Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Haplo]

Clearly, there isn't enough of that.
But didn't PoE actually go further with this then most other modern games?

In the Endless Dungeon you could fall into a pit and land a couple floors deeper, surrounded by potentially nasty enemies.

I think there was also one dungeon where you couldn't re-enter once you've left?

 

[Haplo]

Very few RPGs have ever locked us in a dungeon, so it's not like this is an industry standard. However, since they refuse to do this they kinda defeat the purpose of there being limited resources in the first place, so they try to design around that or remove resource attrition in general (like in PoE2). This rarely works out well because balance is something they rarely get right too, so the gameplay devolves into the same tactics for every group of enemies.

In order to make it worthwhile, you'd have to go back to something like set camp sites like in KOTC or some jrpgs or blobber random encounters so leaving the dungeon is still a resource management consideration.

This latter solution tends to fit more with most presentations of the dungeon situations where they're supposedly still dangerous despite you butchering every room you entered along the way.

I really liked how DDO handled this with the 1 use Rest Shrines spread trough the instances. There was always enough of them... but you had to consider the resource management.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Clearly, there isn't enough of that.
But didn't PoE actually go further with this then most other modern games?

In the Endless Dungeon you could fall into a pit and land a couple floors deeper, surrounded by potentially nasty enemies.

I think there was also one dungeon where you couldn't re-enter once you've left?

Yes, and camping supplies and limits based on difficulty. They should've went further in limiting the supply of them, but still, it was a move in the right direction.

 

[Axel_am]

There aren't any mods that lock the dungeon behind you? Seems like a wasted opportunity.

 

[mediocrepoet]

There aren't any mods that lock the dungeon behind you? Seems like a wasted opportunity.

Eh... given that installing a mod is a personally imposed modification of a game's files, you could just choose not to leave? Why do you need a mod if that's the choice you're making?

 

[Axel_am]

It would bring a different feeling if your hands are tied after entering the dungeon. It'd also put you in the "I better prep before I enter here" type of mentality. Sometimes you can underestimate the situation and end up soft locking yourself by accident. Tho I was referring to the comment by Lacrymas.

Personally I always pushed my party to the limit. No way am I enduring 2 loading screens just to buy supplies.

 

[GloomFrost]

I think the last game that proper locked you in a dungeon was Pathfinder Kingamker (not 100% Sure). It was one big challenging story dungeon with undead cyclops. And boy or boy God help you if you didn't have a well equipped cleric with anti-undead spell arsenal in your party, its pretty much "LOAD LAST AUTOSAVE". Wasted couple of hours myself because of that.

 

[Axel_am]

Wrath also has dungeons that lock you in. I remember going into one of them with my party half depleted and I wasn't able to finish it, so I had to either re-do the whole thing and lose 2hrs of progress or just drop the difficulty for the two final rooms.

I think it was one of the dungeons that had something to do with one of the Mythic Paths.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It would bring a different feeling if your hands are tied after entering the dungeon. It'd also put you in the "I better prep before I enter here" type of mentality. Sometimes you can underestimate the situation and end up soft locking yourself by accident. Tho I was referring to the comment by Lacrymas.

Personally I always pushed my party to the limit. No way am I enduring 2 loading screens just to buy supplies.

I suppose. And i understood what you were replying to, it was more about how being able to backtrack to town defeats any scarcity rules. All I was getting at is that since you're choosing to remove that option... it's sort of irrelevant whether or not there's a mod.

Though I agree that it's better to build that into the original design.

More to the point though, I've never had to buy camping supplies in POE and often have extras left unused in crates because I can't pick them up on PotD.

 

[Axel_am]

Yup, yup. Correct on all fronts.

They definitely could have done more with the Campaign mechanic. It's a bit bare bones without the ambushes, no dialogue from your party, cooking etc. I still like it tho. The way it is gives the game a faster feel to it.

 

[Sannom]

Very few RPGs have ever locked us in a dungeon, so it's not like this is an industry standard. However, since they refuse to do this they kinda defeat the purpose of there being limited resources in the first place, so they try to design around that or remove resource attrition in general (like in PoE2). This rarely works out well because balance is something they rarely get right too, so the gameplay devolves into the same tactics for every group of enemies.

And when they do, like in BG2 with the clock ticking before the Drows discover your disguise, they don't warn you.

 

[Haplo]

I think the last game that proper locked you in a dungeon was Pathfinder Kingamker (not 100% Sure). It was one big challenging story dungeon with undead cyclops. And boy or boy God help you if you didn't have a well equipped cleric with anti-undead spell arsenal in your party, its pretty much "LOAD LAST AUTOSAVE". Wasted couple of hours myself because of that.

Extra fun that you could have a fail-state game-over kingdom event activate and tick when travelling to / exploring /travelling back from that dungeon.

 

[GloomFrost]

I think the last game that proper locked you in a dungeon was Pathfinder Kingamker (not 100% Sure). It was one big challenging story dungeon with undead cyclops. And boy or boy God help you if you didn't have a well equipped cleric with anti-undead spell arsenal in your party, its pretty much "LOAD LAST AUTOSAVE". Wasted couple of hours myself because of that.

Extra fun that you could have a fail-state game-over kingdom event activate and tick when travelling to / exploring /travelling back from that dungeon.

LOL yeah. I have heard Kingdom management in general was responsible for most premature GAME OVERs.

 

[Axel_am]

I think the last game that proper locked you in a dungeon was Pathfinder Kingamker (not 100% Sure). It was one big challenging story dungeon with undead cyclops. And boy or boy God help you if you didn't have a well equipped cleric with anti-undead spell arsenal in your party, its pretty much "LOAD LAST AUTOSAVE". Wasted couple of hours myself because of that.

Extra fun that you could have a fail-state game-over kingdom event activate and tick when travelling to / exploring /travelling back from that dungeon.

Not really sure what they were thinking with that. There was also Valerie's companion quest which, if not done immediately, would decrease the stats of your kingdom until it's Game Over.

Thing is the game doesn't let you know where the location of the quest is, so you end up running around the map while your kingdom is getting cucked. On top of that if you've previously explored the area where the quest location is it will not be marked on your map and you need to pass by it again. None of this is explained.

 

[GloomFrost]

I think the last game that proper locked you in a dungeon was Pathfinder Kingamker (not 100% Sure). It was one big challenging story dungeon with undead cyclops. And boy or boy God help you if you didn't have a well equipped cleric with anti-undead spell arsenal in your party, its pretty much "LOAD LAST AUTOSAVE". Wasted couple of hours myself because of that.

Extra fun that you could have a fail-state game-over kingdom event activate and tick when travelling to / exploring /travelling back from that dungeon.

Not really sure what they were thinking with that. There was also Valerie's companion quest which, if not done immediately, would decrease the stats of your kingdom until it's Game Over.

Thing is the game doesn't let you know where the location of the quest is, so you end up running around the map while your kingdom is getting cucked. On top of that if you've previously explored the area where the quest location is it will not be marked on your map and you need to pass by it again. None of this is explained.

Yeah man and what about that quest when Ogres constantly attack and sestroy your kingdom and you genuinely don't have a clue how to stop it. Kingmaker was insanely brutal and unforgiven. Glad that none of that was in POE or WotR.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The first time figuring out wtf was going on with that stupid fucking portal site...

It was fine after that, but the first time figuring out the proper timing even with the journal note. Pain in the ass.

 

[Axel_am]

I generally link tough to swallow design choices, like the ones we just discussed, with old RPGs. Is it the same with you guys?

Absurd challenges are also something I connect with old school RPGs. But while Kingmaker was walking the line of absurdity most of the time, Pillars managed to pull off the old school difficulty I'm talking about much more elegantly.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I generally link tough to swallow design choices, like the ones we just discussed, with old RPGs. Is it the same with you guys?

Absurd challenges are also something I connect with old school RPGs. But while Kingmaker was walking the line of absurdity most of the time, Pillars managed to pull off the old school difficulty I'm talking about much more elegantly.

Interesting. I think I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree. It's true that Kingmaker had some jank and weird "difficulty" curves due to poorly explained mechanics, but I think that's mostly due to the ambition and scope of the game since many(?) (at least some of the influential ones) of them are fan-nerds and they were making a game they'd actually want. Unlike the times where that's marketing BS, I'm completely certain it's true in this case.

So, even when it's hard, Pathfinder's difficulty curve feels more fun and scaleable to me.

POE on the other hand, felt pretty soulless to me, like the mechanical innards of Soyer's robotic heart. Also, while system mastery is possible and begins to trivialize the difficulty (why there are so many solo POTD runs and why you can run around with maxed camping supplies 100% of the time), it never feels fun in the same way imo. It's just sort of there. YMMV of course, but I'd play Kingmaker over POE any day, even including the White March content, which is legitimately very good and a clear step above the rest of POE.

 

[Axel_am]

Hm, I see. For me the strongest part of Pillars is that all of the elements in the game compliment each other extremely well. I can acknowledge it's faults but I cannot call it soulless in any way. You can't have such a complete package and call it soulless. It's one of the few games where the music fits the art style and gameplay so perfectly. The whole atmosphere is just superb and has the ability to suck you in.

I'm not that well versed in Pathfinder, but aren't there a lot of combos that trivialize the difficulty as well? I remember spamming Toxic Cloud and Delay Poison, Communal almost every fight. Additionally with PF having an enormous amount of build choices it's difficult to compare them in such terms. Pillars gives you the basics and lets you learn among the way in a much more friendlier way than PF does.

I'd also say that the trivialization that happens when solo running Pillars is also present when solo running Kingmaker. If not more so just because PF lets you do more absurd stuff. When playing Pillars it felt like I can overcome any challenge simply by keeping my head down and looking for a weak spot. In Kingmaker, when challenges emerged, it felt more like I was simply missing something important and there is no chance of winning the fight without it.

 

[Axel_am]

Separating as I have some other Pillars related things to say and reply is getting too long.

I'm not really sure what the deal with Sayer is. I actually gravitate to games he's involved in and find out later that he's part of the mix. If anything the guy seems to have some sort of style he is true to. Someone on the Codex wrote that they are going to buy "Pentiment" as Sayer seems to be going through something. And I couldn't agree more. I still haven't played Pillars II but it looks like the whole thing got to him in some way. This is just a comment from an outsider, haven't really fact checked anything about it.

Also does anyone have any idea what they used for inspiration for the Eyeless ones? The RPG Codex Retrospective Review of Pillars of Eternity points to the 'Death Gate' cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, but is that really the only source? They look so familiar to me. I just can't place my finger on it.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Hm, I see. For me the strongest part of Pillars is that all of the elements in the game compliment each other extremely well. I can acknowledge it's faults but I cannot call it soulless in any way. You can't have such a complete package and call it soulless. It's one of the few games where the music fits the art style and gameplay so perfectly. The whole atmosphere is just superb and has the ability to suck you in.

I suppose. I mean, the art and the like in POE is very nice, I don't deny that. For me, shit like graze for 0.2 damage or enemy disabled for 0.3 seconds just kills me inside. It's just so autistic in both presentation and calculation that I can't even.

I'm not that well versed in Pathfinder, but aren't there a lot of combos that trivialize the difficulty as well? I remember spamming Toxic Cloud and Delay Poison, Communal almost every fight. Additionally with PF having an enormous amount of build choices it's difficult to compare them in such terms. Pillars gives you the basics and lets you learn among the way in a much more friendlier way than PF does.

Yeah, noxious cloud and effects that let you run through it are strong, as are other "field effects" like web, grease, etc. if you're running freedom of movement or similar. That's all true, but you don't have to do it that way because of all the options available.

The strength of the PF games is that you really can build craft and screw around for things that work and many of them will if you're not playing on unfair. If you're playing on unfair, you'd best solve what you're going to do or you'll get your shit pushed in.

I'd also say that the trivialization that happens when solo running Pillars is also present when solo running Kingmaker. If not more so just because PF lets you do more absurd stuff. When playing Pillars it felt like I can overcome any challenge simply by keeping my head down and looking for a weak spot. In Kingmaker, when challenges emerged, it felt more like I was simply missing something important and there is no chance of winning the fight without it.

This is a little bit odd because I actually feel the exact opposite.

You can see enemies' weaknesses in Pathfinder too and they're similar since JES kinda-sorta ripped off D&D 3E with his defense types. I find Pathfinder's easier to navigate because Pathfinder is a direct adaptation of D&D whereas Sawyer put in new names for basically old stuff, so I'm not always clear on what's there and have to actually read everything more closely to see what it does.

That being said, because there are fewer options and everything's more "cookie cutter" (in the sense of being more pre-formed), I feel more hamstrung in how to deal with things, so it's basically more like you approach it in the way intended (almost impossible not to because of fewer tools) and then smack it til its dead.

Also, you can just stealth alpha strike everything with arquebuses and arbalests and watch it explode, rinse repeat.

 

[Axel_am]

I suppose. I mean, the art and the like in POE is very nice, I don't deny that. For me, shit like graze for 0.2 damage or enemy disabled for 0.3 seconds just kills me inside. It's just so autistic in both presentation and calculation that I can't even.

It reminds of when the main hero in a book wasn't able to land a solid hit and his opponent hardly notices. Yeah, 0.2dmg/seconds is a bit retarded, but PF was the first game that made me realize I can miss literally everything. Not really a step up in that regard.

That being said, because there are fewer options and everything's more "cookie cutter" (in the sense of being more pre-formed), I feel more hamstrung in how to deal with things, so it's basically more like you approach it in the way intended (almost impossible not to because of fewer tools) and then smack it til its dead.

Yes, in terms of builds PF surpasses Pillars. I can agree that certain fights seem to have a specific way they should be played out, but that's when it comes to playing on Path of the Damned. I'd imagine that playing on a lesser difficulty would allow for more wiggle space. You said it yourself that if you're playing on Unfair you'd get your shit pushed in if you don't come prepared and it's the same with Path of the Damned as well.

In terms of complexity, builds and options Pathfinder allows more. No doubt about that. Still what you've got in Pillars is very enjoyable. What I'm trying to say is that the combat and systems are great even when not being compared.

 

[mediocrepoet]

That being said, because there are fewer options and everything's more "cookie cutter" (in the sense of being more pre-formed), I feel more hamstrung in how to deal with things, so it's basically more like you approach it in the way intended (almost impossible not to because of fewer tools) and then smack it til its dead.

Yes, in terms of builds PF surpasses Pillars. I can agree that certain fights seem to have a specific way they should be played out, but that's when it comes to playing on Path of the Damned. I'd imagine that playing on a lesser difficulty would allow for more wiggle space. You said it yourself that if you're playing on Unfair you'd get your shit pushed in if you don't come prepared and it's the same with Path of the Damned as well.

In terms of complexity, builds and options Pathfinder allows more. No doubt about that. Still what you've got in Pillars is very enjoyable. What I'm trying to say is that the combat and systems are great even when not being compared.

Well, for frame of reference, although I started crapping on POE eventually, I played the hell out of it when it first came out. Anyway, that being said, I have trouble playing POE on less than POTD these days because I find it boring. There's no real "sweet spot" for me with it. It's either POTD or bust and I don't particularly love POTD either.

With PFKM and Wrath, I tend to like Hard just because I think damage multipliers in D&D based games to be bullshit since I like to have some tabletop groundedness in how things work and the multiplier is a bridge too far, even if I can roll with stat bloat, etc.

Anyway, YMMV, I just find our opposite preferences in this regard to be interesting. Have you played Deadfire yet?

 

[Axel_am]

Anyway, YMMV, I just find our opposite preferences in this regard to be interesting. Have you played Deadfire yet?

Yes, same. I think part of the difference comes from me not playing that much D&D and Pathfinder. I had an interest in it, but the environment I grew up in didn't really allow for much more than that. I'd probably fall head over hills for Kingmaker if I had a better idea of what I was doing. With Pillars I was able to keep up, not so much with Kingmaker. I've said it before, not sure if in this thread or not, but I'd love to replay it. Just not sure when as it is a massive game.

So far I've been holding off on Deadfire. I wanted to play Black Geyser first, but I'm still waiting for the keys they are giving out from the Expansion Kickstarter. I ended up going through Divinity:OS2, it's not so bad so far. Of course, these two are distractions before I sink my teeth into the real game of the year - Rogue Trader.

 

[Haplo]

Do get around and play Deadfire some day.
I mean, it is a regression in quite a few aspects. Removal of Health/Endurance dynamic, rest limitations, move to per Encounter abilities. Some iconic abilities have been nerfed.

On the other hand, character building is more involved and fun. Still not quite as complex as in the Pathfinder games - but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Actually might be the character building complexity sweet spot for me.
Itemization is way better - and items synergize with builds in interesting and creative ways. In fact, I believe Deadfire has the best itemization in a computer game ever.
Exploration is nice and rewarding. Although the instances can be tiny (similar to Pathfinder, I guess).
Also the combat is generally more fun, with less trash mobs and better encounter design. Although to be honest, WM was the peak PoE experience.