Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Infinitron]

Nowhere in that video do they contradict my statement. You either need better reading or listening comprehension.

Either way, thanks for helping illustrate my point.

Why, because they don't confirm that PoE2 is their next project? They obviously can't do that yet.

They haven't been burned or discouraged by the concept of crowdfunding, as you two seem to be intimating, that's the point. Harebrained Schemes can tell you all about how crowdfunding doesn't mean going crazy with stretch goals.

 

[Hegel]

PoE2, this time the real spiritual sequel of BG2; please buy our game.

 

[Infinitron]

This just in: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82687-pillars-of-balancing/page-7#entry1743981

He posted more than that:

If we make a sequel, we will likely be hitting higher levels with commensurately more powerful items. PoE was targeting a power growth curve that's in between the original BG (capped out before L10) and IWD (about L15). Holy Avengers and Vorpal Swords are among the best of the best weapons and seem like they're more appropriate for the upper teens (which BG2 goes in to). That's why Pale Justice (from IWD) isn't really as powerful as a HA.

I disagree with your assessment of the soulbound weapons. I think the Greenstone Staff and Grey Sleeper could be better, but I think Nightshroud, St. Ydwen's Redeemer, and Stormcaller (especially) are all pretty strong.

The Ability and Talent system would likely be revised in a sequel. I know there are a bunch of Talents that aren't appealing. I've tried to tune Abilities and Talents up in circumstances where people give specific criticism. E.g. many of the paladin Abilities and ranger Talents got tuned way up in the last patch. Fighter abilities are being tuned up in 2.03 (now in beta).

The approach to balance will be similar. We do continue to improve enemy AI and abilities in new expansion areas (e.g. Crägholdt) and will continue to improve base game AI in future patches.

BTW, I do totally understand that it's frustrating trying to calculate DPS in the game right now. It was an ongoing frustration during development that we couldn't report actual base and modified attack and recovery times. If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Yeah, I only quoted the part that struck me most and gave a link to the rest

 

[Roguey]

I do totally understand that it's frustrating trying to calculate DPS in the game right now.

I called thisssssss.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-78#post-2278656
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-81#post-2279177
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-232#post-2308449
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-82#post-2279394

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Why, because they don't confirm that PoE2 is their next project?

Well, yes. You can read as much as you want into the allusion to their "next project" (which personally, no, I don't think they're talking about PoE2), but they very much avoid discussing PoE2 and crowdfunding in the same sentence, despite being asked questions about both, which is what my initial point was.

I don't think that Obsidian has been burned by crowdfunding, but I think that Josh in particular recognizes that most players hated a lot of what got put into the game because of it (gold NPCs, half-assed stronghold, etc) and wants the freedom to say, "this isn't working, we're cutting this shit" without being beholden to 60k angry backers (and no, I don't think the cutting of the initial crafting system is a good counter-example, that was a completely different situation).

I suspect Obsidian wants to use Kickstarter/Fig as a means of launching untested IPs, since presumably they would be interested in owning multiple IPs; I'm sure if PoE had not performed as well as it did they would be crowdfunding the sequel, but by all indicators it sold pretty well, and, outside of those rumblings about Paradox being greedy greedsters, brought OES a pretty good ROI.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, we'll see. I think that even if they had other ideas at first, after everybody saw how Larian rolled right onto a sequel on Kickstarter, the chances of a PoE2 crowdfunding campaign got a lot higher.

 

[Excidium II]

This just in: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82687-pillars-of-balancing/page-7#entry1743981

Good that they recognize it, PoE is one of those games where you pick the talent that looks least bad (After checking on forums if it isn't bugged). Selection also p. poor, half the options being variants of the same thing.

 

[Sensuki]

I called thisssssss.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-78#post-2278656
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-81#post-2279177
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-232#post-2308449
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-to-the-new-thread.75947/page-82#post-2279394

I actually remember seeing a post from the backer beta where Josh says that if they report DPS then it feels more like an MMO and that was the reason why they didn't. I'm pretty sure it was an Obsidian forum post too.

Good that they recognize it, PoE is one of those games where you pick the talent that looks least bad (After checking on forums if it isn't bugged). Selection also p. poor, half the options being variants of the same thing.

I'm trying to remember who said this (possibly Namutree, also could have been Matt516) but I recall them saying that the F:NV talents were really good but the PE ones are just shit in comparison. I guess if you're making a game you've always wanted to make and a game you don't really want to make then there'll obviously be a difference in quality.

 

[Excidium II]

lol nice excuse. Just like awesome stuff such as Speed: Average

 

[Sensuki]

Well we complained about stuff like this during the backer beta, and not once did they say they couldn't do it. They were silent, or just said stuff like aforementioned. Only now after release and a large number of normal gamers are saying the same thing are they now saying "yeah we wish we coulda done that". If they actually said those things during the BB, people woulda stopped complaining about it. Something doesn't seem right here.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Well we complained about stuff like this during the backer beta, and not once did they say they couldn't do it. They were silent, or just said stuff like aforementioned. Only now after release and a large number of normal gamers are saying the same thing are they now saying "yeah we wish we coulda done that". If they actually said those things during the BB, people woulda stopped complaining about it. Something doesn't seem right here.

Could have been some sort of non-disclosure discipline, as in "if we say now that this can't happen, some percentage of people on the fence might decide not to pre-order". Or maybe they simply weren't sure if they wouldn't figure out a way before the game is released.

 

[Sensuki]

I kinda doubt it because they gave disclosure about other more important topics. If Josh posted something like that on the OE forums during the beta he probably woulda got the equivalent of 100 brofists. I kinda half-believe it - the way they implemented the system is retarded / obtuse and they made it difficult for themselves but I also believe that during the BB they didn't care about it and did actually think that DPS in an IE style game felt too MMO-ish, but obviously now after release due to feedback they're adjusting their opinion accordingly.

 

[Excidium II]

Just a clear effect of having people who suck at games in lead development roles.

 

[Infinitron]

It's worth mentioning the people both on the Obsidian forums and this forum who would have had a fit if anybody at Obsidian had started regularly dropping the acronym "DPS".

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Just a clear effect of having people who suck at games in lead development roles.

Hallucinating that RWTP games actually take skill, are you?

 

[Sensuki]

IHaveHugeNick

Care to explain why you think RTWP games don't require any?

 

[Excidium II]

Regardless, it's not as much a matter of skillz as it is of caring about making informed choices and thus being critical of system and hating needless complexity/obfuscation.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I also believe that during the BB they didn't care about it and did actually think that DPS in an IE style game felt too MMO-ish

Well, it's not like it doesn't but that's what they get for not going with pseudo-rounds.

How ironic is this dual nature the game has - we have to appeal to people who have a nodding acquaintance with the IE games in order to be profitable, but at the same time we can't afford to not *look* grognardy.

 

[Sensuki]

I enjoy both RTWP and TB, but I think players that vastly prefer one the other are sometimes very dismissive of the other medium, possibly because they do not enjoy the types of skills required to be good at the other. In turn-based there is no time critical element, so the player doesn't have to think as quickly as they might in RTWP so people who take a longer amount of time to make a decision probably find solace in that element of TB. Not to say that RTWP requires super fast thinking because the player has the ability to pause the game and take as long as they wish. Players do have to realize when they need to pause the game, unless they use auto-pause.

The major difference is the simultaneous resolution. In (normal) turn based, unit actions are performed one at a time and it's very easy to process and understand everything that is happening in combat. In RTWP, actions occur simultaneously so the player has to process more information at once. The requirement to process more information at a faster pace is uncomfortable for some people. In RTWP you have a constant input stream, so you can make adjustments to your unit actions at any time. This does require the ability to identify when you need to (in a time-critical fashion). On the other hand, RTWP often involves some to a fair bit of automation (the amount of opt-in varies wildly between games) and some players that prefer RTWP may not like having to perform every single action for every single unit every turn in turn-based. They may not like the limited input, or absolution of their actions.

Well, it's not like it doesn't but that's what they get for not going with pseudo-rounds.

How ironic is this dual nature the game has - we have to appeal to people who have a nodding acquaintance with the IE games in order to be profitable, but at the same time we can't afford to not *look* grognardy.

I think they might be relieved to not have to worry about that for the sequel. They way they respond to feedback reminds me a little bit of Nic Pizzolatto and True Detective Season 2. The media and feminists bashed Season 1 for having a disappointing ending where none of the good guys died and apparently there were no 'strong' female characters (even though I would consider Maggie a strong female character). As a result, pizzaman includes a strong female character and made it so that every male lead dies in Season 2, with only the women surviving. People hated that even more.

Kinda reminds me of the PE feedback where OE listen to the blanket response, implement a bandaid 'at-the-surface' fix and people complain about the new problem it caused.

 

[Excidium II]

In turn-based there is no time critical element

Because CRPGs suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. In tabletop think too much and at the very least you get your turn delayed

The major difference is the simultaneous resolution. In (normal) turn based, unit actions are performed one at a time and it's very easy to process and understand everything that is happening in combat. In RTWP, actions occur simultaneously so the player has to process more information at once.

In more honest words, RTWP has a tendency to degenerate into a complete clusterfuck. PoE is specially guilty of this with all the spell fireworks, engagement indicators and enviroment objects blocking the view. Sometimes you just have to stop and check the log to take in what has actually happened in the last 3 seconds.

 

[Sensuki]

Yes but that's largely due to visual design rather than actual mechanics, and you're right that it is unfortunately becoming the rule rather than the exception these days as the good design decisions of the 90s RTS games and the like are completely lost on most game developers

 

[Infinitron]

I think they might be relieved to not have to worry about that for the sequel. They way they respond to feedback reminds me a little bit of Nic Pizzolatto and True Detective Season 2. The media and feminists bashed Season 1 for having a disappointing ending where none of the good guys died and apparently there were no 'strong' female characters (even though I would consider Maggie a strong female character). As a result, pizzaman includes a strong female character and made it so that every male lead dies in Season 2, with only the women surviving. People hated that even more.

Kinda reminds me of the PE feedback where OE listen to the blanket response, implement a bandaid 'at-the-surface' fix and people complain about the new problem it caused.

Seems like you're anticipating/hoping for a "just you wait, PoE 2 will be even worse without us grognards in the audience" narrative.

However, the fact that The White March's combat is already considered an improvement would appear to make that less likely.

 

[Neanderthal]

Might wanna check out Pillars of Balancing thread on Obs forums.

 

[Sensuki]

Seems like you're anticipating/hoping for a "just you wait, PoE 2 will be even worse without us grognards in the audience" narrative.

However, the fact that The White March's combat is already considered an improvement would appear to make that less likely.

I don't think it will be worse. It will most likely be better (perhaps even a lot better) but it will be further away from an Infinity Engine game. I doubt the game will even have per-rest abilities. I have given up on them ever making anything worthy of being an IE style game, so it's probably better that they go in the opposite direction.

They do have a habit of 'fixing' things with shallow solutions though, and have a history of doing it right throughout beta and release.