Wadjet Eye Primordia - A Point and Click Adventure - Now Available

[Joff1981]

Primordia is only a few weeks away to code-freeze, and is on-track to launch on December 5th as scheduled.

 

[Jaesun]

Just let me know when there is a pre-order on GOG. I'll do that ASAP when it is.

 

[udm]

MRY are you guys planning physical copies? Wadjeteye usually does good on the boxed versions (though my Gemini Rue DVD box was cracked in the shipping process so I had to buy a new case )

 

[trustno1code]

MRY are you guys planning physical copies? Wadjeteye usually does good on the boxed versions (though my Gemini Rue DVD box was cracked in the shipping process so I had to buy a new case )

I asked Dave about that, here's the positive response:

Yep, we are doing one! We're trying to determine where they will be made, though. We really underestimated the shipping costs for the Resonance box and we don't want to raise the prices for this one, so we're looking into European manufacturers (since 90% of the customers come from Europe). So they will be anywhere from $25 - $35 dollars. We'll let you know!

 

[MRY]

Definitely planning on physical copies. Trying to figure out whether they'll be boxes or DVD cases, with production and shipping costs being a determinative factor.

Given that Resonance was released on Steam, I'm hopeful Primordia will be, too. It is probably largely driven by how well reviewed the game is. Despite them both being retro P&C adventure games, Primordia and Resonance are really different. In some ways, I could see Primordia not reviewing as well, in which case, I suppose Steam might be more reluctant. Still, I think it's likely we'll get a Steam release, hopefully at launch.

 

[kaizoku]

since 90% of the customers come from Europe

PE demographics



I think most people prefer card boxes to DVD boxes.
But I wouldn't oppose a DVD box at all if it had a ~ 20-40 pages booklet with a short story, a recipe, some commented artwork, and that type of stuff. Well, as much as I love boxes, I think I would prefer this one.


BTW, Wadget Eyes made possible for GOG buyers to order for the physical boxed copy at a discount, when they released Resonance.
Will this be possible for Primordia?
I would like that.

 

[Jaesun]

Dave Gilbert ‏@WadjetEyeGames
Submitting a new Primordia beta build for the testers. Now I close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears.

 

[MRY]

Everyone likes card boxes more, but they're much more expensive to produce and ship. Still, we're trying to make them happen.

In terms of "feelies" in the box, not sure what we'll have. We do have a story, a poem, and concept artwork on the website, though that's not the same.

We will definitely have a GOG release. I'm not sure whether there will be a discount for buying a physical copy. That's Dave's business.

 

[JudasIscariot]

I would assume so. They seem to work well with WadjetEye. Unlike STEAM.

How's this? I've not kept up with a lot of adventure news lately but sounds like something I should know.

Seriously, If I hear any New WadjetEye game is now on pre-sale at GOG I don't even read the description. I just click pre-order immediately (like with Resonance).

Updated my Jaesun.txt

 

[made]

MRY

How is it possible that you're able to consistently deliver decent adventure games that look and feel oldschool in this day and age when common knowledge dictates that the genre is dead and the only way to revive it are multi-million dollar Kickstarer projects?

 

[Jaesun]

Because they actually have a passion for making games? Instead of "Cinematic Emotionally Engaging" QTE interactive movies. The cancer that has killed gaming.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I wish Dave Gilbert did a sequel to The Shivah.

I'd pay money for a Roxor LP of such a game. His Shivah LP is one of the best LPs on the Codex.

I'd pay money for a Roxor LP of The Shivah sequel as well, if you know what I'm saying

 

[JudasIscariot]

Because they actually have a passion for making games? Instead of "Cinematic Emotionally Engaging" QTE interactive movies. The cancer that has killed gaming.

I don't think gaming has died. In fact, I think it's on the way towards some serious incline in almost every genre. Here's why:

Adventure gaming, long thought to be dead like disco, is making an unexpected comeback as evidenced by Wadjet Eye, Daedalic, the various adventure game related kickcstarter projects that are getting funding. Some people may say "But it's not <insert company that did adventure games back in the 90s>! " but I like the adventure games that are coming out because they manage to stand out on their own, deliver an awesome story without delving into banal sentimentality. In short, I like games like Resonance or Gemini Rue because they are Resonance or Gemini Rue.

Same thing goes for RPGs: You have so many RPGs coming out these days that you can pick and choose based on what subtype of RPG you are looking for. Want a blobber where you can spend some time just rolling the stats for each of your characters? Sword and Sorcery has that. Want an isometric party based dungeon-crawler? Go to Vogel. Sci-fi isometric where you get to create party members on the fly? Vogel again. And let's not forget the Wastelands, the Dead States, Project Eternity, Age of Decadence (is it Thursday yet?!?!. Seriously, dudes, I have a serious problem deciding what to play based on the fact that there are too many games now :D

Jaseun, don't take this as trolling just more of an observation from my perspective :D

Also, I am of the opinion that gaming in its previous (or is it current form?) sort of had to die in order for it to be born again but clean of the bullshit and other crap that has accumulated on it over time.

 

[Grunker]

Want an isometric party based dungeon-crawler? Go to Vogel.

No thanks. As much as I am enjoying Avernum right now, it is far, far from any of the games of the past. There are so many RPGs that are better. I am hoping the Kickstarters herald a return to form as much as you, but you are certainly exaggerating how much there is to choose from at the moment.

 

[JudasIscariot]

Want an isometric party based dungeon-crawler? Go to Vogel.

No thanks. As much as I am enjoying Avernum right now, it is far, far from any of the games of the past. There are so many RPGs that are better it's not even funny. I am hoping the Kickstarters herald a return to form as much as you, but you are certainly exaggerating how much there is to choose from at the moment.

Maybe you're right in that I may have exaggerated but surely the future is not all THAT bleak? Right?

 

[Grunker]

I am hoping.

We've barely had anything to hope for the last 10 years. The future isn't bleak, it's a bright beacon of shiny sunshine compared to what we've been used to. I'm very optimistic about the coming years. But you said now, and now, I'm playing Avernum because I lack something better to play

 

[MRY]

MRYHow is it possible that you're able to consistently deliver decent adventure games that look and feel oldschool in this day and age when common knowledge dictates that the genre is dead and the only way to revive it are multi-million dollar Kickstarer projects?

This is a very flattering post, but it builds in a bunch of misconceptions. Wormwood Studios (developer of Primordia) haven't delivered any other adventure games. Wadjet Eye Games (publisher of Primordia) has published several excellent adventures, and developed one adventure, in the last couple years. It's not entirely clear to me whether that's because there was a surprising glut of excellent, independently developed adventure games for WEG to publish (GRUE, Resonance, and Primordia were all several years into development, and I'm not sure there is a backlog of other great Adventure Game Studios adventures in the pipeline). So the answer may well be that it's a coincidence of timing.

In addition, while I agree that the adventures WEG has published are fantastic (especially Primordia!), they're all significantly shorter than classic adventure games. I would say they range from a half to a third as long. If you consider that, for example, Resonance took five years to make and takes about five hours to play, it would have been impossible for XII studios to develop a full-length adventure game with the same look and feel. The same is true of Primordia. It will be about two and a half years when we release it, and frankly spending that much time on an unpaid project was viable for me only because I have other employment, for the coder because he was a student, and for the artist because he has a very low cost of living. I don't think we could have gone even another year in development without something breaking down.

Finally, all of the WEG games leverage Adventure Game Studios. This significantly reduces development costs, but significantly constrains the marketability of the games because they can't run on Apple or mobile platforms and can have performance issues even on PCs. No major developer would use finicky, narrow-cast software like AGS, so they have to bear additional development costs (i.e., making an adventure game engine in Unity) that we don't.

I also think that you're mistaken that the genre is dead. I think it's less active than during the golden age when Sierra and Lucas Arts were each releasing multiple games a year (not to mention tons of other developers), but it's more active than any time since, I think. The Codex is kindly running an interview with the Wormwood team next week where I talk about this, but my basic view is that the genre has fragmented into a bunch of different areas: Telltales's licensed games; European adventure games; AGS indie games; and Kickstarter projects. Each of these has its drawbacks compared to the golden age games, but they're all pretty active right now.

Also, I don't think there's anyone who makes adventure games in any of these categories, except maybe some of the licensed Telltale things, who doesn't have a passion for games. In fact, outside of management types, I think everyone in the industry is in it because they love games. But maybe I'm unduly rosy eyed.

The real difference between indie developers like us at Wormwood (at the moment) and someone working at DoubleFine is that I can survive working for 2.5 years on a project for which I might only see $10,000, if that! (Hopefully we'll make lots more, of course.) Obviously, no one living outside the third world can survive on $4k a year, so if you're going to support yourself developing games, making niche low-res point & clicks is going to be a tough proposition.

 

[made]

Thanks for the insightful post.

I also think that you're mistaken that the genre is dead.

The post was ironic, but you couldn't have known. My stance is actually that adventures are thriving and have been for quite some time without the help of KS. Wadjet, AGDI, Telltale, Daedlic (or whoever makes all those German adventures), and a whole bunch of indie devs have all found a niche and business model that works for them, regardless of the quality of the games (I personally dislike Daedlic adventures apart from the gorgeous artwork but hey. OTOH I loved Machinarium.) Hence why I don't see KS as the long-awaited messiah. All it does is shift all the risk from the devs/publishers to the consumers, and it's pathetic to see certain people make it out to be the only way they get to work on classic adventures again while it is and has been evidently quite possible without KS - all it takes is the aforementioned passion. And perhaps a little bit more business sense than going to EA and demanding 10 mil for a project because you're an adventure guru only to sulk when they slam the door in your face.

 

[MRY]

Heh, sorry I missed the irony.

I sort of agree with your discomfort about Kickstarter, mostly because I think it's a weird kind of rich-get-richer arrangement when established developers are able to crowd-source millions of dollars on a site intended (I thought) to provide funding to people who otherwise couldn't get it at all. And I agree that it's weird that basically less wealthy people are funding the dreams of wealthy people.

But I think your specific criticism might be slightly off. Presumably the economics of making European adventure games are different; either they are cheaper to make or European consumers favor European games, or both, such that US developers can't make adventure games on the same terms as European ones. (I note, incidentally, essentially all of the previews of Primordia are positive, except for the European ones, which are mixed to negative. I'm not sure if that's because they have more alternatives or if it's an issue that adventure games just don't relocalize that direction any better than they do coming from Europe.) Prior to KS, the only adventure games being developed in the US were the Telltale licensed projects (which relied very heavily on cross-over fans drawn in by the IP's popularity or nostalgic adventure game fans), AGS games (which are shorter and somewhat lower quality than the golden age games), and the frankly terrible (in my opinion) adventure-on-rails games like Dreamfall or Heavy Rain (which, actually, weren't even developed in the US, were they?). KS has in theory opened up a new possibility, which is AAA adventure games produced in the US for a US audience.

 

[toro]

Because they actually have a passion for making games? Instead of "Cinematic Emotionally Engaging" QTE interactive movies. The cancer that has killed gaming.

I don't think gaming has died. In fact, I think it's on the way towards some serious incline in almost every genre. Here's why:

Adventure gaming, long thought to be dead like disco, is making an unexpected comeback as evidenced by Wadjet Eye, Daedalic, the various adventure game related kickcstarter projects that are getting funding. Some people may say "But it's not <insert company that did adventure games back in the 90s>! " but I like the adventure games that are coming out because they manage to stand out on their own, deliver an awesome story without delving into banal sentimentality. In short, I like games like Resonance or Gemini Rue because they are Resonance or Gemini Rue.

Same thing goes for RPGs: You have so many RPGs coming out these days that you can pick and choose based on what subtype of RPG you are looking for. Want a blobber where you can spend some time just rolling the stats for each of your characters? Sword and Sorcery has that. Want an isometric party based dungeon-crawler? Go to Vogel. Sci-fi isometric where you get to create party members on the fly? Vogel again. And let's not forget the Wastelands, the Dead States, Project Eternity, Age of Decadence (is it Thursday yet?!?!. Seriously, dudes, I have a serious problem deciding what to play based on the fact that there are too many games now :D

Jaseun, don't take this as trolling just more of an observation from my perspective :D

Also, I am of the opinion that gaming in its previous (or is it current form?) sort of had to die in order for it to be born again but clean of the bullshit and other crap that has accumulated on it over time.

I want a new Gothic. And I can *beeeepppp* myself and everything else, cause I don't see one in production right now.

 

[kaizoku]

I don't think gaming has died. In fact, I think it's on the way towards some serious incline in almost every genre. Here's why:

Adventure gaming, long thought to be dead like disco, is making an unexpected comeback as evidenced by Wadjet Eye, Daedalic, the various adventure game related kickcstarter projects that are getting funding. Some people may say "But it's not <insert company that did adventure games back in the 90s>! " but I like the adventure games that are coming out because they manage to stand out on their own, deliver an awesome story without delving into banal sentimentality. In short, I like games like Resonance or Gemini Rue because they are Resonance or Gemini Rue.

Same thing goes for RPGs: You have so many RPGs coming out these days that you can pick and choose based on what subtype of RPG you are looking for. Want a blobber where you can spend some time just rolling the stats for each of your characters? Sword and Sorcery has that. Want an isometric party based dungeon-crawler? Go to Vogel. Sci-fi isometric where you get to create party members on the fly? Vogel again. And let's not forget the Wastelands, the Dead States, Project Eternity, Age of Decadence (is it Thursday yet?!?!. Seriously, dudes, I have a serious problem deciding what to play based on the fact that there are too many games now :D

Jaseun, don't take this as trolling just more of an observation from my perspective :D

Also, I am of the opinion that gaming in its previous (or is it current form?) sort of had to die in order for it to be born again but clean of the bullshit and other crap that has accumulated on it over time.

IMO the genre never really died.
Instead, what happened was a sharp decrease in game quality when Lucas and Sierra killed their adventure game departments.
Together with increasing costs due to larger screen resolutions and voice overs, and a possibly decreasing target segment (due to the increasing number of gaming offers), the decline increased.
On the other hand, it was also difficult for other studios, that had no street credit, to put out games and have them marketed.

As for these last years and indie games... there is still a lot of AAA dependence.
(using RPGs as an example) Why does Skyrim and Bioware threads get such an insane amount of posts? When other more interesting games don't get the attention they deserve?
People tend to discard games both based on their looks, but also on the overall production levels of the game. Also because of the initial indie stigma.
I am guilty too as I used to do this. But not anymore.

Things have changed.
Internet changed the distribution, which made possible for indies to invest more time and put out games that are deeper and show more polish.
And now KS is changing the funding. Even if it's currently at its jump-at-the-bandwagon phase, it is and will be a great tool available to indies.


fake edit:
good point by MRY on the game lenght. There is only so much that one can endure without seeing some ROI.

Hence why I don't see KS as the long-awaited messiah. All it does is shift all the risk from the devs/publishers to the consumers, and it's pathetic to see certain people make it out to be the only way they get to work on classic adventures again while it is and has been evidently quite possible without KS - all it takes is the aforementioned passion. And perhaps a little bit more business sense than going to EA and demanding 10 mil for a project because you're an adventure guru only to sulk when they slam the door in your face.

talk is cheap
Do you live alone? Do you have a job? Do you have a second part-time job?
See how much free time you now have.
talk is cheap

Also, you're forgetting the mental drain that it represents dragging down a project for years and years.
No matter how much you love it, you want to put a closure in it.

 

[Manny]

MRV:
Primordia looks really great, but I have one question regarding the cursor: how is it going to work? I ask this because one of the problems I see -from a player point of view, of course- in recent adventures is how they handle the interaction between the player and the game. For example, I really dislike how the cursor "tells" you things in recent games, like Gray Matter and the Perry Rodhan game. I think some of the puzzles of those games could be better if they had another kind of cursor. My main concern is that the game "plays himself" most of the time.

I personally dislike Daedlic adventures apart from the gorgeous artwork

What is your opinion regarding the first Edna game? I also don't like the other Daedelic games I've played (The Whispered World and A New Beginning), but I think Edna and Harvey is one of the recent games that are almost on par with the classics. Have you played the other Daedelic new games? I have read that the main designer of Deponia and the new Harvey game is Jan Müller-Michaelis, so maybe they are also good.

 

[MRY]

@ Manny -- The cursor displays a tooltip / caption whenever it is over a hotspot. That allows us to have hotspot that blend more elegantly into the background, rather than making them stand out. Primordia isn't a hidden object game, after all! Once the cursor is over a hotspot, left click interacts, right click examines. This is the interface method used in Beneath A Steel Sky.

There was a time, when adventure games first when to mouse interface, that I felt like more interaction options were better. But I don't really think that's the case. As long as you design your hotspots reasonably, the player will only have one intent when interacting with them. Obviously, you have a decent variety of tools in the inventory that you can bring to bear on the hotspots as well. As much as is reasonably possible for one overworked person, I've tried to have custom responses to all the things you could -- so, for example, using the plasma torch on the protagonist's holy book returns as a response that it would be sacrilege, whereas using the plasma torch on the astronomical manuals aboard the ship returns a response, from the sidekick, that things are dystopian enough without bookburning.

Some games call for a large "verb set" for the naked cursor. But even then, I think I would probably have left click automatically operate as the least-intrusive interaction possible. So if you're a thief character, and you left click on a shopkeeper, the game would parse that as "talk." I'd have some special icon on the toolbar "thief skills" or something that you could use on the shopkeeper if you wanted to pick his pockets. And if you wanted to threaten him, you'd use the dirk in your inventory.

The reason for this is that, as much as possible, interface shouldn't stand between the player and the game; instead, it should pull the play into the game. Having a verb coin, or having the bottom third of your screen occupied by verbs for sentence construction, or requiring the player to go to the toolbar on top for every mundane interaction -- all that just slows the player down. It's not about immersion in the sense of "feeling like you're the protagonist"; it's about that kind of trance state that you fall into in a really good FPS, RTS, or side-scroller. (Super Mario World is the best example of this, IMHO. You utterly forget that you're controlling anything with your hands as you play; or, I do, anyway.)

@ kaizoku -- "[W]hat happened was a sharp decrease in game quality when Lucas and Sierra killed their adventure game departments."

I more or less agree with you, but I'm not sure this is exactly right. The high water mark of adventure games, in my opinion, significantly predated the closure of those departments. There was a streak of awfulness that includes Monkey Island 4, King's Quest VII (and VIII!), Gabriel Knight 3, and Quest For Glory V, at a minimum. The best adventure games -- excluding Grim Fandango, which itself is flawed but so stylistically awesome as to be forgivable for all its failings -- seem to have come even before the awful streak. My instinct is that QFGIV, Monkey Island 3, Space Quest V, etc., were all not the best games in the series, even though they were the last good ones.

I think what happened was that as it became possible to make adventure games more film-like (either through FMV or 3D or voice over or whatever), the free-spiritedness of the earlier games, from both a player standpoint and a developer standpoint, was diminished.

 

[Jaesun]

I think what happened was that as it became possible to make adventure games more film-like (either through FMV or 3D or voice over or whatever), the free-spiritedness of the earlier games, from both a player standpoint and a developer standpoint, was diminished.

EXACTLY.

 

[made]

Presumably the economics of making European adventure games are different; either they are cheaper to make or European consumers favor European games, or both, such that US developers can't make adventure games on the same terms as European ones.

Europe is not a hegemonic entity. Labor is cheap in the frozen steppes of the East, but Western Europe is probably on the same level as the US, if not more expensive. The difference is perhaps that in some countries, Germany being the prime example, there is still a market for full-price retail PC games, be they adventures, RPGs, or sims. I guess that allows publishers like Daedlic or Deep Silver to do what they do, but I've no idea how much they manage to sell outside of Germany. However, none of that should matter if you're indie and go digital-only. Between Steam, GOG, and probably a lot more these days, it's easier than ever to self-publish a niche title no matter who or where you are - or so I imagine. You probably know more about that than me.

If you look at metacritic, the Daedlic adventures actually score lower than Wadjet games. There's the expectedly high scores from Gamestar and the like (who routinely rate German games 85+ regardless of quality), but other European reviews are far less favorable. Machinarium otoh (made by a Czech team afaik) scored high all around. I can't really see a clear pattern there.

By the way, what are your thoughts on this engine http://www.visionaire-studio.net ? It's the one they used in Whispered World etc. and the upcoming STASIS. It's practically free for games priced €15 or less. Would that be a viable alternative to AGS?

Also, many classic adventures were actually very short. BASS, Dreamweb, Full Throttle, Prisoner of Ice... The original Larry had, what, five locations? You can finish that game in 10 mins if you know what you're doing. It was actually the norm unless there was some artificial padding. I don't think that's a disadvantage. Many gamers these days, and I include myself in that demographic, actually prefer short titles that they can finish over the weekend and move on, as long as they are priced accordingly. And I'm convinced even the big KS titles will fall in that category.

I'm not even opposed to KS as such - I think it's great as a platform for indie teams that are struggling with a project after having poured a lot of time and effort into it to get the necessary funds to see it finished (Grim Dawn is a good example here). I just shake my head whenever some has-been jumps on the bandwagon to rattle the nostalgia chain and sets out to save a genre that doesn't need saving.