Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Prime Junta]

So, the only way to be a "good player" and bask in the glory of the design is to play the most standard of parties and not be a deviant with 2 priests in the party or else it breaks the careful juggle of absolute balance.

You really think in absolutes, don't you? The only alternative to stacking classes is "most standard of parties."

Again: the way to be a "good player" is to play through it once with a balanced party so you know what everybody does, and then go wild trying any damn fool thing you can think of. "A balanced party" here just means "a party where you don't stack classes," more or less. (You can make balanced parties which do stack classes too, but you need to know what you're doing. And you can make unbalanced parties which are fun to play. But again, it's unlikely you'll manage it on your first run.)

I.e., if you want Durance in the party, don't play a priest. That's all. We told you that, but you wouldn't listen, and now you're complaining about how it turned out. Poor you.

 

[Lacrymas]

The only reason I hate the combat is because I have 2 priests in the party? And that doesn't strike you as odd or "thinking in absolutes"? If I get rid of Durance and get, say, a rogue or monk, the brilliance will rain from the heavens? This is an honest question, I really want to know if that's what it takes.

 

[Quillon]

"thinking in absolutes"? If I get rid of Durance and get, say, a rogue or monk, the brilliance will rain from the heavens?

Yeah, you don't think in absolutes.

 

[Lacrymas]

Then I don't understand what you are talking about. It's just going to get mildly better then? A teensy pinch of good? A lukewarm increase? What?

I am perfectly aware of Prime Junta's attempt at demagoguery. The one True™, Correct® and Good© way to play PoE is 3 Melee (or with 1 tank, most likely a fighter, a paladin will almost be too deviant), 2 Ranged and 1 Support, with one of the ranged being Wizard, and maybe the support being Priest (too good buffs to not be), otherwise you are a "mediocre player that doesn't take the initiative, doesn't explore his options and the toy box will be too limited", you should also not create choke points or kite because "you grind the encounters only one way", allowing the mobs to wail on your squishies. You won't have squishies, though, because you shouldn't dump stats and make anyone a glass cannon, a "balanced" build should be employed by everyone.

Yeah, I'm slightly exaggerating for comic effect (the Wizard should be there, though, and no stacking!), but that's what it boils down to. You should play it the one way he deems appropriate, otherwise you'll hate it and it will be your fault. The biggest problem, however, is the way the combat is distributed across time due to the way recovery works. Since there are no rounds the individual actions of the units are chaotic, unpredictable and uncontrolled, recovery being the only metric with which they are measured, but that is up to the player, creating the need to overwhelm you with enemies on PotD, especially those that like to spam stuns like Caen Gwlas and its sister banshees or adragans with their storms, with the intent to try and control how much stuff you do per unit of time. It's also why it's so frontloaded, the enemies can't really keep up with your movements and actions after a certain point, so the more things they activate at the start the better and "harder" the encounters seem, hence the advice to "CC the Broodmothers quickly". Bulking up their defenses is also a cheap way to try to protract the fight (good thing they don't do it very often), making two priests very advantageous for quickly buffing up accuracy to get through it and rolling out immunities to the afflictions, hence the "don't stack them" "advice".

The best part of the combat in PoE is around 3rd to 6-7th level, where you have abilities to play with, but don't really have access to the OP stuff, so recovery doesn't really matter that much, both for you and for the enemies. It's kind of a simplistic run-down and many more factors are at play as to why the combat is so unpleasant from one point onward, but recovery is one of, if not THE, major ones. This is also one reason why Haste and Improved Haste are so overpowered in the IE games, they allow you to execute more actions per unit of time than normal (which is 1 spell per 6 seconds or the very controlled and predictable ApR of the melees), but the encounters are balanced without them in mind because it's not clear if the player will always have access to Haste or not, making them OP if used.

 

[Prime Junta]

How do you get from "don't stack classes" to "3 melee, 2 ranged, 1 support?"

I mean, are you being intentionally obtuse, or actually stupid?

 

[Lacrymas]

That's my impression from your posts in general, and it seems like the most balanced party, it might not be completely accurate, but ....*drum roll*....

Yeah, I'm slightly exaggerating for comic effect (the Wizard should be there, though, and no stacking!)

With my previous post I was trying to goad you into confessing that you think what I'm missing is a Wizard. All that bullshit about 2 priests ruining the entire experience is transparent. Replacing Durance with something other than a Wizard is pointless and won't change anything. Druids aren't as good and are useful primarily for the storms, i.e. an AoE CC, outside of straight damage that is, of which I have plenty already. Chanter is meh as well, at least in the context of "filling up the toy box".

 

[Prime Junta]

Nah, you haven't been "slightly exaggerating for comic effect." You've been constructing strawmen and then knocking them down.

You don't need a wizard. You need more tactical options. And a druid is as good as a wizard, just different.

Again: there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the party you rolled. It just kind of a bad idea for a first attempt, because it does significantly limit your options and, because of the awesome buffs, counters, and heals priests pack, steer you toward a particular (defensive) tactic -- i.e., holding a choke point. Which is what you're bitching about and blaming it on the game.

tl;dr you suck, stfu

 

[Lacrymas]

If you check your eyeballs (this is a pretty serious issue on the Codex), you'll see that the choke point thing is not actually my main problem with the combat, it's my main problem with the encounters. And no, it's not a strawman, you literally said that I'm a mediocre player because I don't take initiative to "explore my options" and don't play the party you deem appropriate for a first time, even though it's my second time through the game. I haven't held a choke point since I got Amplified Wave, the encounters didn't get better and they can't.

Since we are trading insults, a thing which you started - you are a massive shill with no standards and taste, but I think you know that already.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Everything is easier when you hold a choke point, it's not just because of the priests.

 

[Prime Junta]

Oh good, you switched to equivocation, like when you accused me of lying when I had said something about my opinion but you made it like I had said something about the game itself. The strawman isn't the choke points or that you're mediocre, it's your claim that I'm saying that you can only play the game with a wizard, or with 3 melee, 2 ranged, 1 support, or other similar stuff.

IME when people start throwing around logical fallacies in every post, they themselves know that they're kinda on thin ice. I.e. you kinda suck at this here arguing thing as well. Nyah nyah.

 

[Lacrymas]

Where are you seeing these things? What equivocation? What are you on? You accuse me of not playing the game "the right way for a first time" and that I'm mediocre for whatever reasons, and that's why I hate it. It's my fault the game is awful. Are you hearing yourself? Ok, it's not about a Wizard or 3 melee, 2 ranged and 1 support, who cares? I already stated that it's an exaggeration, that's not my main point at all. I already explained what my problem with the overall combat is, while the encounters are the same choke point fests which have nothing to do with 2 priests.

 

[Prime Junta]

You: Prime thinks Pillars encounters are all the same.
Me: I don't, and I never said so. I said it has too many trash mobs, which isn't the same thing.
You: You lie, because all encounters are the same.

That's equivocation. You made a claim. I made a counterclaim. You made another counterclaim to a claim I didn't actually make.

You: Prime says you can only play the game with 3 melee, 2 ranged, 1 support.
Me: I didn't say that, it's a strawman. I said you shouldn't stack classes on your first playthrough.
You: That's not a strawman, my problem isn't the choke points, it's the encounters.

Once more, you're making a counterclaim to a claim I never made. This is not a productive conversation.

(Edit: BTW, I'm not paid by anyone. That makes me a fanboy, not a shill. Get your insults straight.)

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Wasn't lack of encounter variety and repetitive tactics part of the reason for the updates/overhaul patches? I recall that being a common complaint around launch...

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, I concede on that first one, my bad, I didn't know you were talking about that. You never said you think all encounters are the same. The second one, however, is not correct, my problem IS the choke points related to the encounters, as in "my problem with the encounters is that the vast majority of them can be done this way, which makes them the same, and whether they spam storms or insect swarms is window dressing", but not the overall combat, I explained up there what my problem with that is.

(Edit: BTW, I'm not paid by anyone. That makes me a fanboy, not a shill. Get your insults straight.)

This is like saying "I'm not a whore, I do it for free". lololol.

 

[Colour Spray]

I think even Obsidian concedes the choke point thing. Even my moon god-like paladin with over 100 deflection gets to move around in combat very little because ice trolls getting free attacks is bad news even when you stack defenses. The thing to do then, is not move very much; but you don't want to concede that the monsters get free access to your cloth wearers either. So you want to limit their ability to move, also.

The few nods they gave to engagement counter feats are less than enthusing, also. In 3rd edition Attacks of Opportunity can be the same sort of aggravation, but the counter stat is available to be taken once somebody has pointed out to you how good it is.

It's sounds like a much more interesting idea for engagement to be a class specific ability; so I'm glad they've taken that approach in Deadfire.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah, choke-point fighting is a tactic that never appeared in this type of game until Pillars came out.

 

[Prime Junta]

This is like saying "I'm not a whore, I do it for free". lololol.

Exactly.

 

[Iznaliu]

The only reason I hate the combat is because I have 2 priests in the party?

This isn't quite as bad since the choke point issue doesn't exist, but I believe two priests in IE games would be OP.

 

[Haplo]

Choke point tactics is good early on, when your party is relatively weak compared to the enemies you face.
Later on it can be a fail-safe tactics to fall back on, but is wasteful in most cases.
It's much more efficient and fun to hold 2-3 flanks and have maximum number of enemies in your own aoes dying fast.

My Barbarian main would be very restricted by choke point tactics. It wouldn't allow him to reach half his damage potential.

 

[Prime Junta]

I still think Lacrymas's issue is that he's overinvested in defence and underinvested in attack/CC. This kinda pushes him into hedgehog tactics -- holding a choke point, then throwing buffs, counters, and if necessary heals, and then grinding down the enemy. The margins are fairly thin on higher difficulties, if you go offensive with something like that it's not gonna be all that much fun.

 

[Lacrymas]

But I haven't, my priest has the second highest damage done in the group (cipher is quickly catching up, however) behind the barbarian. She's built around sneak attacks, as she's a Skaenite. I use Durance for the majority of the casting. I roll out the buffs with both at the start and then jump into the fray with Durance handling everything else.

 

[Prime Junta]

But I haven't, my priest has the second highest damage done in the group (cipher is quickly catching up, however) behind the barbarian. She's built around sneak attacks, as she's a Skaenite. I use Durance for the majority of the casting. I roll out the buffs with both at the start and then jump into the fray with Durance handling everything else.

If your priest is the #2 damage dealer, it means you don't have a proper damage dealer in the group, Skaenite or not. Whatever you do, it won't measure up to an properly-built fighter, rogue, ranger, monk, barbarian, druid, or even offensive wizard. The best you can manage is above-average. Sorry.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ah, so it's going to be even faster and samey-er if I had even more damage in the group. Good to know.

EDIT: Checked the damages now, since I hadn't in a while, it seems she's fallen behind everyone else. Interesting.

 

[Lacrymas]

Is there a bug with the accuracy calculations on the character sheet? I've been noticing that it doesn't show them properly when I change weapon sets, same type of weapon -

Spoiler

 

[Quillon]

I'm disappointed in your character's name. That name from someone who complains about names-lore relations etc. bleh. Your whole life is lie :D

I suggest Murderosourus for your next playthrough.