Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Delterius]

idk I consider gods who can do lots of stuff to be omnipotent or so powerful that the distinction simply doesn't matter

words no longer have meaning i see

How does- distinction does not matter equate to meaningless words now?

because thats not what omnipotent means

Especially funny given how this all started with the meaning of "real".

Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise -- draw near, and withal bestow grace upon my song.

I will sing of Zeus, chiefest among the gods and greatest, all-seeing, the lord of all, the fulfiller who whispers words of wisdom to Themis as she sits leaning towards him. Be gracious, all-seeing Son of Cronos, most excellent and great!

his wife and children cucked his plans a million times and you think the guy was omniscient

 

[Grunker]

RPG Codex: "What's an RPG?"

PoE-thread: "What's an [everything else]?"

 

[Ulfhednar]

Zeus is theoretically omnipotent (more specifically "a perfect unmoved mover") if we are to believe Plato. This raises the question - why did the Engwithans create a pantheon of imperfect/limited gods rather than one omnipotent one? Or many omnipotent ones.

Goes back to that idea of an "unmoved mover" or "uncreated creator"...
If you're part of a pantheon, then there is something above you that is moving events.
If you're created by something, then it theoretically has power over you and you are not omnipotent.
If there is more than one omnipotent thing then something else exists which potentially has power over you.

 

[dacencora]

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent? I'm not trying to troll or anything, just curious, because that's the way they seem in the game.

omnipotent
adjective
almighty or infinite in power, as God.
having very great or unlimited authority or power.

I guess I could see an argument against omniscience, but their overwhelming personas that can manipulate souls and hear thoughts are so powerful that saying they're not omniscient seems like a difference without a distinction.

Yeah they did "kill" Eothas, but then he came back, so I think he still counts as omnipotent. Jesus was killed too, right? And most Christians believe that he is omnipotent. But maybe it's the wrong word?

 

[Delterius]

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent?

they don't have infinite power

 

[rusty_shackleford]

idk I consider gods who can do lots of stuff to be omnipotent or so powerful that the distinction simply doesn't matter

words no longer have meaning i see

How does- distinction does not matter equate to meaningless words now?

because thats not what omnipotent means

Especially funny given how this all started with the meaning of "real".

Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise -- draw near, and withal bestow grace upon my song.

I will sing of Zeus, chiefest among the gods and greatest, all-seeing, the lord of all, the fulfiller who whispers words of wisdom to Themis as she sits leaning towards him. Be gracious, all-seeing Son of Cronos, most excellent and great!

his wife and children cucked his plans a million times and you think the guy was omniscient

Not an expert on greek mythology, but hasn't the authorship of that particular story pretty hotly questioned throughout history?

 

[dacencora]

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent?

they don't have infinite power

Don't they? The ability to manipulate souls is the singular most powerful thing in Eora.

 

[Delterius]

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent?

they don't have infinite power

Don't they? The ability to manipulate souls is the singular most powerful thing in Eora.

that's not what omnipotent means. if the gods of eora were all powerful they wouldn't be in danger of ceasing to exist when the flow of souls is cut. they would be able to simply re-create the world and alter its fundamental laws. and they can't. they can nuke the planet if they want to but that would mean dying off. they are not omnipotent. they are also very much not omniscient either but i don't think anyone would make that argument.

 

[Nano]

Then there's Fensty with his "players have to know everything immediately" https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...expansion-thread.100006/page-339#post-7274644

Holy hell, Lyric Suite has really been having autistic meltdowns about PoE's systems for the past 9 months.

 

[dacencora]

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent?

they don't have infinite power

Don't they? The ability to manipulate souls is the singular most powerful thing in Eora.

that's not what omnipotent means. if the gods of eora were all powerful they wouldn't be in danger of ceasing to exist when the flow of souls is cut. they would be able to simply re-create the world and alter its fundamental laws. and they can't.

OK I can take your point, but I'm pretty sure that omnipotence does not preclude gods from being unable to alter fundamental laws. I grew up extremely religious and at least the religion that I grew up in claimed that God was bound by His own laws, meaning He couldn't just throw them away willy-nilly. The claim was that if He did, He would cease to be God, but it was a foregone conclusion, because as a perfect being he would not ever do that.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If there's nothing like the Christian God to compare it to, would they even have a word like our version of omnipotent?
If Zeus was considered to be "all-wise", "greatest", "all-seeing", "lord of all" they'd probably be considered the same in Eora.

 

[dacencora]

If there's nothing like the Christian God to compare it to, would they even have a word like our version of omnipotent?
If Zeus was considered to be "all-wise", "greatest", "all-seeing", "lord of all" they'd probably be considered the same in Eora.

Can the Christian God alter the fundamental laws of the world? If not, He would not be omnipotent according to Delterius.

Curious, because I grew up Mormon, and the Mormon version of God is certainly not an "uncreated creator". In fact, their belief is that he was once a mortal man that lived on a different planet who discovered the path to Godhood.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Well for instance, Woedica is trying to figure out what Eothas is doing and is uncertain if she'll be able to stop it.

How are the gods of Eora not omnipotent? I'm not trying to troll or anything, just curious, because that's the way they seem in the game.

I guess I could see an argument against omniscience, but their overwhelming personas that can manipulate souls and hear thoughts are so powerful that saying they're not omniscient seems like a difference without a distinction.

Yeah they did "kill" Eothas, but then he came back, so I think he still counts as omnipotent. Jesus was killed too, right? And most Christians believe that he is omnipotent. But maybe it's the wrong word?

A huge part of the history of the church was just arguing over questions like these and then codifying their answers in various creeds for different types of Christianity.

One of the general conclusions is that monotheism is the only system where omnipotence can exist. The trinity has all kinds of theories about how it works and I won't even try to get into that here.

The "will of God" is an important concept in Christian thought about omnipotence in the sense that all actions eventually bend to God's will. So Christ's death at the hands of creation can still be a part of the grand design, so to speak.

Back to Eora, the fact that Woedica and Eothas are working at cross purposes means that at least one of them cannot be omnipotent.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Can the Christian God alter the fundamental laws of the world?

He created the known universe.

Mormons aren't Christian, btw. They have far too many non-Christian beliefs that they try to keep out of public view.

In fact, their belief is that he was once a mortal man that lived on a different planet who discovered the path to Godhood.

Like this.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Back to Eora, the fact that Woedica and Eothas are working at cross purposes means that at least one of them cannot be omnipotent.

or so powerful that the distinction simply doesn't matter

The only ones capable of challenging them are other gods, the only ones who can understand their plans are other gods. From a mortal's perspective, they might as well be omnipotent.

 

[dacencora]

Can the Christian God alter the fundamental laws of the world?

He created the known universe.

Mormons aren't Christian, btw. They have far too many non-Christian beliefs that they try to keep out of public view.

In fact, their belief is that he was once a mortal man that lived on a different planet who discovered the path to Godhood.

Like this.

Yes I agree. They are most assuredly not Christian. That's why I asked you about Christian beliefs regarding omnipotence, because the Mormon version is...let's say unique.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Lyric Suite did you drop the game already?

No, real life called. But don't worry, i'll get to it.

If there's nothing like the Christian God to compare it to, would they even have a word like our version of omnipotent?
If Zeus was considered to be "all-wise", "greatest", "all-seeing", "lord of all" they'd probably be considered the same in Eora.

Can the Christian God alter the fundamental laws of the world? If not, He would not be omnipotent according to Delterius.

Curious, because I grew up Mormon, and the Mormon version of God is certainly not an "uncreated creator". In fact, their belief is that he was once a mortal man that lived on a different planet who discovered the path to Godhood.

Mormons aren't Christians. They are closer to being Scientologists.

 

[dacencora]

But beyond all of that, my original point was this:

What is the functional difference between a god and what the Engwithans became? There doesn't seem to be one to me. They behave as gods, they are worshipped as gods, they are gods. The "big secret" is that they derived their power from the turning of the Wheel. But like I said, people still believe in the Abrahamic God despite Him killing tons of people in the flood and in the Egyptian plagues. If the Engwithans merely said that the souls sacrificed were wicked, sinful souls, wouldn't that be enough for most of the kith?

 

[Delterius]

Can the Christian God alter the fundamental laws of the world?

Yes.

Think about it this way. If God is all knowing and all powerful then God's plan always was. There are no deviations. There are no contradictions. All actions eventually bend to God's will. There is no such thing as God breaking God's will and therefore ceasing to be anymore than you can will your cells to grow a third arm that explodes and kills you from blood loss.

Contrast that with Eothas whose motivations changed wildly from the moment of his conception to his incarnation and final death. Eothas is not all powerful. He can't force the other gods to change their ways, he can't change the fundamental nature of a universe which he did not create. Eothas also never knew everything. When the Gods first convened Eothas wanted to shepherd mortals into a better future. He believed mortals could be guided and would fundamentally change in such a way that the direct influence of the gods would one day be diminished in a good way. The Gods then would have less of a need to micro-manage the actions of mortals. When the Gods abandoned their mortal bodies he was likely overjoyed. When the Gods became dictators from the Beyond, he became more and more desperate.

Eothas broke the very agreements he and the other Gods created by incarnating into Eora. He wished to forcefully conquer the world as a living saint, intervening in a way that the other Gods hadn't for centuries if not thousands of years. His perspective as a mortal changed things however and Eothas started considering that the problem was the distance between the Gods and their worshippers. He saw that the Gods had created an amoral system of forceful obscurantism out of fear. So he wished to create a new covenant. That would only be possible through his death as a living god. If mortals could kill a god - albeit with the aid of another - then perhaps mortals would begin to demand more out of their deities. It didn't work because the Gods themselves just went into damage control, like with the Hollowborn Crisis. Finally Eothas decided to force the Gods into the negotiating table. He'd destroy the Lotus Machine that keeps the flow of souls going. Either the Gods play nice with mortals and together they re-design the flow of souls or everything will cease to exist. Eothas is betting on the weakness of the Gods not their strength to either sink or swim. And he can do that because the gods, though much greater than humans, are not omnipotent.

If the Engwithans merely said that the souls sacrificed were wicked, sinful souls, wouldn't that be enough for most of the kith?

It might, it has, and it probably could, still. That's the central question of the overarching story.

 

[dacencora]

Yeah I know, Mormons aren't Christian, I was trying to get a Christian perspective because I am lacking knowledge in that area.

 

[Ulfhednar]

The only ones capable of challenging them are other gods, the only ones who can understand their plans are other gods. From a mortal's perspective, they might as well be omnipotent.

That's one of those pesky questions - does mortal perspective matter to this analysis? But if you can be challenged by an equal, then it's not true to say that you are King of Kings, Lord of Lords, all those other fancy titles.

But beyond all of that, my original point was this:

What is the functional difference between a god and what the Engwithans became? There doesn't seem to be one to me. They behave as gods, they are worshipped as gods, they are gods. The "big secret" is that they derived their power from the turning of the Wheel. But like I said, people still believe in the Abrahamic God despite Him killing tons of people in the flood and in the Egyptian plagues. If the Engwithans merely said that the souls sacrificed were wicked, sinful souls, wouldn't that be enough for most of the kith?

This the point I was trying to make earlier - it doesn't make sense to say the gods aren't real if I can look outside the window and seem them walking around. There is no difference between the Engwithan gods and the gods of other pantheons. They are gods in that sense.

When Nietzsche said "God is Dead" he was trying to say that humans had subverted the divine will. That, specifically, Christian monotheistic omnipotence was dead and that humanity was being driven by its own will rather than the "will of God."

The reason the twist in PoE falls flat is because it's an apples to oranges situation. Eora isn't monotheistic, and trying to apply theology to it ends up in strange places.

 

[Delterius]

When Nietzsche said "God is Dead" he was trying to say that humans had subverted the divine will. That, specifically, Christian monotheistic omnipotence was dead and that humanity was being driven by its own will rather than the "will of God."

The reason the twist in PoE falls flat is because it's an apples to oranges situation. Eora isn't monotheistic, and trying to apply theology to it ends up in strange places.

I can almost see the lost PoE3 where we visit the eastern desert monotheists who were isolated from the rest of the planet for some reason and the narrative tries to make the sense that Divine Will was already usurped, ages before when the Engwithans created Gods with very specific portfolios. Too bad Deadfire had a meme main plot, terrible ship mechanics and so on so it sold 12 copies and now we'll get to play the Oblivion version of the setting instead.

 

[FreeKaner]

Nothing wrong with ship mechanics of PoE2 actually.

 

[Lyric Suite]

But beyond all of that, my original point was this:

What is the functional difference between a god and what the Engwithans became? There doesn't seem to be one to me. They behave as gods, they are worshipped as gods, they are gods. The "big secret" is that they derived their power from the turning of the Wheel. But like I said, people still believe in the Abrahamic God despite Him killing tons of people in the flood and in the Egyptian plagues. If the Engwithans merely said that the souls sacrificed were wicked, sinful souls, wouldn't that be enough for most of the kith?

If you are talking about God as it is understood in real life religions, the entire point is precisely that God is NOT actually a relative kind of being, something that is still woven in time and space.

St. Agustine argued that God could not be corporeal and that he had to be exist outside of time and space. According to Aquinas, he is Being in the higher sense, not such or such a being but Being as such, and everything that "is" exists only by virtue of God being Existence in and of itself in it's absolute essence.

Consider that for most of Christian history it was forbidden to actually despict the Father, meaning that something like Michelangelo's Adam would have been considered blasphemous. God is the "I AM THAT I AM", he cannot be anthropomorphized.

In a seemingly "polytheistic" religion like Hinduism, which appears to have many "gods", the Abrahamic God would be closer to the Atman, and most religion also have a conception of such an absolute, "prime" principle, whether it is the One of Plato, The Tao, the "Great Spirit" of the American Indians and so forth. Even Buddhism, which appears to be a non-theistic religion, also has a conception of this supreme reality or principle which they refuse to define precisely because to define it is to limit it, but the "void" of Buddhism is nothing other than the "holies of holy" of Judaism, or the "hidden treasure" of Islam etc.

Because most fantasy settings are created by dirty hippies who have no clue about any of this, it is not surprising that even when they admit to the existence of divine entities they envision them in terms that are purely relative, and it is not surprising that Pillars, which wants to be "adult" and "mature" in respect of previous fantasy settings, wants to dispense even of that.

 

[dacencora]

It might, it has, and it probably could, still. That's the central question of the overarching story.

But just simply teaching the Kith that they must "repent" in order to not be sacrificed to the Wheel would seem to be a better use of the Leaden Key than trying to make sure that they never find out that souls are sacrificed. However, I think this is probably why it falls apart a little bit, because sin, condemnation, repentance, redemption, salvation, etc. only really make sense in the context of monotheism because if each of the gods have their own laws and rites, and kith are free to choose which god to worship, then there is no universal righteousness.