Wadjet Eye Primordia - A Point and Click Adventure - Now Available

[MRY]

(A) That's not how things work. The concept works at a certain size, and doesn't at a larger size.
(B) I don't want to cannibalize FG time.

 

[MRY]

Fun piece of fan art.

Also, $1.99 on GOG.

 

[MRY]

Any Germans interested in testing the German translation of Primordia? If so, shoot me an email at mark at wormwoodstudios dot com.

 

[MRY]

For an extra 50 cents you can now get Primordia with DRM via Steam! $2.50 here: http://store.steampowered.com/app/227000/

 

[MRY]

> suggest I need a Crispin to stop my preening
> get Oasis stabbing me in the back
> learn I am not as good as Horatio at creating golems

 

[Darth Roxor]

Crispy

 

[Crispy]

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

MRY Primordia is now white supremacy symbol and will soon be added to ADL database. Hope you're happy, you shitlord!

 

[MRY]

I thought the Facebook HQ thing was pretty clever, the rest of the lingo I couldn't really follow, though I assume "bugmen" is some anti-Jewish slur?

Since I didn't think it would be productive to engage directly with the guy, I instead posted a long series of tweets about the international influences of the game and why I am so glad we have fans from the world over -- the "preening" tweets, the first of which oasis789 posted above. To be honest, my hope would be that Primordia's values would exert a moderating influence on someone like that, so I would rather not cause him to reject the game by doing some authorial denunciation.

I've never been quite sure what to make of Primordia's ability to excite people at both political extremes -- for instance, its foremost tester and biggest evangelist was a queer neo-Stalinist, and she used to go around trolling white supremacists who used Primordia avatars. She was certainly a brilliant person (one of the most brilliant I've encountered, and extraordinarily generous with her free labor on Primordia and "Fallen"), but I can't imagine how I could have made Primordia more explicitly anti-Stalinist short of calling MetroMind "Stalin-Mind" -- in the commentary, for instance, I mention Stalin by name as an example of the kind of monster who was an extreme version of the "kinder, gentler" MetroMind. At the same time, I don't understand how white supremacists could go for a game made by Yohalem, published by Gilbert, with lead characters voiced by Logan Cunningham, Abe Goldfarb, and Sarah Elmaleh, in which the happy ending is the diverse outcasts from around the world coming together at the UNNIIC. Likewise, I don't understand why secularists think the game is Creationist (a criticism it often gets) or why occasionally religious people think it is anti-religion (since I certainly intended it to be a pro-religious game, though I myself love religion from afar).

Really, the only people who seem to have gotten the right bead on its politics were the GameJournPros who blackballed it for being insufficiently progressive. :D I thought the game had pretty transparently traditional Anglo-American values -- pro-individualism, pro-charity, pro-law, pro-faith, skeptical of centralization and fairly welcoming of outsiders. Maybe games just generally have such far-left politics that Primordia seems far right by comparison. Still doesn't explain its popularity on the far left, though.

Ultimately, the game is what it is -- "<SystemUser> is welcome to select his own interpretation."

 

[Alienman]

Should have gone with "Stalin-mind"

 

[Maxie]

For me, the most powerful moment of Primordia is opening up Factor's hatch only to see a giant city of lights somewhere in the distance, out of which a single robot flies (and flies an uncomfortably long while at that) to meet you and interpret on behalf of Factor, currently dormant. The immense size of the undertaking that is Factor and the immense scope of its ambitions just hit me in the face and made me want to run away fast - this moment alone rendered any and all comparison with real-life political beliefs and programs an inane mental exercise. Fuck me if that's not sci-fi done right.

 

[almondblight]

I've never been quite sure what to make of Primordia's ability to excite people at both political extremes -- for instance, its foremost tester and biggest evangelist was a queer neo-Stalinist, and she used to go around trolling white supremacists who used Primordia avatars. She was certainly a brilliant person (one of the most brilliant I've encountered, and extraordinarily generous with her free labor on Primordia and "Fallen"), but I can't imagine how I could have made Primordia more explicitly anti-Stalinist short of calling MetroMind "Stalin-Mind" -- in the commentary, for instance, I mention Stalin by name as an example of the kind of monster who was an extreme version of the "kinder, gentler" MetroMind.

It's funny - MetroMind came off as the most likeable members of the 4 council members you meet. The other 3 were obsessed with their purpose to the extent that they didn't seem to care at all about what happened to the city and its denizens, with the added bonus of Factor being a monster who wanted to eat the world. You don't meet Citadel, but if I remember right he was just kind of thrown in by the council when they decided to create a new religion.

Likewise, I don't understand why secularists think the game is Creationist (a criticism it often gets)

I could see people getting that vibe from the robot who talks about incrementalism and believing that humans don't exist. Especially since it's given by a robot who lost his faith. Though the closest corollary to the cosmology in Primordia is probably ancient aliens.

 

[MRY]

Yes, MetroMind is meant to be relatively sympathetic -- I think villains are more effective when that's the case. The other Council members were definitely much less practical.

 

[Sceptic]

Maybe games just generally have such far-left politics that Primordia seems far right by comparison. Still doesn't explain its popularity on the far left, though.

Anything that isn't on one of the extremes is viewed as being there by people on the opposite extreme. Doesn't mind which extreme they're on.

 

[Beastro]

for instance, its foremost tester and biggest evangelist was a queer neo-Stalinist, and she used to go around trolling white supremacists who used Primordia avatars. She was certainly a brilliant person (one of the most brilliant I've encountered, and extraordinarily generous with her free labor on Primordia and "Fallen"), but I can't imagine how I could have made Primordia more explicitly anti-Stalinist short of calling MetroMind "Stalin-Mind"

:D

Likewise, I don't understand why secularists think the game is Creationist

Well it is, technically. It is about bloody robots built by man in a world shaped by their creators after all.

or why occasionally religious people think it is anti-religion (since I certainly intended it to be a pro-religious game, though I myself love religion from afar).

Because the robot religion in it turns out to not be literal true, maybe? I could see that, but in the end it still is true in a larger, meta sense with their followers finding meaning and making the world a better place despite the odds set against them.

Even if it was anti-religious, it completely lacks any scenery chewing bitterness and anger or mockery over it that is the main reason why religious people get their backs up over criticism of their faith (at least Christians in my experience, being one myself).

The only people I could see reacting that way would be the likes of that Stalinist for the above reasons you stated.

Still doesn't explain its popularity on the far left, though.

Maybe it's appealing to what's left of their decent nature inside of them that they can entertain privately playing a single player game, whether they know it or not.

Yes, MetroMind is meant to be relatively sympathetic -- I think villains are more effective when that's the case. The other Council members were definitely much less practical.

She wasn't to me, at all. Her smug, sure tone about everything defeated that and her admission near the end just confirmed my dislike as it showed her true nature.

I'm a fairly pragmatic person, but that doesn't mean I throw away ideals at the drop of a hat. MetroMind seemed to do out of a desire for control and power despite what her claimed intentions were while Factor was just an amoral ass. Steeple and the other one the two fembots served, while conflicted over what was going on seemed more balanced in trying to figure out a solution (been awhile since I thought about the game so forgot a lot of it).

To me the big thing the crisis showed was the ambitious persons desire to seize a crisis to benefit themselves while claiming to be benevolent.

 

[Darth Roxor]

(since I certainly intended it to be a pro-religious game)

Allahu akbar

This explains Crispin's "I'm a floating bomb" moment.

 

[Jack Dandy]

GameJournPros who blackballed it for being insufficiently progressive

Motherfuck. That happened?

 

[MRY]

GameJournPros who blackballed it for being insufficiently progressive

Motherfuck. That happened?

Probably not. Mosty it's a running joke I have about the game.

I dunno though. I've always been a bit curious why its reviews are so much worse than other WEG titles, or why some reviewers went so out of the way in their hostility. And there are oddities like RPS saying it was philosophically shallow compared to the average adventure game. The disconnect between the reviews that, say, Shardlight got and Primordia's is odd. Primordia has the highest user ratings by far of any WEG title and the worst pro reviews other than A Golden Wake and maybe Da New Guys.

 

[MRY]

Well it is, technically. It is about bloody robots built by man in a world shaped by their creators after all.

Sure. I guess what I mean is, more, I thought the game took a pretty middle of the road view of these things, and that one wouldn't think, "Because MRY posited a world of robots built by humans, he is trying to persuade me that this world of humans was built by God."

Because the robot religion in it turns out to not be literal true, maybe? I could see that, but in the end it still is true in a larger, meta sense with their followers finding meaning and making the world a better place despite the odds set against them.

Even if it was anti-religious, it completely lacks any scenery chewing bitterness and anger or mockery over it that is the main reason why religious people get their backs up over criticism of their faith (at least Christians in my experience, being one myself).

Guess so. In some ways Horatio's belief is ridiculous ("a perfect machine," etc.), but I thought the game pretty clearly took the stance that whatever its substance, it was a good thing for him.

She wasn't to me, at all. Her smug, sure tone about everything defeated that and her admission near the end just confirmed my dislike as it showed her true nature.

Well, that was intended too -- she's meant to be more sympathetic than, say, your Bioshock Infinite villain or (conversely) Ayn Rand villain, but ultimately she's cannibalizing your friends, so it's hard to be too sympathetic.

Still, for whatever authorial intent matters, my view is that she, too, was the product of her creators, who told her that she was the Way of the Future and the key to Progress when she was built (to run the trains in lieu of conductors), and she believed it. Her goal was to achieve a tech singularity (in herself) to save the world (which of course would also mean that not only "l'etat, c'est moi" but "le monde, c'est moi." The thing is, if you say, "You need to break eggs to make an omelet," then break a bunch of eggs and don't make an omelet, you've pretty much left yourself without a moral tree to hide behind.

 

[MRY]

I just think Shardlight is the most Primordia-like game in the WEG catalogue, that's all. It's no coincidence that it's the only title where WEG mentions Primordia in its marketing materials! (Heck, when going to double check that fact, I noticed the most recent Shardlight user review on Steam: "Almost the same 'feel' as Primordia, and equally as brilliant in ambience and story.")

I haven't actually played the game, though, so maybe I'm wrong. (It just seemed like the visual style, the use of classical and political allegory, etc. seemed similar enough to warrant comparison.)

Anyway, you have two similar games, with discrepant player reactions in terms of sales and user ratings, and then you look at their respective Respectable Game Site reviews, and those are pretty discrepant as well (RPS being a good example). Well, one should take his lumps, and be happy when they happen to be lumps of sugar, so I'm much more pleased with the favorable fan response to Primordia than the unfavorable critical response. I just am irked enough by the latter to need the occasional joke at its expense.

 

[Beastro]

Still, for whatever authorial intent matters, my view is that she, too, was the product of her creators, who told her that she was the Way of the Future and the key to Progress when she was built (to run the trains in lieu of conductors), and she believed it.

There's always a fine line to walk there or else we all become blameless for what we do and begin to revel in the dark freedom from our consciousness'' that comes with it.

In a world of robots there's more room for that, but even then its shown that they are capable of going beyond their nature, or at least finding a way to work around it while remaining true to it with Horus' actions being the best example of that, especially in comparison to MetroMinds around the same time.

Her goal was to achieve a tech singularity (in herself) to save the world (which of course would also mean that not only "l'etat, c'est moi" but "le monde, c'est moi." The thing is, if you say, "You need to break eggs to make an omelet," then break a bunch of eggs and don't make an omelet, you've pretty much left yourself without a moral tree to hide behind.

It's easy to say that so long as you're not an egg being broken. IMO, in the end, MetroMind's actions always centered around her being in charge over everyone else with a sinister cruelty lurking behind her justifications.

 

[MRY]

Well, the main arc of Primordia is the question whether Horatio can overcome his programming to become a more moral being, and the answer (unless you pick the kill 'em all ending) is yes.

Former jobs put me in the position of justifying very severe criminal punishments. I am pretty much convinced that (1) most monsters are made that way by monstrous things happening to them; (2) many people have monstrous things happen to them but do not become monsters; (3) monsters aren't less awful because they were made monstrous by others -- one hopes there will be some salvation for them in one way or another, and you cannot help but weep for the past incarnation of that person who suffered so awfully, but you can't ignore their present wrongdoing or the whole world will go to hell. "You can't help it, it's the way you are" is always a terrible message to give someone, even if it is sometimes true. "It's not his fault so we can't punish him" is a terrible thing to tell yourself.

 

[lightbane]

What about people who are already born damaged? Psychos and the like?

Nevertheless, once again I must say that this game was quite awesome, although I didn't agree with the villain's words, I found it cool you can decide to rebel and die honorably against her enforcer, or join together and create a composite mind of sorts, along with many other endings.

 

[V_K]

monsters aren't less awful because they were made monstrous by others -- one hopes there will be some salvation for them in one way or another, and you cannot help but weep for the past incarnation of that person who suffered so awfully, but you can't ignore their present wrongdoing or the whole world will go to hell. "You can't help it, it's the way you are" is always a terrible message to give someone, even if it is sometimes true. "It's not his fault so we can't punish him" is a terrible thing to tell yourself.

This makes sense ethically. Pragmatically, however, if a "monster" can be rehabilitated into a productive member of society, it's always more cost-efficient (and better for everyone involved) to do so than to just lock them away. The only thing more cost-efficient is to focus on preventing the creation of monsters (in which prisons play no small part).
Nordic countries have some of the most lax penitentiary systems, yet some of the lowest crime rates - and these two things aren't unconnected.

 

[MRY]

lightbane I'm sure it happens, but it is probably actually fairly hard to disentangle because a child born with, say, schizophrenia is vastly more likely to be abused. There were certainly a few people who came through with mostly okay childhoods, but they were typically not connected with what I considered "monstrous" crimes. In the "monstrous crime" category, almost every single one was horrifically abused, addicted to drugs and alcohol at a young age, suffering from some kind of low-level mental disorder, etc.

V_K Ah, I'm not really equipped to have a policy debate on the Codex, but I think that this largely confuses cause and effect. For instance, "People who visit chiropractors are actually far more likely to have chronic back pain than people who don't" isn't necessarily a case against chiropractors because suffering from chronic back pain creates a greater likelihood of seeking chiropractors out in the first place. The Nordic countries have so many confounding factors (e.g., until recently, very homogeneous, relatively prosperous populations). Also, isn't Sweden the rape capital of the developed world? :/ Like the Nordic countries, African countries have very low incarceration rates, but they have very high crime rates. China has very high incarceration rate -- and very bad penal conditions -- but its murder rate is basically the same as Sweden's.

At the end of the day, my view is that rehabilitation, where possible, is massively better than punishment. But I am skeptical how often it is possible, at least under the conditions in which criminals come into the U.S. justice system.