Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Sensuki]

These are the two areas where RTWP and TB differ

Finite player input vs constant input stream
and
simultaneous resolution vs discrete resolution

In TB you must make the correct decision or live with the consequences. Your choice is absolute, or terminal. The game structure determines when you must make a decisions - one or a set of decisions per unit turn, in a staggered order.

In RTWP generally if you are not actively controlling your units, they may have some form of automation. You must identify if and when you should perform actions rather than the game determining it for you. When you do make decisions, you can change your mind or correct your decisions once you have made them. Your choices are not necessarily absolute, but you do have to identify when to correct one of your actions.

In (standard discrete) TB, unit actions are performed one at a time. This makes it very easy to process information because there is a consistent, structured, set amount of information to process at all times.

In RTWP due to the simultaneous resolution of actions there is more happening at once, meaning more information to process at once at any point of combat than in TB.

The 'skill' of decision making in TB is that you are required to make decisions with less information than you would in RTWP because you are not sure what other units are going to do on their turn.

The 'skill' of decision making in RTWP is that you have to actively identify if and when you need to make decisions considering a larger amount of information at once, whereas in TB the game's structure determines that for you.

All RTWP generally include some automation systems, but some turn-based games have historically also provided this option - such as in Dark Sun: Shattered Lands.

 

[ArchAngel]

Exactly. They're kind of the same in D&D 4E as well ... depends what it is. I found that when we played everyone would open up with their per-encounters in the first couple of rounds, every single encounter. Josh actually mentioned that being one of 4E's problems somewhere yet here it is ten times worse.

The thing is, I'm not sure that they are interested in making them anything else. The devs don't play real-time games AFAIK. They play lots of tabletop and turn-based and non-RPG stuff so if anything they'll probably draw from their experiences rather than go out of their comfort zones.

It is 10 times worse because you have too much combat in PoE before leveling and having other options. In 4e PnP you get new per encounter all the time and exchange those you have for others. Also your XP comes only partly from killing stuff so you never get to use those couple of per encounter powers way too many times.
In PoE new encounter powers come as addition to what you already have instead of replacing it so you just get to spam a bit more same abilities in countless and same encounters.

 

[Cadmus]

eh fuck it, put in a reasonable combat XP and mana pools and forget about IE games, it just might be fun instead of overcomplicated bullshit that results in everything being the same.

Separate per rest and per encounter and per item and whatever the fuck pools? Of course while also adjusting for spell level and efficiency and perceived abuse-potential(because that's what Sawyer would do - HOW DO YOU MEAN PLAYER CAN CAST STUN 2 TIMES IN A ROW???) Are you listening to yourself? It's shit like this that made the game overbalanced and uninteresting.

While the systems aren't good, they are not the problem. The problem is mostly the content, i.e. the game being boring.

 

[Irenaeus II]

The game is great. You people have problems with combat for some reason.

 

[Cadmus]

The game is great. You people have problems with combat for some reason.

I have more of a problem with it after having played AoD and seeing that it's actually possible to make it fun, engaging and thrilling.

 

[Sensuki]

While the systems aren't good, they are not the problem. The problem is mostly the content, i.e. the game being boring.

The system design doesn't really support good combat encounters. It's very difficult with the restrictions on level design that they have to make anything that interesting.

Regarding non-combat content though, absolutely.

 

[Cadmus]

The system design doesn't really support good encounters. It's very difficult with the restrictions on level design that they have to make anything that interesting.

I don't know that it doesn't support good encounters, unless you consider immunities a part of the system but I don't see why should you. Look, I'm not good at the game but it seems to me that shuffling the numbers around (admittedly on practically every aspect of the game from weapons to hitpoints to abilities) could allow for fun stuff and you can always place the enemies a bit better.

 

[Sensuki]

Immunites do not provoke reactions from players unless they do not know that a creature is immune (in this case to a specific affliction). Immunites are more of a strategical concern IMO. This game has a problem with tactical consideration and reactivity in combat. Immunities do not solve this problem.

In some cases they may force you to use a different strategy which is a good thing, but I don't think that will occur very often as there are a few forms of disable. I'd be very surprised if any creatures in the game were immune to more than one affliction as well. If you can't paralyze, knock prone.

 

[Irenaeus II]

This guy hates this game so much it's a comedy.

 

[prodigydancer]

The game is great. You people have problems with combat for some reason.

I don't have any problems with PoE combat. I completed the game and will play it again once TWM2 is out and patched.

But do you really mean to say that encouraging the party to stand still (engagement, penalty to attack recovery on movement) during the entire fight is good design? It was touted as an anti-kiting measure yet every TCS playthrough is 100% kiting at least in early game. It didn't affect the kill order either - casters are still first priority (and since everyone can equip firearms they don't stand a chance).

But it's not just about movement. E.g. damage reduction on armor trivializes early game. Put a plate armor (easy to obtain in Raedric's Hold or even easier if you choose slaughter backer NPCs in Gilded Vale) on your mage and don't worry about those teleporting Shades - they won't hurt you.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

By removing the time critical element pause takes away the need to both make and perform decisions quickly under time pressure but players are still required to identify problems and whether or not they need to address them, but how exactly is 'making correct decision with incomplete information' any different than in turn-based ?

Because in TB your decisions are final. That's the difference. If you position wrong on a first round, that's it, you're fucked. You can't just pause and make corrections like nothing happened.

Time pressure is not a critical element differentiating between what takes skill and what doesn't. Risk taking is. Poker or Chess are skill games even though you can play them without time constrains. That's because your decisions matter. If you can fuck up with your every move, a move that is final and irreversible, not fucking up takes a skill. If you can pause and reverse all your fuckups, that's not a skill. That's easy mode for retards who fantasize about being good at video games.

Soultard detected.

Never even played it.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Don't bother arguing with Sensuki, he's a retard.

Never put on an armor on a mage, isn't there arcane failure penalties?

I have nothing against Engagement. Works fine.

 

[Cadmus]

Don't think there's anything else than that recovery time or what's it called.

 

[Sensuki]

Because in TB your decisions are final. That's the difference. If you position wrong on a first round, that's it, you're fucked. You can't just pause and make corrections like nothing happened.

Time pressure is not a critical element differentiating between what takes skill and what doesn't. Risk taking is. Poker or Chess are skill games even though you can play them without time constrains. That's because your decisions matter. If you can fuck up with your every move, a move that is final and irreversible, not fucking up takes a skill. If you can pause and reverse all your fuckups, that's not a skill. That's easy mode for retards who fantasize about being good at video games.

I take it you didn't read this post: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...n-part-1-released.100006/page-74#post-4196892

Nowhere in there did I mention a time critical element. As stated, pause eliminates most of the time critical element of RTWP, it does not eliminate the need to identify and perform actions of your own accord with a larger volume of information to process at once.

A parallel analogy would be in a game of cricket, the batsman decides his stroke as the bowler is bowling, raises his bat and makes his shot, in real time while he's performing his shot he can adjust his stroke as the ball moves through the air ... in real time he can correct the angle and position of his bat as the ball is coming at him and skillful batsmen will more often than not be able make something out of doing this.

You cannot say that this does not require skill to do.

Obviously that's a real-time example. If Cricket was "RTWP" then the batsman might be able to pause the game while the ball is in the air and then try and see if he can figure out if he needs to make adjustments to his bat. You still need to be able to identify if and when you need to make a change and to be able to execute that change correctly in game time (not real time). RTWP is less about twitch and more about active thinking - being able to identify problems, think of solutions and execute those solutions in game time, with a small bit of real-time pressure in some instances.

If cricket was a turn-based computer game, you would pre-determine all of these things and then click 'make shot' - and thus it would require a different set of skills.

 

[prodigydancer]

Never put on an armor on a mage, isn't there arcane failure penalties?

No. Only a penalty to attack/casting speed and it's not big enough to offset the increase in survivability.

I have nothing against Engagement. Works fine.

LOL, you can't be serious... although... Shevek, is that you?

 

[tdphys]

I just want to give a shout-out to what Sensuki's saying about RTWP vs Turn-Based.

If you measure challenge or skill by complexity of a system, rtwp far outstrips turn-based systems in that case, because it includes continuous time and space and concurrent actions; Turn based systems are simply a discrete reduction of these. When people say *turn-based* is more challenging, I shake my head, and assume they just give up thinking during RTWP because of information overload.

That being said, I can also see where people get the idea, since it's a challenge for designers to exploit all the dimensions of RTWP in a meaningful way, which is why engagement was such a crappy tactic... it shut down a dimension (movement) of RTWP.

I'd also like to see encounters being tossed out of RTWP action, and thus no longer have *encounter* actions. There should be no differentiation between in-combat and out-combat, except perhaps saving due to monster proximity. I think this would go a long ways to helping obsidians "encounter" designers.

I also prefer the thematic per-day / short-rest actions in 5e as opposed to the per encounter/milestone/daily 4e abilities, because the actions become linked thematically to the roleplaying. I don't know how you translate this into a computer game, only that if there is resting, it's gotta mean something to game at large; ( meaningful time based counters on quests or something )

 

[Sensuki]

Yes, so far I believe that is the best solution to the problem, short and full rests. That's what I would do in my own game to address the resting issue.

Re: rtwp v turn-based though

Complexity of a system does not necessarily mean more challenging gameplay or a better system. Often it can mean that it's a worse system. The system design in Pillars is extremely obtuse in quite a few places despite the fact that the goal of many of the systems were supposed to be "easier to understand for new players". Some of these systems (such as the action speed system) fail this goal in a laughably bad fashion and you are *absolutely* right that the Melee Engagement system attempts to shut down a dimension of RTWP gameplay because the very design of the system aims to solve a problem that exists in turn-based, but does not exist in real-time.

I would not say that real-time with pause takes "more" skill than turn-based, as it is technically just an easier version of real-time gameplay. Real-time gameplay can definitely be very challenging especially in a multiplayer environment. However, with turn-based you only have to look at chess. Chess is not RPG combat and RTWP is not real-time multiplayer. Due to the simplicity of the game chess, it's easy to create very good AI for the game, but it's less easy in a computer game that has more complex rules. Both styles of combat (as well as the ones in between) have the potential to be challenging if they take advantage of the strengths of the medium and unfortunately most games do not.

 

[Infinitron]

Hey hey, a PoE update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/1398275

"Finishing up" Part II, huh? Is it going to be ready sooner than expected?

The Small Harvest, The White March - Part II, and Update 2.03

Hello, everyone. Happy Small Harvest! The Pillars team has been hard at work squashing bugs and finishing up The White March - Part II, but that doesn't mean we don't have time for a little fun on the side.

In this update we will talk about the Small Harvest holiday, our brand new short stories, and show off some cool new art from The White March - Part II. We'll also go over the latest update that was released, 2.03, and all of the new stuff that is included.

In future updates, we will release more exclusive info on The White March - Part II.

The team also has a special Halloween treat for Pillars of Eternity fans... Pumpkinhead Mode?

The Small Harvest
In past generations, the Eothasian autumn festival of the Small Harvest was celebrated by most immigrants to the Eastern Reach. Farmers and the villages that relied on them came together to share food and drink from the season's earliest crops and give thanks to the gods for their good fortune.

Children would bring food to distant farms or to elders who were unable to travel on their own and priests of Eothas would line the roads with small candles. In exchange for the food that children brought, the farmers' families would craft small dolls from corn husks or carve a variety of exaggerated faces into small gourds, leaving them outside as gifts. Poor or elderly families would simply spend time with the children and thank them for their charity.

In the years following the Saint's War, the Small Harvest has taken a different tone in the Dyrwood and Readceras. Since the destruction of St. Waidwen, whom many believe was a manifestation of Eothas, most Dyrwoodans have no interest in celebrating the holiday. Those who continue to leave out dolls or carved gourds are generally viewed with suspicion and resentment, often finding their dolls burned and gourds smashed by angry neighbors.

If you want to read more about the Small Harvest and how it is celebrated in Eora, check out our Small Harvest lore page.

Pumpkinhead Mode
For those of you playing Pillars of Eternity on October 30th and 31st you'll get a special surprise if you turn on Big Head mode in your options.

Go ahead. Try it. We'll wait.

The Ratcatcher and New Short Stories



One of Pillars of Eternity's very own Narrative Designers, Carrie Patel, has a brand new short story featuring Sagani and Itumaak.

Without spoiling too much, Sagani runs across a foul murder in a small village and is determined to find out what really happened.

This is the first short story in a new series of stories that we will be releasing over the coming weeks that will feature familiar characters and some new faces. Here are the release dates for the other stories:

• Blood Register by Paul Kirsch - November 3rd
• The Reaping by Eric Fenstermaker - November 10th
• Until He Started Screaming by Carrie Patel - Released Date TBD

To find The Ratcatcher and future stories, head over to our Short Stories page.

The White March - Part II
We still aren't ready to give many details about the second part of The White March, but the team wanted to share some of the cool work that they have been doing with the backers...

... like some new Vithrack concepts (a.k.a. nightmare fuel).


Or some of our new helms that match Pillars of Eternity unique armors.


Or a new cave to explore. (First pass render with no paintover yet)


Stay tuned to future updates so you can see the latest art and design details from The White March - Part II.

Update 2.03
The team has been hard at work continuing to fix bugs and add polish to Pillars of Eternity andThe White March.

Our latest update has many fixes, some cool new changes to the fighter, and we have even added some new key bindings to help support the Steam controller. The update is now live on Steam and will go out on GOG and Origin sometime today or tomorrow.

Here are some of the changes:

Steam Controller

• Pillars of Eternity now has support for the Steam controller. The official controller settings are now the default settings.
• There is a suggested configuration that can be found on the templates that are accessed in Steam's big screen mode.
• New key bindings have been added to support additional actions needed for the Steam controller control schemes.

Fighter Changes

• Base Deflection raised up by 5.
• Knockdown gets a 1.20 damage multiplier (no longer gets bonus Crush damage).
• Disciplined Barrage raised from +10 to +15 Accuracy.
• Armored Grace has been scaled from -15% to -20% Armor Recovery Penalty
• Clear Out base Crush damage increased from 10-16 to 15-22. Scales every 3 levels after 7 by 15%.
• Into the Fray's damage scales every 3 levels after 5 by 15%.

Major Fixes

• Fixed an issue that was causing certain quests to take experience instead of granting it.
• Fixed a problem with chanters not being able to set their chants properly after they have retrained.
• Fixed an issue where retraining was allowing characters to obtain unlimited skill points.
• Using store filters now only shows the appropriate items instead of graying out other items in the store panel.
• Fixed multiple issues with the stronghold and how it interacted with DLC content.
• Fixed an issue that caused the main character to lose his or her background shortly after character creation.

Party/Companion AI

• Can now enable/disable AI on multiple non-pet characters at the same time.
• Fixed issues where AI would not automatically attack enemies.
• Fixed issues where AI would engage enemies that were hidden by fog of war.
• Fixed an issue where AI casters would cast per-rest abilities despite the option being turned off.
• Fixed an issue that caused AI controlled party members to attack other party members that were charmed or confused.
• Reviewed and updated what spells/abilities are cast in AI profiles for multiple classes.

Monsters/Enemies/NPCs

• Multiple enemy types have been given immunities to certain afflictions.
• These enemy types have had their bestiary updated to reflect these immunities.
• Fixed multiple issues regarding NPC reactivity after completing certain quests.
• Fixed multiple bugs regarding Enemies/NPCs detecting stealthed characters and how they react to stealthed characters that they detect.
• Rebalanced requirements for full bestiary unlocks for certain enemies that were not unlocking on easy difficulty.
• Added additional bestiary information for multiple enemy types.

Abilities/Talents

• Minor Grimoire Imprint has had multiple fixes and now works as intended.
• Fixed an issue with the Ranger's Stalker's Link ability adding too much accuracy in some situations.
• Fixed an issue that caused certain buffs and abilities to persist after combat ended.
• St. Ydwen's Redeemer's Revive the Fallen ability now works correctly.
• Fixed an issue that allowed Chanters to choose an extra talent.
• Fixed an issue where the debuff "Bonded Grief" would not be removed after reviving animal companions.

Quests

• Fixed an issue with The Siege of Cragholdt that kept the quest from progressing.
• Fixed an issue with the Grey Sleeper questline that would cause it fail after completing it.
• Fixed multiple issues with the "Sacrificial Bloodlines" quest.
• Fixed an issue that would break game progression after talking to Maerwald.
• Fixed an issue that didn't allow the player to complete the game after killing Thaos.

Achievement

• Fixed an issue with the Herald of the Old Flame achievement being awarded prematurely.
• Fixed an issue that kept players from receiving White March Part 1 achievements.

Items

• Fixed an issue that caused enchants to be removed when a character retrained.
• Fixed an issue that allowed Sentinel's Girdle to be equipped in a ring slot.
• Fixed enchantment issues with Badgradr's Barricade.
• Fixed an issue where the draining modification on weapons would disappear.
• Fixed an issue that caused Sabra Marie to be mis-categorized.

Localization

• Fixed multiple issues with Korean text.

That's it for now and have a great Halloween from the Eternity team!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nowhere in there did I mention a time critical element. As stated, pause eliminates most of the time critical element of RTWP, it does not eliminate the need to identify and perform actions of your own accord with a larger volume of information to process at once.

It eliminates the cost of making mistakes to nearly zero. If you can't make a mistake that can't be effortlessly corrected, that's not a skill based game. For there to be a skill required, there needs to be a possibility of actually playing badly. RWTP makes it pretty much impossible in 95% of situations.

This is precisely why poor encounter design breaks RWTP games completely and why filleritis in these games is so painful. You can't just go anywhere and run into a challenge. The combat system in itself is so retardedly easy, they need to prepare carefully designed gangbags for you to even have to make an effort.

Literally the entire fucking reason of why devs came up with RWTP, is to make the players feel really powerful, give them an impression that what they're doing in the game is somehow extraordinary. Its all bullshit mate. The fact that you're actually falling for it says a lot.

A parallel analogy would be in a game of cricket

Cricket? Are you a Celine Dion fan by any chance?

 

[Sensuki]

It does not eliminate the cost of making mistakes. The player has to first actually realize that they've made a mistake - which is a skill in and of itself, and then they have to apply the correct solution mostly in game time, with a bit of real-time pressure.

In turn-based the rate that you make decisions is set by the turn order. You must make a choice or a set of choices. In RT(WP) the player must identify by themselves if and when they need to make these choices and then execute them with a time-element.

I try to see the merit in all combat systems. Any combat system can be enjoyable if done well. I believe that RTWP was done well in the Infinity Engine games and Baldur's Gate 2 is the most fun form of it (and Planescape Torment highlights how badly a good system can be brought down with bad encounter design). The only other two games that I thought did something cool with it were 7.62mm High Caliber and Aarklash Legacy. Every other RTWP RPG combat system sucks the fucking dick, including Pillars of Eternity.

Whalenought's next game, Copper Dreams is combining the finite player input of turn-based with simultaneous real-time resolution ... that should be interesting to see if they can make it work well because there aren't many games that have tried.

I'm Australian. Australia plays cricket. World Cup 2015 champions actually.

 

[Infinitron]

In case it's not obvious, the patch 2.03 is out. Looks like the Spell Mastery thing didn't make it in. badler says we'll probably have to wait for 3.0 for that: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82...white-march-part-ii-and-update-203/?p=1744294

Also, he refuses to confirm that they're "finishing up".

 

[BlackAdderBG]

1.8 gb

 

[tdphys]

It eliminates the cost of making mistakes to nearly zero. If you can't make a mistake that can't be effortlessly corrected, that's not a skill based game. For there to be a skill required, there needs to be a possibility of actually playing badly. RWTP makes it pretty much impossible in 95% of situations.

This is precisely why poor encounter design breaks RWTP games completely and why filleritis in these games is so painful. You can't just go anywhere and run into a challenge. The combat system in itself is so retardedly easy, they need to prepare carefully designed gangbags for you to even have to make an effort.

Literally the entire fucking reason of why devs came up with RWTP, is to make the players feel really powerful, give them an impression that what they're doing in the game is somehow extraordinary. Its all bullshit mate. The fact that you're actually falling for it says a lot.



Cricket? Are you a Celine Dion fan by any chance?

Let me rephrase what you're saying...

You posit that since in turn based, the actual *turns* require a player to commit to a larger sequence of in-game events by a single action, this causes a need to plan more carefully play more "skillfully", as a greater risk involved in each decision...

Whereas, in RTWP, the player only needs to apply himself reactively because he can effectively change his action at any time, and suffers less for bad mistakes because he can realize and modify them at any moment...


The counter argument is that in RTWP , everyone else is making minute decision details so it's harder to posit what that optimal play is going to be, things become more chaotic. In turn based, you can posit what the AI is going to do because their decision space is also lacking... and then everything degenerates into "calculating moves ahead" ala chess. I guess you can call this more challenging.... but I prefer games like go, where the game is to chaotic to count ahead and takes more of a "fuzzy" reasoning,
plus big turn based games take forever for resolution.

 

[Sensuki]

Good RTWP IMO should ideally promote a lot of active thinking, and if the system design allows there would potentially be multiple ways of solving a problem, rather than just one way.

This is kinda off topic but I'm sure an over zealous mod will cut this convo from the thread or something.

Combat in Aarklash Legacy does a good job at keeping the player on their toes, although a lot of that is keeping track of unit cooldowns so you can use the ability again as soon as the cooldown is finished which I don't think is as fun as using limited resources to solve problems.

 

[prodigydancer]

Looks like the Spell Mastery thing didn't make it in.

With IE Mod you have an option to stop low level spells from becoming per-encounter. Without any Spell Mastery, of course, which makes it even more old school.