounter spells and abilities, which lead to MMOesque micromanagement in combat and the lack of non-combat skills. Character builds were fine and varied.

 

[felipepepe]

Multiclassing in BG wasn't anything much to speak about.

Multi-classing:

]

Dual-classing:

That's a lot to speak about.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, you gave me a list of names, but does any of that feel extraordinarily different?

Here's a thing to consider: Is character-building more interesting in ToEE than it is in PoE? Because I've completed two full-party runs in the former and didn't find it particularly interesting.

 

[felipepepe]

Stop bullshitting Roguey, you know that playing solo with weird class combos is one of the most distinct features in the BG games. There are countless videos, LPs, threads and pages on this. And that's solo-play, there's still how many options it opens for regular play and even for party member customization - like dual-classing Imoen into a Fighter. Soloing in PoE is - "pick a class class, buy tons of consumables to summon monsters". Fuck that.

Also, ToEE has the systems there, but the presentation is a bit unimpressive - small screens, dull icons, etc. Compare PoE to NWN2, which uses the full 3rd D&D ruleset but feels more "meaty".

 

[Roguey]

you know that playing solo with weird class combos is one of the most distinct features in the BG games.

None of these games were designed for solo runs and I refuse to play or evaluate them as such.

there's still how many options it opens for regular play and even for party member customization - like dual-classing Imoen into a Fighter

Dual classing thieves into something else is a necessity because thieves are a garbage class only useful for the convenience of disarming traps and picking locks. One could also just eat the damage from the former and use Knock for the latter (which people like Grunker have said they've always done).

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

you know that playing solo with weird class combos is one of the most distinct features in the BG games.

None of these games were designed for solo runs and I refuse to play or evaluate them as such.

there's still how many options it opens for regular play and even for party member customization - like dual-classing Imoen into a Fighter

Dual classing thieves into something else is a necessity because thieves are a garbage class only useful for the convenience of disarming traps and picking locks. One could also just eat the damage from the former and use Knock for the latter (which people like Grunker have said they've always done).

who the fuck cares how do you evaluate games?the fact is soloing IE games is fun. soloing PoE is fucking tedious banal shit boring task.

dual classing thieves is not necessity. there are traps that will straight up kill you if you fail the saving throw or fuck up you whole team if you dont disarm them. you cannot simply walk-through all traps in game. instead of memorizing fucking knock you could have there web/invicibility/melf acid arrow/horror etc which are much better and not so situational spells. high level thieves can one shot shit with back-stabs and swashbuckler kit is one of the better warriors in IE games. as always you talk shit about things you know nothing about. like PoE

 

[Roguey]

soloing IE games is fun

Not for me it isn't.

there are traps that will straight up kill you if you fail the saving throw or fuck up you whole team if you dont disarm them. you cannot simply walk-through all traps in game.

1) Detect traps spells/power word reload

2)Avoid those areas entirely.

Having a thief in your party is not mandatory, you can complete the crit path in the BG games without disarming or unlocking anything.

instead of memorizing fucking knock you could have there web/invicibility/melf acid arrow/horror etc which are much better and not so situational spells.

You don't need knock memorized. When you come to a lock, rest to switch spells, then rest to switch back.

 

[Arkeus]

Stop bullshitting Roguey, you know that playing solo with weird class combos is one of the most distinct features in the BG games. There are countless videos, LPs, threads and pages on this. And that's solo-play, there's still how many options it opens for regular play and even for party member customization - like dual-classing Imoen into a Fighter. Soloing in PoE is - "pick a class class, buy tons of consumables to summon monsters". Fuck that.

That's... what? Like, I am not good enough to Solo Poe, but I am pretty sure those who have been doing a lot of PoE solo-ing are semi-regularly talking about how each classes not only is complely different for such, but each class also is able to solo in completely different ways depending on stat alloc.

Again, maybe people changed their tune since then, but I distinctly remember all the people who actually played the game solo praising the class varieties.

OTOH, BG solo-ing is...very lacking. Hell, even with Tutu/etc it's still not that great.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

soloing IE games is fun

Not for me it isn't.

there are traps that will straight up kill you if you fail the saving throw or fuck up you whole team if you dont disarm them. you cannot simply walk-through all traps in game.

1) Detect traps spells/power word reload

2)Avoid those areas entirely.

Having a thief in your party is not mandatory, you can complete the crit path in the BG games without disarming or unlocking anything.

instead of memorizing fucking knock you could have there web/invicibility/melf acid arrow/horror etc which are much better and not so situational spells.

You don't need knock memorized. When you come to a lock, rest to switch spells, then rest to switch back.

yes, lets skip the whole quest line to avoid difficult traps so you dont have to keep a thief in your team. you really made a point about them being useless as a class

dual classing thieves is not mandatory you can complete the game with a thief without second class and they will stay relevant and useful through the whole play-through

i wonder what is fun in IE games for you? save/reload minigame to prove your point?

 

[Roguey]

yes, lets skip the whole quest line to avoid difficult traps so you dont have to keep a thief in your team. you really made a point about them being useless as a class

The other classes are far more useful. If one designed a D&D crpg campaign with no locks or traps (e.g. Knights of the Chalice), thieves would be a total noob trap. Pierre Begue had to give them magic spells for viability in his plans for kotc2.

you can complete the game with a thief without second class and they will stay relevant and useful through the whole play-through

This is an overstatement. Backstab-immune enemies.

 

[BBMorti]

Thiefs are one of the absolutely strongest solo No-reload classes on BG2. I should know, having done it with an assassin and the absurdly strong bounty hunter. This is modded BG2.

Being shitty at playing a game doesn't mean a class is useless, by default.

 

[Infinitron]

IMO, the potential for interesting character building exists in any system of sufficient complexity. You just have to be willing to engage yourself with it. It's possible that different types of systems are more easily "engageable" to different people depending on what they're used to. Systems with fewer, more powerful build choices vs systems with lots of smaller ones that need to be stacked. Systems where build choices are intermixed with certain fixed constraints that ground the fantasy in an archetype vs systems where everything is an option and everything is viable. Etc.

And on that note, what is this thread about?

 

[Theldaran]

I'm not sure I want more PoE. They will need to work hard on fixing its multiple pitfalls. If they come up with a game as generally boring as the first, they can go screw themselves.