Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll be honest I never really understood what their point was when the only people who could possibly remember at that point were watchers.
Shouldn't they have just made a society dedicated to finding and killing watchers? Seems like it would have been more effective.

 

[Delterius]

It might, it has, and it probably could, still. That's the central question of the overarching story.

But just simply teaching the Kith that they must "repent" in order to not be sacrificed to the Wheel would seem to be a better use of the Leaden Key than trying to make sure that they never find out that souls are sacrificed. However, I think this is probably why it falls apart a little bit, because sin, condemnation, repentance, redemption, salvation, etc. only really make sense in the context of monotheism because if each of the gods have their own laws and rites, and kith are free to choose which god to worship, then there is no universal righteousness.

I don't think it's that people are routinely sacrificed to the Wheel. People simply die. In so doing they go through the Beyond, the Wheel and Reincarnate. Only to do it again. In this process they empower the Gods, who also strengthen mortals either via their teachings or their chosen agents. The purpose of the Leaden Key, the Hand Occult, and several other groups is to make sure mortals never discover that this system is held together by duct tape and actual machines which exist in the mortal plane. Rather than an universal value, the ideas you've cited are the specific portfolio of Eothas. Those are his personal beliefs, which is another thing that separates the Engwithan golems from the abrahamic God.

Moreover the fact that the Gods are not absolute and their order is one of many, an order which the Gods themselves have changed, just takes us back to the initial theme of the story and the initial question you asked. Couldn't the Engwithans have created the Gods to re-create a christian conception of the world? Sure. But they didn't.

 

[dacencora]

St. Agustine argued that God could not be corporeal and that he had to be exist outside of time and space. According to Aquinas, he is Being in the higher sense, not such or such a being but Being as such, and everything that "is" exists only by virtue of God being Existence in and of itself in it's absolute essence.

Interesting. It's a very intriguing concept and argument. I don't personally have belief in anything in particular anymore after leaving Mormonism so this is very interesting. What's even more interesting is that there was a Mormon scholar named James E. Talmage who was very taken with writings of ancient historians like Josephus and he really tried to understand Judaism (because Mormonism is sort of neo-Judaic in that they believe themselves to be the literal descendants of the house of Israel and are as such entitled to the blessings of the covenant God made with Abraham). So he wrote a lot about this subject of Being and gave this as the reason that God declared Himself "I AM" which you pointed out later in your comment.

God is the "I AM THAT I AM"

And you'll have to forgive my ignorance, but Talmage claimed that Jehovah and Yahweh both meant more or less the same thing as "I AM".

Here, I'll find the exact passage.

Jehovah is the Anglicized rendering of the Hebrew, Yahveh or Jahveh, signifying the Self-existent One, or The Eternal. This name is generally rendered in our English version of the Old Testament as Lord, printed in capitals. The Hebrew, Ehyeh, signifying I Am, is related in meaning and through derivation with the term Yahveh or Jehovah; and herein lies the significance of this name by which the Lord revealed Himself to Moses when the latter received the commission to go into Egypt and deliver the children of Israel from bondage...The central fact connoted by this name, I Am, or Jehovah, the two having essentially the same meaning, is that of existence or duration that shall have no end, and which, judged by all human standards of reckoning, could have had no beginning; the name is related to such other titles as Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Consider that for most of Christian history it was forbidden to actually despict the Father, meaning that something like Michelangelo's Adam would have been considered blasphemous. God is the "I AM THAT I AM", he cannot be anthropomorphized.

But we're created in His image.

 

[dacencora]

I don't think it's that people are routinely sacrificed to the Wheel. People simply die. In so doing they go through the Beyond, the Wheel and Reincarnate. Only to do it again. In this process they empower the Gods, who also strengthen mortals either via their teachings or their chosen agents.

Yeah that's how they keep their power, but as far as I can recall, the Engwithans did a massive sacrifice to become the gods, right? So maybe "sacrifice to the Wheel" was misspeaking. Sacrifice to the Adra might be a better way to phrase it, but I may be missing some information because it's been a while since I played the game.

 

[Delterius]

I don't think it's that people are routinely sacrificed to the Wheel. People simply die. In so doing they go through the Beyond, the Wheel and Reincarnate. Only to do it again. In this process they empower the Gods, who also strengthen mortals either via their teachings or their chosen agents.

Yeah that's how they keep their power, but as far as I can recall, the Engwithans did a massive sacrifice to become the gods, right? So maybe "sacrifice to the Wheel" was misspeaking. Sacrifice to the Adra might be a better way to phrase it, but I may be missing some information because it's been a while since I played the game.

I think I see what you mean but let me open up the question a bit: why didn't the gods, say, just claim that there was a time they didn't walk the earth? And that the great cataclysm of ages past - the one that supposedly destroyed the Engwithans and the ancients of Deadfire and so on - simply triggered their 'return' and the punishment of mortals? I'd suspect the answer is that the Engwithan Pantheon was designed to disagree about everything.

Woedica would be the main proponent of such a narrative of sacrifice as it would subjugate mortals to the will of the Gods. Those like Abydon, Gawain, Magran and Eothas would be opposed to it by default. Others, like Ondra and Wael, though on the side of obscurantism, would also sabotage any effort to create a permanent, perfect doctrine and society in Woedica's terms. Skaen would oppose Woedica all the way up to the moment where she's strong enough to bring down. Rymrgand wouldn't care either way. Berath might be happy with it though as they are the Wheel and the Wheel would therefore gain even more meaning in people's lives.

The world that the Engwithan Gods created is not the product of a calm and collected design. It's not an unassailable truth. It's the result of several peers competing and experimenting with what works and what doesn't. And it can only become more dysfunctional over time.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Consider that for most of Christian history it was forbidden to actually despict the Father, meaning that something like Michelangelo's Adam would have been considered blasphemous. God is the "I AM THAT I AM", he cannot be anthropomorphized.

But we're created in His image.

Because of our essence, not our form.

"God became man so that man may become God".

That is the essence of Christianity. But theosis is only possible because of our theomorphic nature in the first place. Because we are an "image" of God, we can reflect his essence, much like a painting can reflect the essence of the particular reality it depitch (without for that reason being that reality).

 

[Sunri]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

 

[FreeKaner]

Modern fantasy writers cannot create spirituality in their games because they don't even know what it is. That's why all of them are just marvel-tier pantheons because their perception of religion doesn't go beyond "wow mythology cool" with very little knowledge of it. They don't even get basics of pagan religion, where it is meant to be about duty and ritual, as well as collective community wisdom.

 

[Delterius]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

 

[FreeKaner]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

Not at all. Main problem with it is the fact that the interface is a bit bloated and could be a bit more lean and fast. Overall requires about twice as much clicks than it should.

 

[dacencora]

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

It's Polynesia, btw. The language is mostly Maori, but Maori, Tahitian, Tongan, and Samoan all have very similar rules and sounds, so I think they used loanwords from the other Polynesian languages.

 

[NJClaw]

I'll be honest I never really understood what their point was when the only people who could possibly remember at that point were watchers.
Shouldn't they have just made a society dedicated to finding and killing watchers? Seems like it would have been more effective.

I think that there have to be ways to uncover how the wheel and gods work, at least through animancy studies. In Deadfire, one of the endings suggests that animancy could even achieve something greater than gods' ascension (this happens if you tell Eothas to gift the souls contained in the adra statue to kiths):

Spoiler

Killing watchers probably isn't needed because the words of a single person can't do much (even though apparently Iovara started an entire revolution on her own), but I'm sure the Leaden Key would take care of any problematic case. After all, they follow your movements since you reach Gilded Vale.

 

[Delterius]

Killing watchers probably isn't needed because the words of a single person can't do much

It actually is a problem. One Watcher spilled the beans about certain things Rymrgand wanted kept secret. Specifically the souls of the pale elves being perfectly preserved for all time even though their god promises them oblivion.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

I'd say "it should be a separate game".

I've never been among those triggered by the ship minigame, because it can easily be ignored. But then again, if a feature can easily be ignored, should it even be in the game?

Today we know that the minigame was put there due to Feargus' insistence.

 

[Grunker]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

bg got it right with contextual fortresses

making systems of them always ends up being terrible

 

[MajorMace]

Ships aren't an issue. Travel time on the world map is, and since it's about sailing and the ship system is pretty repetitive itself, it's kind of perceived as a ship issue.
From what I recall, you can ignore the ship system entirely (minus one occurence during the story which itself, doesn't matter anyway).

 

[Parabalus]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

bg got it right with contextual fortresses

making systems of them always ends up being terrible

PoE fortress is pretty rad though.

FreeKaner is right about the ships too, were the interface more lean it would be good. The battles can be tricky if you aren't decked out yet.

 

[Grunker]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

bg got it right with contextual fortresses

making systems of them always ends up being terrible

PoE fortress is pretty rad though.

 

[dacencora]

Also, the VAs butcher the aumauan language. In PoE1 it wasn't so bad because it was rare, but in Deadfire it is dreadful to hear the VAs because they have no idea how to pronounce any of the words.

 

[Delterius]

if a feature can easily be ignored, should it even be in the game?

well I still remember when bioware used that logic to cut almost everything from dragon age 2. so i think this should be decided on a per case basis.

i never liked Neverwinter Nights but i don't see how it could have been made worse by crossroad keep. i was disappointed in the Keep of PoE1 but it was so minimal I wasn't offended. Inquisition mechanics in DA3 were also minimal but in a bad way since they constituted mobile gatekeeping features with a very thin coat of storytelling on top of them. and while a lot of people hate kingdom management in the Pathfinder games I'd rather Owlcat kept this bit of charm going forward rather than opt for a sleeker design that might please everyone.

all I ask is that if you introduce some sort of secondary game system into your campaign it better not be something that I'd rather avoid

 

[Parabalus]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

It exists that's the problem.

you can't make an rpg set in indonesia with pirates and the dutch and not let you own a ship and do ship things with it

that should be illegal

bg got it right with contextual fortresses

making systems of them always ends up being terrible

PoE fortress is pretty rad though.

Which game did it better?

NWN2?

Both Pathfinders? But they are also much grander systems than just a stronghold.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

would have liked if the crew of your ship mattered more and made them more interesting to find

 

[Grunker]

bg did it better because it was contextual so you never felt you wasted your time. somewhat true for nwn2 as well

every game since has tried making involved systems of keeps, and everyone has failed. PoE and Pathfinder spectacularly so because those two required the most interaction with the system

in poe at least it's fairly quickly overwith and done with but that doesn't change the fact that all interactions with the system are mindless and boring

 

[NJClaw]

bg got it right with contextual fortresses

making systems of them always ends up being terrible

I'll leave before anyone starts defending kingdom management in Kingmaker. I can't take that right now.

Killing watchers probably isn't needed because the words of a single person can't do much

It actually is a problem. One Watcher spilled the beans about certain things Rymrgand wanted kept secret. Specifically the souls of the pale elves being perfectly preserved for all time even though their god promises them oblivion.

Well, don't get me wrong, the MC is a problematic case and the Leaden Key should have dealt with him much sooner. How the fuck Thaos managed to cause the fall of civilizations and at the same time get defeated by you, a funny farmer, a crazy pyromaniac, and a middle-aged lady in dirty clothes is a mystery to me.