Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Delterius]

the gods are just overgrown golems

 

[NJClaw]

You can't say I'm wrong and then proceed to restate exactly what I said. The wheel existed before them, what they did somehow broke it and now it can't go back to how it worked.

By "they", I thought you meant the gods. The gods have nothing to do with it, the machines "broke" it.

Wait, how can the gods have nothing to do with it? The gods built the machines, and those same machines broke the natural wheel. Unless the machines somehow became sentient and spontaneously decided to change the natural order of things, it's all on the gods.

 

[Lacrymas]

Wait, how can the gods have nothing to do with it? The gods built the machines, and those same machines broke the natural wheel. Unless the machines somehow became sentient and spontaneously decided to change the natural order of things, it's all on the gods.

The Engwithans and the Huana built the machines, not the gods.

 

[Ninjerk]

engwigays

You've been around these parts long enough to know this kind of language is unacceptable.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's like despite the game's length and how it's actually decent at bringing in various hooks, it's trying to do too much narratively in too short an amount of time. I think if, for instance, they had a game about the Saint's War with the culmination being the battle at the bridge. Maybe have a follow up focus on the hollowborn and the resolution determining the cause of it and disabling the Engwithean machines and then the trilogy finale show the Leaden Key plot through the ages, blah blah. I expect that probably would've paid off far better.

We have to talked about this before, you can check that out here. It's interesting how every time someone new plays the game for the first time, the same points crop up again and again. To the point that I can create a list describing what people will complain about, I actually have a rudimentary one running right now for Lyric Suite's playthrough and he's going through the list at quite a rapid pace.

It's interesting that someone autistic and condescending enough to search discussions from 6 years ago doesn't look to see whether or not I was participating in it and earlier conversations. Yes, I remember. Conversations about this game go back to prior to release, including the betas which I also played. Also, newsflash, pretty much every discussion on this site has happened before, Captain Bladerunner.

 

[Delterius]

god only knows how long we've discussed poe. all those forgotten reviews. like tears in the rain.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's interesting that someone autistic and condescending enough to search discussions from 6 years ago doesn't look to see whether or not I was participating in it and earlier conversations. Yes, I remember. Conversations about this game go back to prior to release, including the betas which I also played. Also, newsflash, pretty much every discussion on this site has happened before, Captain Bladerunner.

What are you talking about? You don't participate in the conversation I linked to (which I did because I thought you might find it interesting). And how am I being condescending? I genuinely thought you were playing PoE for the first time. I'm sorry?

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's interesting that someone autistic and condescending enough to search discussions from 6 years ago doesn't look to see whether or not I was participating in it and earlier conversations. Yes, I remember. Conversations about this game go back to prior to release, including the betas which I also played. Also, newsflash, pretty much every discussion on this site has happened before, Captain Bladerunner.

What are you talking about? You don't participate in the conversation I linked to (which I did because I thought you might find it interesting). And how am I being condescending? I genuinely thought you were playing PoE for the first time. I'm sorry?

Fair enough, it's entirely possible I misread your "tone" and point.

The thing is, there are many POE threads besides this one and there have been many discussions about the themes, the rules, the x, y, z. Just like what is an RPG, what is the meaning of Bladerunner, and many others, this discussion has happened more than once. There's nothing new under the sun. Either way, my point was mainly, sure but the conversation happened SIX YEARS AGO (and I probably read it back then, but thank you). That it's happening again with perhaps some new viewpoints and other participants isn't really a big deal.

Anyway, you're right that the Engwitheans built the machines (I won't comment on any revelations from Deadfire because I haven't played that yet, but likely will in the near future), moreover, they built them to manipulate souls and to create the Gods in the first place.

I think where things get a bit convoluted is that in a real sense the Gods are subordinated to mortals which is why the Leaden Key is concerned with animancy since soul manipulation could allow mortals to undo the Gods, change them, or otherwise oppose them. But in another way, Thaos was benefiting from having created the Gods since Woedica was assisting him with his agenda. It strikes me that this is less like a traditional divine patron and more like building a wrench or a robot to assist you with whatever you're doing. People build tools to do what they're unable to accomplish on their own.

 

[Delterius]

come on man

sorry man

now kiss

 

[AwesomeButton]

Reducing the struggle of "mortals" against "gods" to "fight the conspiracy", "rebel against The Man" has always felt really weak.

To some degree it's a product of Obsidian trying to emulate parts of not just BG and IWD, but also of PS:T, all in the same "spiritual successor" game. They couldn't have done a cute, self-contained low-level and low-stakes campaign (like they did with White March) because they wanted to have a thought-provoking and pretentious (2deep4u) plot hook raising questions about the meaning of life.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Reducing the struggle of "mortals" against "gods" to "fight the conspiracy", "rebel against The Man" has always felt really weak.

To some degree it's a product of Obsidian trying to emulate parts of not just BG and IWD, but also of PS:T, all in the same "spiritual successor" game. They couldn't have done a cute, self-contained low-level and low-stakes campaign (like they did with White March) because they wanted to have a thought-provoking and pretentious (2deep4u) plot hook raising questions about the meaning of life.

I generally agree, though I'm not sure I'd call WM2 low stakes. WM1 for sure.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I generally agree, though I'm not sure I'd call WM2 low stakes. WM1 for sure.

Yeah, when I kept thinking I thought that too. WM2 is actually spurring the imagination and wonder about what happened between the gods, probably because they don't spell every damn thing about their motivations, along with 90% useless posturing. Drastic divergence from the practices of the base game.

If you look at PoE's plot, structurally it doesn't require "gods" at all. It's just your regular subversion of the established political order. The gods should have been an ambiguous and mysterious presence, unreachable for human understanding and much less for conversation. But that's easier said than achieved.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I generally agree, though I'm not sure I'd call WM2 low stakes. WM1 for sure.

Yeah, when I kept thinking I thought that too. WM2 is actually spurring the imagination and wonder about what happened between the gods, probably because they don't spell every damn thing about their motivations, along with 90% useless posturing. Drastic divergence from the practices of the base game.

If you look at PoE's plot, structurally it doesn't require "gods" at all. It's just your regular subversion of the established political order. The gods should have been an ambiguous and mysterious presence, unreachable for human understanding and much less for conversation. But that's easier said than achieved.

Well not just that (I haven't finished it yet) but the opening vignette thing talks about MC's dreams about the WM being overrun and later the entire region including Caed Nua. It's implied that whatever's happening up there will spell devastation for at least the immediate region.

But yeah, epic tales are difficult to do effectively, much less when you're still trying to establish what your world even is. And after a point, everything becomes so "world/plane shaking" that it's like reading someone's masturbatory fanfic.

Still though, that aside, I think Eora is a better setting than Forgotten Realms. Not that that's a high bar to clear. Both have not-Europe, not-Mexico, etc. but at least Eora has some interesting ideas in the lore whereas FR hasn't struck me as anything more than kitchen sink wank since I was a teenager.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Still though, that aside, I think Eora is a better setting than Forgotten Realms.

Yes, it has a solid foundation laid by Sawyer, grounded in its world's reality, and next to zero woke shit. Probably thanks to the fact it hasn't been "developed" enough yet. I used to like the DA:O setting as well, never minded the thinly veiled borrows from history, and David Gaider was never shy about pointing them out either.

About FR I've found with age that the less I know about the setting the better I can enjoy the games. A typical indicator of a setting where someone really wanted to have that "deep lore" :D

 

[NJClaw]

Wait, how can the gods have nothing to do with it? The gods built the machines, and those same machines broke the natural wheel. Unless the machines somehow became sentient and spontaneously decided to change the natural order of things, it's all on the gods.

The Engwithans and the Huana built the machines, not the gods.

Maybe this is just my headcanon, but doesn't the first game make it clear that the gods basically are Gaynwithans (Ninjerk is this better?) and somewhat consider themselves as such? The gods weren't simply created from nothing, thousands of Engwithans sacrificed their souls and fused them together. The gods are just thousands of souls merged together, and those souls were Engwithans. This is what the wiki has to say about the gods' origin:

Using a massive adra-powered machine at Sun in Shadow, they extracted the essence of thousands of Engwithans assembled in the chamber - men and women, children and the elderly, all they could find - to empower themselves and become the gods of Eora.

In the dialogue with Ondra, she admits that "their [the gods'] memories got the better of them" and prevented them from destroying the Engwithans sooner:

 

[Lacrymas]

The Engwithans are a nation and they continued to exist after the gods were created by them (maybe? It doesn't really matter though). Engwithans built the machines with the Huana, then after some time they sacrificed a bunch of their own people to create the gods. The machines were there before the gods because it was the machines that created them ;d

 

[NJClaw]

The Engwithans are a nation and they continued to exist after the gods were created by them. Engwithans built the machines with the Huana, then after some time they sacrificed a bunch of their own people to create the gods. The machines were there before the gods because it was the machines that created them ;d

Those same Engwithans who built the machines BECAME the gods.

 

[Lacrymas]

You yourself said Ondra suggests they should've destroyed the Engwithans sooner. Sooooo? How is this relevant to the conversation, though? It was the Engwithans and Huana that built the machines with which to create the gods and refine the wheel.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

god only knows how long we've discussed poe. all those forgotten reviews. like tears in the rain.

PoE's law.

 

[Lacrymas]

PoE Enhanced Edition or remake when?

 

[mediocrepoet]

PoE Enhanced Edition or remake when?

As soon as Microsoft gets bored enough to buy Beamdog to do it.

 

[NJClaw]

You yourself said Ondra suggests they should've destroyed the Engwithans sooner. Sooooo?

Ondra suggests they should have gotten rid of the Engwithans civilization sooner, but they didn't because THEIR memories got the best of them. The memories they have because they are made of thousands of Engwithans souls.

How is this relevant to the conversation, though?

This is relevant to the conversation because you said I was wrong and I will sooner post a thousand screenshots and die a thousand deaths than accept that.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't understand the timeline you are presenting here ;d The Engwithans became the gods but the gods are saying they should've gotten rid of the Engwithans sooner? Sooner than what? Before the gods were created?

Also, we know not all Engwithans became part of the gods - Thaos was alive until we killed him. Isn't Iovara Engwithan as well?

 

[NJClaw]

I don't understand the timeline you are presenting here ;d The Engwithans became the gods but the gods are saying they should've gotten rid of the Engwithans sooner? Sooner than what? Before the gods were created?

I'm not "presenting" a timeline, I'm describing the same exact timeline that the game defines and gives us.

The Engwithans built the machines, then thousands of them sacrificed themselves. Their souls merged and formed the gods:

Using a massive adra-powered machine at Sun in Shadow, they extracted the essence of thousands of Engwithans assembled in the chamber - men and women, children and the elderly, all they could find - to empower themselves and become the gods of Eora.

Over two millenia before the present years, Thaos ix Arkannon, chosen to be the steward of the gods, activated the machine beneath present-day Eir Glanfath, instantly sacrificing thousands of Engwithans - men and women, young and old, great and small - to imbue the machine with their souls. As their bodies crumbled to ash, their souls coalesced into a single whole, melting into the adra and merging with it, birthing the gods into Eora.

Those who weren't chosen for the big sacrifice ritual became missionaries and spread the faith around the world:

The surviving Engwithans then sent missionaries to the corners of the world to spread their faith. The missionaries knew the secret of their gods' creation, but never revealed it to anyone.

After a while, Iovara learned the truth behind the gods' creation:

The entire endeavor was almost ruined when Iovara ix Ensios learned the truth, by accident, from careless missionaries discussing the subject openly at one of their temples. Her defiance and determination to expose the gods as fraudulent eventually coalesced into a popular movement that only grew bolder as the Inquisition formed and retaliated against Iovara and her followers, many of whom were former missionaries.

The religious strife caused by the accidental discovery of the secret by Iovara ix Ensios and the resulting brutal suppression of the "apostates" by the Inquisition further reduced Engwithan civilization

To protect the gods' secrets, Ondra decided to wipe out all traces of the Engwithan civilization:

To protect their secret, Ondra pulled Ionni Brathr from orbit onto Eora. The smallest of three moons would impact Eora and cause enough damage to the Reach and Deadfire to wipe out all traces of Engwithan civilization, but would not cause a global extinction event.

In WM2, she reveals she knows she should have done it sooner, but her memories and sympathies (for her very own civilization) prevented her from doing that:

I don't understand how you can only place that "sooner" before the gods were created, when there's a clear point in time where the world learns the truth about them. Maybe she means "sooner" as in "before that point". I quoted parts of the wiki because I don't have direct screenshots, but this is all pretty faithful to what I read in my last playthrough.

 

[Lacrymas]

Soooo, exactly what I am saying? The Engwithan civilization survived after the creation of the gods. Why are we having this conversation in the first place? ;d The part you were wrong about is that the gods created the machines that control the wheel, but that's not the case. It was the Engwithans and the Huana before the creation of the gods.