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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Drudkh

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I share his view that a dystopian setting can be the backdrop of an interesting plot just as well as a post-apocalyptic setting, but I think it really comes down to the plot, more than the setting. I'm also looking forward to political intrigue in the stronghold quest line.

I'm surprised that he didn't make the argument that there's no possible way to tell an original story in a "high fantasy" setting, you know, considering PoE and all. But yeah, a novel story could be told regardless of setting; setting is ultimately a gimmick from a writing standpoint anyways.
 

AwesomeButton

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I think a fantasy setting, if it's really fantasy, is very limiting an author in what story he can tell. Fantasy is based on folklore, and stories in folklore are inevitably a variant of an initiation story - a hero goes through a set of challenges in order to prove he has matured, and restores order in the community, which has been destroyed with the breaking of a taboo - the starting chapter of PoE falls perfectly within this tradition.

You can definitely tell a personal story in a fantasy setting, but if it's personal, it's no longer an epic - an epic is about a hero advancing the interests of a community. Personal stories, while they can be inserted in a fantasy environment, are out of place there, because in folklore individual problems and desires are not considered of importance.

It's less annoying than having SJW themes in a post-apocalyptic game just for the sake of it - fallout 4 - but still out of place. A story that's applicable to a real fantasy setting should be a cliche, imo. But that's not necessarily a problem. If you can tell a cliched story well, it feel boring, but it will become a cult. Look at Star Wars for example. :)
 

Darth Roxor

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I think a fantasy setting, if it's really fantasy, is very limiting an author in what story he can tell.

Negus plz. Just check out any old French comic books to see what mind-blowing things can be done with fantasy.

Fantasy is based on folklore, and stories in folklore are inevitably a variant of an initiation story - a hero goes through a set of challenges in order to prove he has matured, and restores order in the community, which has been destroyed with the breaking of a taboo

What. Folklore stories are just as, if not even more, often about brigands, evil forces or bad things happening to good people. Folklore is fucking grimdarkmaturegritty. If anything, 'hero initiation' stories are fairly rare because there's usually just a few 'big national heroes' like that and not much else (otherwise these big national heroes wouldn't be important if they were more numerous), and for each of those heroic tales there's at least 10 others about children getting eaten by pixies, men selling their souls to devils, witches luring in unsuspecting youngsters and families being torn apart by tragedy.
 
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I think a fantasy setting, if it's really fantasy, is very limiting an author in what story he can tell.

The problem is not whether the choice of a particular setting is restricting per se, but whether the player expectations regarding these settings are restricting. If the developer is choosing a fantasy setting because players want a familiar setting, you can expect the same old boring and unimaginative game world with elfs, orcs, etc. That is so common that when we talk about fantasy in cRPGs, we are actually talking about this particular implementation of the fantasy setting and its related common places.
 

Sizzle

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Two new answers from Josh's Tumblr:

melnorme asked: Josh: There seems to be a consensus now that Pillars of Eternity's late game was too easy. Why exactly did it turn out that way? Is it some flaw in the way you playtest games? What steps are you taking to ensure this doesn't repeat itself in future games? Would you say that, in general, professional game development companies have a culture that encourages focusing on the early game, and are bad at polishing late game content?

There are a few reasons. The first is that late game content can be approached by much more varied parties than early game content. I.e., on the player side of the equation, there’s a lot more potentially going on (in terms of party composition, level ranges, ability/spell/talent choices, and gear) than in the early and mid-game. It’s harder to predict for, test, and balance content when you have to account for more.

With speed runs and progression tests, testers are always starting at the beginning and moving forward. If the critical path gets broken, they often need to start again with a new build. This alone means that the closer something is to the beginning of the game (and the crit path), the more times it will be tested and (potentially) reported on. This also applies to the system content that is being used – high-level spells, the most powerful items, etc. Comprehensive test plans can catch functional problems with these things, but their relative value/balance can be difficult to qualify without playing it in the context of late game content.

The last reason is that the late game content was the last content we implemented. The positive effects of this can be seen in things like the area art. Dyrford and Copperlane were some of the first maps we built. Twin Elms’ maps were some of the last. The negative effects can be seen in the things that really need repeated playtesting and iteration to polish, like combat balance.

On The White March, I think we’ve done a better job of more consistently testing each area of the expansion. That said, it’s a lot easier to do that when the content is confined to a relatively small area. In the future, ensuring that we both have equal play day time and equal tester time on late-game content should make the difficulty more reliable/consistent. I also think that making Twin Elms smaller, content-wise, would have mitigated the inherent risk of testing/polishing so much content so close to release. It would have felt better from a pacing perspective as well.

That said, it’s almost always more prudent for a developer to err on the side of early game polish than late game polish. A game with a strong start and a weak finish (barring utterly catastrophic endings) will probably be more well-received than a game with a weak start and a strong ending. Most players (and reviewers) won’t suffer through a bad beginning in the hopes that it gets better.

primejunta asked: Have you considered putting status effects on a "ladder," and having grazes and crits downgrade/upgrade them, instead of just increasing/decreasing the duration? This would also make it possible to add buffs and debuffs that push them up or down it as well. So, for example, a crit from a Dank Spore would get upgraded to Charm, but a graze would just cause a Daze or similar. I think it would make for more interesting encounters.

Yes, it’s actually something we’ve talked about a lot. If we make a sequel, I’d like to revisit all of the afflictions and make them stronger – not in the sense of more powerful, but more distinctive, easier to read, and more interesting to deal with. I think the idea of “tiered” effects, e.g. Dazed > Stunned > Paralyzed could play into that well and be easier for players to understand if displayed properly.
 

Sannom

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I'm surprised that he didn't make the argument that there's no possible way to tell an original story in a "high fantasy" setting, you know, considering PoE and all.
Irrelevant, I would say. The question was about Fallout specifically.
 

Roguey

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I also think that making Twin Elms smaller, content-wise, would have mitigated the inherent risk of testing/polishing so much content so close to release. It would have felt better from a pacing perspective as well.

Josh has spoken, a single RPG cannot handle two big cities.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I also think that making Twin Elms smaller, content-wise, would have mitigated the inherent risk of testing/polishing so much content so close to release. It would have felt better from a pacing perspective as well.

Josh has spoken, a single RPG cannot handle two big cities.

It obviously can (and has), but maybe not an RPG where you're creating an entire techbase and system from scratch.
 

Roguey

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It obviously can (and has), but maybe not an RPG where you're creating an entire techbase and system from scratch.

They'd still run into pacing problems. :P

Though a good chunk of that is Fenstermaker's fault for introducing the second city after "The villain did a thing! You have to go stop him immediately!"
 

AwesomeButton

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I think a fantasy setting, if it's really fantasy, is very limiting an author in what story he can tell.

Negus plz. Just check out any old French comic books to see what mind-blowing things can be done with fantasy.

Fantasy is based on folklore, and stories in folklore are inevitably a variant of an initiation story - a hero goes through a set of challenges in order to prove he has matured, and restores order in the community, which has been destroyed with the breaking of a taboo

What. Folklore stories are just as, if not even more, often about brigands, evil forces or bad things happening to good people. Folklore is fucking grimdarkmaturegritty. If anything, 'hero initiation' stories are fairly rare because there's usually just a few 'big national heroes' like that and not much else (otherwise these big national heroes wouldn't be important if they were more numerous), and for each of those heroic tales there's at least 10 others about children getting eaten by pixies, men selling their souls to devils, witches luring in unsuspecting youngsters and families being torn apart by tragedy.
Ofcourse. You can tell an initiation story with brigands, or with fantasy creatures. Structurally it's the same thing. I can offer bibliography if you're interested.
 

Roguey

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Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter. :M
 
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Twin Elms is not a big city.

Obsidian says it is.



Perhaps you all should be role playing instead of roll-playing. :smug:


I know you're Rogueying, but, speaking as someone who is in no way a min-maxer (I lub my LARPing), min-maxing was not the reason PoE's late game was a cake-walk. As far as I can tell there were 3 main reasons that PoE's late-game was a cake-walk:
1) anyone with a desire to see any content outside of the crit path hit the level cap at about 2/3 of the way through the game.
2) OEI was terrified that most people wouldn't finish the game (which, SURPRISE!, they didn't) so they intentionally made the late-game crit path encounters among the easiest in the game
3)Players who were not complete retards (which as I'm sure you'll want to remind me, apparently a large portion of PoE's playerbase are), had by the endgame realized that paralysis>all.
I'm waiting until WMptDeux gets patched before I do a second playthrough, so I'm not sure how adequately the recent introduction of immunities and rekerjiggering of encounters has affected these problems, although I remain quite hopeful.

JES implying min-maxing was the principal cause of complaints about endgame ease is rather worrying though.
 

kwanzabot

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I also think that making Twin Elms smaller, content-wise, would have mitigated the inherent risk of testing/polishing so much content so close to release. It would have felt better from a pacing perspective as well.

Josh has spoken, a single RPG cannot handle two big cities.


do you think you could beat up josh sawyer in a fight?
 

Drudkh

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I'm surprised that he didn't make the argument that there's no possible way to tell an original story in a "high fantasy" setting, you know, considering PoE and all.
Irrelevant, I would say. The question was about Fallout specifically.

Wow, a person who apparently posts quite rarely has logged in just to correct me. I'm terribly sorry for my mistake madam/mister
 

tdphys

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The bad late-game balancing was because they had a linear growth in experience for leveling. This means that those level 5 side-quests give you way too much relative XP for a level 9 character who mows through them. But, you know, math and stuff.
 

AwesomeButton

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Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter. :M

That's right. He never said he would do a new Baldur's Gate, or a new Athkatla. He just stated they are big cities, and then asked if backers want a second big city - in addition to the first "big" city which no one had yet seen.

Look at this nice cat over there. Now, I can sell you a nice cat just like it, it's in this bag. Oh, actually, do you want two cats? I have a second cat in another bag. :M

That's why not a fucking cent is going to come from me to fund an Obsidian Kickstarter again.
 
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Look at this nice cat over there. Now, I can sell you a nice cat just like it, it's in this bag. Oh, actually, do you want two cats? I have a second cat in another bag.
TBQH, that applies to all the kickstartered games. Obsidian though did implement everything they had promised, and they keep improving a lot of things that ended up not-so-great.
 

Sannom

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I know you're Rogueying, but, speaking as someone who is in no way a min-maxer (I lub my LARPing), min-maxing was not the reason PoE's late game was a cake-walk. As far as I can tell there were 3 main reasons that PoE's late-game was a cake-walk:
1) anyone with a desire to see any content outside of the crit path hit the level cap at about 2/3 of the way through the game.
2) OEI was terrified that most people wouldn't finish the game (which, SURPRISE!, they didn't) so they intentionally made the late-game crit path encounters among the easiest in the game.
1) I think they patched that out. Reaching the level cap, even without the expansions, is a slower process than at launch.
2) Speaking of, what are the forced encounters of the critical path once you reach Twin Elms? Besides the mobs in Sun in Shadow and Thaos, I can't think of any.
 

Fairfax

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Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter. :M
Much to Sawyer's dismay...
Also, I'd argue that George Ziets as a stretch goal was very misleading. He said he gave some feedback during pre-production and that was it, he didn't actually work on the game itself.
 

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