Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Nano]

Reminder that the game should not be played without the IE Mod that lets you disable all of them.

 

[pomenitul]

I do feel slightly bad for these turbobackers. They spent significant amounts of money on this game to make it happen and all they've got to show for it are its most hated characters (self-inserts, to boot, which must be quite the blow to the ego).

 

[vortex]

I do feel slightly bad for these turbobackers. They spent significant amounts of money on this game to make it happen and all they've got to show for it are its most hated characters (self-inserts, to boot, which must be quite the blow to the ego).

Would be better they made them a proper villains, like Concelhaut, Thaos, etc. Villains are the only characters I remember from PoE.

 

[NJClaw]

Villains are the only characters I remember from PoE.

Write Thaos' entire name, then. Without looking it up. It's scientifically impossible, not even Josh can do it.

 

[pomenitul]

Thaos ix Arkannon. C'mon, Hubert Blaine Wolfeschlegelsteinhausenbergerdorff Sr this ain't.

 

[FreeKaner]

I always kill the one in gilded vale, you get a plate armor from one near the tree smoking a pipe. That's very strong armor at that stage of the game to give to Eder or Durance.

 

[dacencora]

Villains are the only characters I remember from PoE.

Write Thaos' entire name, then. Without looking it up. It's scientifically impossible, not even Josh can do it.

How is it not burned into your memory from Deadfire’s narrator pronouncing it completely differently from how it’s pronounced in PoE 1?

Also, Lacrymas is fake news. Skipping the majority of the dialogue won’t make the experience more enjoyable. The combat is not excellent enough to carry the game without the atmosphere built by the NPCs. Combat and text in the game are both fairly decent but neither is near the peak of the genre. I wouldn’t skip the combat just for the story either. This game is not PST, and it’s not KOTC2 either. It’s a pretty competent game that can be enjoyable if you let yourself get absorbed into it. Trying to skip a large proportion of the content won’t make for a good experience, and will probably sour the experience altogether. The game is what it is, and trying to force it to be something it isn’t will lead to a lackluster time.

 

[Lacrymas]

The combat is good enough, though. It's literally the only reason to play this game. Unless you want to make fun of the setting and writing, but you need someone else there with you.

 

[dacencora]

I disagree. It’s fairly decent. Like I said, it’s not top-tier stuff but if you like fantasy and you like Baldur’s Gate, the game is pretty enjoyable. Yes, it has a lot of issues, but overall it’s a fun game with a bit of charm.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Imo, the entire POE experience can be summed up by: You grazed Xaurip Champion for 0.2 damage.

Sawyer's a fucking hack who directed the most boring CRPG in recent memory and damage points recorded in tenths of a point will never not piss me off. Just multiply everything by 10 if you want to be that granular, you autistic prick.

 

[Sunri]

Combat is the worst thing in poe.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Combat is the worst thing in poe.

I think I actually agree with this. The overall plot and ideas are interesting, even with the wikipedia writing.

 

[dacencora]

Yeah under a microscope, the combat falls apart pretty bad. The mechanics are not great, and are very inferior to AD&D.

But, I still remember quite a few encounters years later, so there’s some good stuff. I think 90% of what I remember is from White March, though. The Ice Dragon, the different adventurer parties that you fight in the snow for bounty hunting, the encounters at Durgan’s Battery. Finding the Stormcaller Bow. The monks at the Moon Pool place or whatever it was called. All very fun, for me at least.

 

[Lacrymas]

What exactly is bad about PoE's combat?

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yeah under a microscope, the combat falls apart pretty bad. The mechanics are not great, and are very inferior to AD&D.

But, I still remember quite a few encounters years later, so there’s some good stuff. I think 90% of what I remember is from White March, though. The Ice Dragon, the different adventurer parties that you fight in the snow for bounty hunting, the encounters at Durgan’s Battery. Finding the Stormcaller Bow. The monks at the Moon Pool place or whatever it was called. All very fun, for me at least.

I've actually never played WM1 or 2. I have them, but every time I start a new game with the express purpose of playing through them, I get bored somewhere around Caed Nua and uninstall.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What exactly is bad about PoE's combat?

What exactly isn't bad about PoE's combat?

 

[FreeKaner]

I have wrote this about PoE1's combat system:

I agree that PoE is lacking in strategic diversity and aside from a few key encounters, mainly centred in expansions unfortunately also, means that you will basically using same template in most fights diverging only to react to occasional differences. I don't think it is because of character system though, I think it's because lacklustre encounter design and a general lack of strong counter-play. You either start pro-actively and keep that going, using your momentum to overwhelm the fight or start defensive with buffs and win by attrition, for 95% of the fights there is no variance to choosing one of these. This was improved a bit with later patches as encounters were a bit more diversified, and some encounters required specific counter-plays & positioning etc. but it was not on the level of BG2.

Ultimately and unfortunately PoE1 became about more shaping a party around a general strategy and applying that tactically whenever possible rather than playing reactively according to your environment and what you encounter except very few cases which throws you off and requires you to change your tactics; These being Alpine Dragon fight where positioning and strong single target nuking is extremely important, Concelhaut fight especially because his unique spell that can remove a party member from the fight right at the start, second Raedric fight where they are all undead and cast charm, fight against Llengrath because she is a defensive battle-mage that needs to be countered and shut-down directly, WM fight against the Mushroom and WM fight(s) against the Eyeless. Even bounties that are generally challenging do not deviate much from the aforementioned building of a general party strategy and applying that either offensively or defensively.

Overall though I liked the basis of the system, it was just not very well developed and the encounter design except very few cases in a very long game made it rather samey.

Mind you I think PoE2 improved much in regards of encounter design in particular and have a lot of great fights.

 

[dacencora]

What exactly is bad about PoE's combat?

I guess I should say generally very inferior to AD&D.

Arcane casting in AD&D isn’t so strangled as it is in Pillars. Grimoire swapping is not a very fun mechanic for me, so the only arcane caster I ever brought with me was Aloth. Divine casting is not as much fun in Pillars as it is in BG, but of all the IE-clones, Druids and Priests in Pillars 1 are much more fun (including Deadfire, where they made them way less fun). Divine casting is my biggest gripe with the Pathfinder games because DCs are just kind of boring in them. The Magic system being only made for combat also makes it less complete than AD&D and it feels half-baked. This is where you can feel Sawyer’s autism for balance strongest, because he wanted to make sure that casters and fighters were on even footing. Contrasted to AD&D, where it uses a more counter-based system for balance, in that Magic-users are capable of much greater destruction but they sacrifice defense for greater offense. Melee warriors are the opposite. What’s funny is that depending on how you build Eder, he basically becomes the same thing as a defense-based fighter in AD&D (little to no damage but can take a massive beating). So basically Sawyer made arcane casters as boring as defense fighters in AD&D.

BUT, despite all of that, if you don’t get too autistic about how Pillars should be a specific way that you’re expecting it to be, it can be very fun by itself. Highlights of Pillars includes:

• Arquebus
• Pistols
• Emphasis on positioning
• Engagement
• Cipher

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, relying on the same tactic over and over is quite an issue, but iirc that happens at around lvl 8-10 when you become overpowered either way. Whether that's the combat system itself or the encounter design is a mystery. However, that doesn't really tell me anything about the actual mechanics and why they are bad.

What exactly is bad about PoE's combat?

I guess I should say generally very inferior to AD&D.

Arcane casting in AD&D isn’t so strangled as it is in Pillars. Grimoire swapping is not a very fun mechanic for me, so the only arcane caster I ever brought with me was Aloth. Divine casting is not as much fun in Pillars as it is in BG, but of all the IE-clones, Druids and Priests in Pillars 1 are much more fun (including Deadfire, where they made them way less fun). Divine casting is my biggest gripe with the Pathfinder games because DCs are just kind of boring in them. The Magic system being only made for combat also makes it less complete than AD&D and it feels half-baked. This is where you can feel Sawyer’s autism for balance strongest, because he wanted to make sure that casters and fighters were on even footing. Contrasted to AD&D, where it uses a more counter-based system for balance, in that Magic-users are capable of much greater destruction but they sacrifice defense for greater offense. Melee warriors are the opposite. What’s funny is that depending on how you build Eder, he basically becomes the same thing as a defense-based fighter in AD&D (little to no damage but can take a massive beating). So basically Sawyer made arcane casters as boring as defense fighters in AD&D.

BUT, despite all of that, if you don’t get too autistic about how Pillars should be a specific way that you’re expecting it to be, it can be very fun by itself. Highlights of Pillars includes:

• Arquebus
• Pistols
• Emphasis on positioning
• Engagement
• Cipher

Yes, arcane magic not being as laughably unbalanced as in BG2/AD&D (it's still ridiculous btw) definitely ruined the entire combat system. Wait until you hear about parties with no wizards in them, those are a hoot.

 

[Dwarvophile]

Yeah under a microscope, the combat falls apart pretty bad. The mechanics are not great, and are very inferior to AD&D.

But, I still remember quite a few encounters years later, so there’s some good stuff. I think 90% of what I remember is from White March, though. The Ice Dragon, the different adventurer parties that you fight in the snow for bounty hunting, the encounters at Durgan’s Battery. Finding the Stormcaller Bow. The monks at the Moon Pool place or whatever it was called. All very fun, for me at least.

Combat encounter design is better in the White March expansion, but the combat system is still obsfucated.

 

[dacencora]

Yes, arcane magic not being as laughably unbalanced as in BG2/AD&D (it's still ridiculous btw) definitely ruined the entire combat system. Wait until you hear about parties with no wizards in them, those are a hoot.

I have consistently said that I enjoy Pillars. While I think it has issues, it’s overall very enjoyable and I have fond memories of it. I think it is inferior to Baldur’s Gate 1/2, but still a lot of fun, and probably the closest thing in terms of spirit and sense of adventure. I don’t think any one thing “ruined” Pillars, because I don’t think Pillars sucks. I like it. However, I don’t care at all about making sure that a Wizard is the same power-level as a Fighter. They’re different and they should feel different, power-wise. As far as balance goes, Fire Emblem is king for me. Magic users can absolutely devastate anything from a range, but if a fighter gets close to them, they’re toast. But even within the classes there are different hard counters (light vs black magic, swords vs axes, axes vs spears, spears vs swords, etc) and then you even have ways to try and mitigate weaknesses by using different armors or employing a shield, or using a flyer or using a horse, and all of these things have stuff they’re strong against and stuff they’re weak against. It makes for extremely satisfying tactical combat and removing counters is the worst and most boring way to balance stuff.

I love Baldur’s Gate, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s perfect either. Fighters are boring a lot of the time unless you cast Haste on them, and even then they only really get interesting when you have HLAs, but then you have to deal with Throne of Bhaal which sucks. I think Fighters are more interesting in Pillars. I also love Monks and Ciphers in Pillars and both are fairly unique in their implementation.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, ok, I got it. Anyone else care to explain to me why PoE's combat (system) is bad?

 

[Orud]

Pillars isn't bad, I enjoy playing it, but it's merely 'ok' at everything (and that's fine). Many people expected more of it at launch considering the resume of the people that worked on it, and many people still expect more out of it because it's received the moniker of 'the one that revived the crpg genre'.

It also doesn't help that it's sequel was a dud, having one of the most disappointing launches in recent crpg history.

Yeah, ok, I got it. Anyone else care to explain to me why PoE's combat (system) is bad?

I think anything not spellcasting related is better than the IE games. Mostly because I think the spells are boring, and you can't cast them out of combat (although it has the advantage of preventing pre-buffing hell). Although I'm not a big fan of armor slowing down actions.

It's a slightly flawed, but OK system. Which is better than can be said about many cRPG's that are considered classics.

 

[FreeKaner]

Yeah, ok, I got it. Anyone else care to explain to me why PoE's combat (system) is bad?

It relies too much on outmuscling of enemy stats in a "gear check" type of grind and not enough on more finer rock-paper-scissor type of tactical decisions. It's a system designed and tuned around attrition. Particularly it doesn't mesh well with layers and layers of dogmatic streamlining that exists at every level from character creation to level up to combat itself, one or two of those layers would already make the system too much about gradients and not enough about outlines but all of it just makes it a vague mess. There is just too much of what one can call "hack&slash" type of stacking of % modifiers to cross thresholds and less fundamental building blocks to navigate.

I wouldn't call it bad personally but I think it gets carried by itemization which is excellent and probably the best in entire cRPG genre along with PoE2. It's also vastly improved by better encounter design, which is very good in white march and PoE2. However PoE2 has other problems with combat (particularly the overused "inspirations & afflictions" system) but that's another topic.

 

[dacencora]

I've actually never played WM1 or 2. I have them, but every time I start a new game with the express purpose of playing through them, I get bored somewhere around Caed Nua and uninstall.

If you didn’t care for Pillars at all, White March won’t change your mind. If you liked Pillars even a little bit, White March has the best content in the game. People are mixed on the companions from WM, which is understandable, but I liked Devil of Caroc a lot. Interesting character design + interesting past + pretty great addition to combat encounters made her memorable to me.