Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter.

Much to Sawyer's dismay...
Also, I'd argue that George Ziets as a stretch goal was very misleading. He said he gave some feedback during pre-production and that was it, he didn't actually work on the game itself.

He played a huge role designing a lof of Eora's gods.
On the other hand, Brian Mitsoda did nothing on TTON

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter.

Much to Sawyer's dismay...
Also, I'd argue that George Ziets as a stretch goal was very misleading. He said he gave some feedback during pre-production and that was it, he didn't actually work on the game itself.

He played a huge role designing a lof of Eora's gods.

So it's basically Ziets' fault that there are only progressive Gods except Berath and

Spoiler

the evull one

?

On the other hand, Brian Mitsoda did nothing on TTON

Do you have any insight on this, or is this a conclusion based on the silence from inXile related to this topic?

 

[Semper]

JES implying min-maxing was the principal cause of complaints about endgame ease is rather worrying though.

josh's "no doubt" refers to "Minmaxers in late game have greater delta to the mean", and not to the false assumption that everyone finding the late game easy must be a minmaxer. imo completionists should be the ones complaining about a drastically dropping difficulty curve.

 

[Fairfax]

Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter.

Much to Sawyer's dismay...
Also, I'd argue that George Ziets as a stretch goal was very misleading. He said he gave some feedback during pre-production and that was it, he didn't actually work on the game itself.

He played a huge role designing a lof of Eora's gods.

So it's basically Ziets' fault that there are only progressive Gods except Berath and

Spoiler

the evull one

?

On the other hand, Brian Mitsoda did nothing on TTON

Do you have any insight on this, or is this a conclusion based on the silence from inXile related to this topic?

If Ziets created the gods, that doesn't mean he

Spoiler

decided to make the conservative lawful good the villain

But it's still a possibility. If that's the case, I'm afraid MotB might have been a one hit wonder for him.

We know Sawyer outlined the critical path, though.

 

[Sizzle]

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought that Ziets only came up with the concept of that god (I only remember him talking about Woedica and some random lore tidbits), and that Fenstermaker was the one who was in charge of the entire main story, as well as making her the villain.

And I definitely still have high hopes for Ziets - the outline for his hypothetical Baldur's Gate 3 was excellent.

 

[Fairfax]

Pretty sure Sawyer wrote the first pass, someone posted a quote in this thread once. Fenstermaker probably made his changes and then wrote the actual dialogue, etc.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Baldur's Gate and Athkatla are big cities. Spanning multiple large maps with a ton of interiors, characters and quests, big cities are a lot of fun. Like strongholds, they also take a lot of work to do well. We're going to have one big city in Project Eternity. Would you like two? If you take us on an exciting adventure to $3.5 Million, we will take you on an exciting adventure to another big city.

Obsidian fulfilled their stretch goals to the letter.

Much to Sawyer's dismay...
Also, I'd argue that George Ziets as a stretch goal was very misleading. He said he gave some feedback during pre-production and that was it, he didn't actually work on the game itself.

He played a huge role designing a lof of Eora's gods.
On the other hand, Brian Mitsoda did nothing on TTON

I think he contributed more outside of some lore bits.

I might be misremembering, but I think the storylines that were chosen by the team from the propositions from the different writers were Eric's and George's, and he worked in the very early stages of developing the plot for the game alongside Eric.

We know Sawyer outlined the critical path, though.

Source? I thought it was Eric's.

 

[Infinitron]

You have a problem with an evil female god? What kind of anti-SJWs are you

She fits in with the tradition of "malevolent matriarch" goddesses like Hera, Takhisis, Lolth, etc.

 

[Fairfax]

You have a problem with an evil female god? What kind of anti-SJWs are you

She fits in with the tradition of malevolent goddesses like Hera, Takhisis, Lolth, etc.

Have you finished the game at all? It's not about being a female. She's an evil mass baby murderer genocidal maniac conspiring to destroy the rest of the gods. All this while she's supposed to be the deity that stands for law and justice.
In one of the loredumps it is said that her followers are rich conservative (they actually use the word "conservative") people in the Aedyr Empire who want things to "remain as they are" and "long for a distant past" or something like that.

 

[Bleed the Man]

You have a problem with an evil female god? What kind of anti-SJWs are you

She fits in with the tradition of malevolent goddesses like Hera, Takhisis, Lolth, etc.

Have you finished the game at all? It's not about being a female. She's an evil mass baby murderer genocidal maniac conspiring to destroy the rest of the gods. All this while she's supposed to be the deity that stands for law and justice.
In one of the loredumps it is said that her followers are rich conservative (they actually use the word "conservative") people in the Aedyr Empire who want things to "remain as they are" and "long for a distant past" or something like that.

That's not her entire portfolio though:

"Her domains include law, justice, oaths and promises, (rightful) rulership, hierarchies, memory, and vengeance."

Anyway, searching for the things I said before, although I haven't found the Ziets bits, the update 60 from Chris Avellone confirms that the storyline was Eric's:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64172-update-60-camaraderie/

On Eternity, Eric has a strong theme for the story already. While not the original theme, Josh was accommodating and we all recognized that if another theme came to the forefront naturally through the writing process, it’s fine to alter it to make a stronger design

 

[Infinitron]

This is George Ziets' update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/395376

I think Woedica's portfolio is consistent with an "ends justify the means" approach. Remember, even if you side with her, the plague stops.

 

[Fairfax]

Thaos:

"The heart of this country has skipped a beat. Nothing more. I have done far worse. I plunged the peaceful kingdom of Tolosus into civil war. I slew the monarch of Desontio, whose people never knew hardship under his rule, and replaced him with a cruel despot who brought them to ruin. When plague arrived at the great city of Arborensis, I saw to it that the cure did not. They piled their dead outside the city in heaps that rose above their walls. ... Their histories are droplets of water falling into an endless sea. They are significant unto themselves for a moment, and then they are gone."

All of that as Woedica's agent. Also, ends justify the means =/= law.

Fenstermaker thought he was writing his own interactive epos, but it's a big cliché with a political sermon in the end. It's a shame, because Act 1 and most of Act 2 were pretty good.

 

[Infinitron]

The highest law is that people not figure out what the gods are, since in Woedica's eyes they're the basis of the law.

There's plenty of drama to be had with the contradictions between the god's portfolios and their natures, and how they deal with those contradictions. An Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics kind of thing.

 

[Infinitron]

As for whether it's a political sermon, let's look at the basic facts. This is what happens in the story:

1) Some entity is going to great lengths to hide a secret truth.

2) That entity turns out to be a vengeful conservative force.

3) Whether that truth is actually something worth revealing to the world after you've discovered it is left open.

With the way the conflict is presented, it's undeniable that the game's basic orientation is a liberal one, but I would say it's not blatant in pushing a "the truth will set you free" sermon on you. You can play the moderate conservative, keeping the secret while disavowing the extremes the antagonist party went to preserve it.

 

[Fairfax]

Vengeful is an understatement. They start wars, murder people, spread plagues and commit genocide (including babies). There's no nuance, and the whole reasoning is shallow.

There's plenty of drama to be had with anything, all it takes are two people willing to discuss. I don't find this interesting in any way, however.
I also don't have a problem with the basic orientation being liberal, I didn't expect anything different. It was poorly written, shallow, boring and unoriginal. That I take issue with.

 

[Bleed the Man]

As for whether it's a political sermon, here are the facts. This is what happens in the story:


1) Somebody is hiding a secret truth.

2) The entity who is hiding said secret truth turns out to be a vengeful conservative force.

3) Whether that truth is actually something worth revealing to the world after you've discovered it is left open.

With the way the conflict is presented, it's undeniable that the game's basic orientation is a liberal one, but it's not blatant in pushing a "the truth will set you free" sermon on you. You can play the moderate conservative, keeping the secret while disavowing the extremes went to preserve it.

I never interpreted the theme of the game like that.

When Edér finds out that his brother fought for Raedceras, he can't discover the reasons why he did it, so he has to come up with his own. That's the theme of the game right there. During the conversation with Iovara, you can say this: "Then it is the questions that have always posed more value than their answers" That's what the plot is about. Answers (or lack of answers) leading to new or unresolved questions, and how we deal with those without having the certainty of knowing the truth.

 

[Infinitron]

Fairfax: I don't know man, it's no more poorly written than any evil fantasy supervillain. Maybe you think that by getting a bit political, the game was trying to do more than it actually was and failed, but I don't see it that way. Star Wars' Empire is a political commentary too, but most people are okay with the fact that Tarkin and co are just genocidal fucks.

I never interpreted the theme of the game like that.

When Edér finds out that his brother fought for Raedceras, he can't discover the reasons why he did it, so he has to come up with his own. That's the theme of the game right there. During the conversation with Iovara, you can say this: "Then it is the questions that have always posed more value than their answers" That's what the plot is about. Answers (or lack of answers) leading to new or unresolved questions, and how we deal with those without having the certainty of knowing the truth.

Sure, I didn't say it was the game's theme.

 

[Sizzle]

A new article, courtesy of PC Gamer.

 

[Dorateen]

Any seasoned D&D player would recognize Woedica as lawful evil. There's nothing deep or profound about it.

 

[Fairfax]

Any seasoned D&D player would recognize Woedica as lawful evil. There's nothing deep or profound about it.

She may not be good per se, but she's supposed to uphold justice. That's not lawful evil at all.
Anyway, there's no alignment for Woedica's portfolio because that's just the theory, her "portfolio" (do they actually call it portfolio in game?), while her actions are the very opposite. That was my point.

If you include her actions in the mix, she's pure chaotic evil, because there's no way to spin what she does as lawful.

 

[Dorateen]

She meets the Gygaxian definition of Lawful Evil. She espouses justice and order, for the purpose of securing her own power only. Tyrants have always made their own "justice".

 

[Infinitron]

White March Part 2 Screenshots:

 

[Bleed the Man]

Any seasoned D&D player would recognize Woedica as lawful evil. There's nothing deep or profound about it.

She may not be good per se, but she's supposed to uphold justice. That's not lawful evil at all.
Anyway, there's no alignment for Woedica's portfolio because that's just the theory, her "portfolio" (do they actually call it portfolio in game?), while her actions are the very opposite. That was my point.

If you include her actions in the mix, she's pure chaotic evil, because there's no way to spin what she does as lawful.

Lawful evil:

"A lawful evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits.[8] Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, and undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct."

And as Infinitron said, some gods are walking contradictions. We have Skaen, the god of violent rebellion, helping the goddess of heirarchy, we have Wael as both the god of revelations and obfuscation ... etc

Woedica is both the goddess of justice and vengance, among other things. When her status in the hierarchy is broken, she basically goes on a rampage of rightful vengeance. She's pretty much a tyrant, with similar visions of what justice and laws mean for that kind of people.

 

[Maculo]

You have a problem with an evil female god? What kind of anti-SJWs are you

She fits in with the tradition of malevolent goddesses like Hera, Takhisis, Lolth, etc.

Have you finished the game at all? It's not about being a female. She's an evil mass baby murderer genocidal maniac conspiring to destroy the rest of the gods. All this while she's supposed to be the deity that stands for law and justice.
In one of the loredumps it is said that her followers are rich conservative (they actually use the word "conservative") people in the Aedyr Empire who want things to "remain as they are" and "long for a distant past" or something like that.

I also think Woedica's characterization is contradictory, but I find it fitting. Specifically, the contradiction just reinforces that the gods are full of shit and hypocritical, especially Woedica. Woedica's "justice and oaths" are just whatever keeps her in power. Another example is Magran, she tried to kill off Durance after he ignited the godhammer to cover up her participation with Woedica, if I remember correctly.

Thaos tried to uphold a deity system that was destined to fail and was fraught with the very behavior he tried to stamp out. Thaos' argument boiled down to, "it sucks, but it could be worse." Thaos could have been a better villain

I am not sure I would define the plot as conservative vs. liberal. For example, while Raedric may appear "evil conservative," his death does not make Dyrwood a better place. In fact, if you side with Raedric, he becomes a decent ruler. Another example is Magran, she is the female goddess of revolution and change (Captain Feminism), and yet she is a deceitful, manipulative bitch.

 

[Starwars]

Those screenshots are fucking gorgeous.

Seems like there'll be some more lore and shit based around Ondra. I like that, she was one of the gods I was kinda curious about but she wasn't featured a lot in the main campaign.