Return To Monkey Island - MI2 sequel from Ron Gilbert

[Alex]

Upcoming Simon the Sorcerer game:

Well, it would be kinda ironic if they were to make female characters more modest because of feminism/islamism/whateverism; given both Simon 1 and 2 (and God only knows what else, I think there might be a pinball game in there somewhere) had humour based on the lack of modesty of some female characters... Still, despite going against the heart of the series, by itself this could even be an incline. The overall art style here is at least nice, if not really looking anything like the first two games as well... But that Simon just looks awful...

 

[Rincewind]

The overall art style here is at least nice, if not really looking anything like the first two games as well... But that Simon just looks awful...

It's a marked improvement over nuMI, but still nothing much to write home about.

Meanwhile, a few guys in some dingy basement made this. I'm not saying that's how nuMI should look, but honestly which teasers/screenshots look like they had a solid budget behind them?

Now *this* looks really interesting and the art is nice, I'm sure I'll get it at some point.

 

[Boleskine]

https://venturebeat.com/2022/05/19/...rossman-are-ready-to-return-to-monkey-island/

GamesBeat: What are some of the starkest differences between working on a new Monkey Island today compared to the development of the original?

Gilbert: For me one of the big things is looking out for a modern and more casual audience while making fans happy. It’s a tightrope to walk. There is also the element of nostalgia. Monkey Island has had 35 years to build it into something that it wasn’t back then. Back then it was just a game we made. It’s more than that now. We were careful to honor that but also not be afraid to move it forward. We were also young and naive. Everything was bright and shiny.

Literally made for casuals.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Pretty pathetic that he thinks this new thing is "more than just a game they made", when in fact in all likelihood it's going to be much less.

"Move it forward", "looking out for a modern audience" are all explicit signs of absolute, abject decline, so much so that I'm expecting something as bad as those awful, awful nu-KQ games that got made a few years ago by a bunch of clueless hipsters who stumbled into the franchise.

 

[Viata]

nu-KQ games that got made a few years ago by a bunch of clueless hipsters who stumbled into the franchise

We even got an emote to remind us of that:

 

[MRY]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything they say in the interview (in fact, their explanation of the in-game hint system could be taken verbatim from interviews I've given about why we included such systems in Primordia and Strangeland), but I think the overall tenor of this is that those hoping for elaborate puzzles are going to be disappointed.

"Beating your head against obscure puzzles was acceptable. It’s not anymore."

"I can’t think of anything I regret making too easy. The consequences are much less severe for that. It doesn’t bring the game to a grinding halt, at worst it’s just not very interesting, and you forget about that as soon as you start thinking about the next puzzle after it."

"Story comes first and then puzzles are layered in."

 

[JarlFrank]

Here are some example screenshots from other adventure games, most of them made by small studios at a likely much lower budget than Return to Monkey Island.

For this list of examples I am only choosing 2D adventure games (not 3D) that are not pixel art, for a better comparison to Return to Monkey Island, which is also not 3D and not pixel art.

Jerry Wanker, a more straight up lewd knockoff of Leisure Suit Larry:

Daedalic's Deponia games:

Those new Leisure Suit Larry games:

Nelly Cootalot, a pirate adventure inspired explicitly by Monkey Island:

The Dark Eye: Memoria, a fantasy adventure by Daedalic:

3 Minutes to Midnight, a humorous adventure game currently in development:

Foolish Mortals, another upcoming adventure game made by a small studio, arriving 2023:

Gibbous - A Cthulhu Adventure looks very inspired by Curse of Monkey Island in its artstyle:

Memoranda:

All of these are very different styles, and different types of adventures (humorous, serious, and anything in-between). But they have one thing in common:
They look better than Return to Monkey Island, yet their budget was lower.

 

[Alex]

Here are some example screenshots from other adventure games, most of them made by small studios at a likely much lower budget than Return to Monkey Island.

For this list of examples I am only choosing 2D adventure games (not 3D) that are not pixel art,(snip...)

I still think problem with the new monkey island's art was just that it was bad, not that it isn't pixelated. But you do provide a good argument for the other possibility.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)"Story comes first and then puzzles are layered in."

"Story comes first" is a view I particularly hate. People who follow it through sometimes are not even making games anymore...

But there is a very specific way where that is right, and that is that the puzzles of adventure games are not abstract puzzles, but continuations of the narrative elements (exploration, story, theme, whatever) of the game. Even zork has it, though any notion of story in that game is more like a second thought; and games that don't do that, like Puzzle Agent, aren't really adventure games (though they may be pretty good games, like in the puzzle agent case).

 

[MRY]

Yes, as noted, I am not sure that the statement is necessarily wrong. As I wrote in a dev diary for Strangeland:

In an ideal adventure game, puzzles and stories are not separate segments at all; they are marbled or melded—the puzzles reveal both the setting and the protagonist to the player. Of each puzzle, you can say: “Because such-and-such is true of this setting, this puzzle is here.” And of each solution, you can say: “Because the protagonist has this quality, he can overcome the puzzle this way.” Unavailable solutions can also reveal the protagonist, the way that negative space can reveal a subject’s form: “Because the protagonist has this quality (or lacks that quality), he cannot overcome the puzzle that way.”

But it is possible to say a series of true statements that nevertheless are ominous. Everything they said in that interview feels familiar to me from things I've said in interviews -- but I try always to circle back and then add, "But ultimately, it is not an adventure game without puzzles, and puzzles should be challenging." Their interview doesn't seem to circle back in that way, so I gather that the puzzles are going to be downplayed relative to Thimbleweed Park.

 

[Darkozric]

but I think the overall tenor of this is that those hoping for elaborate puzzles are going to be disappointed

The dude who can't create elaborate puzzles is telling us that those hoping for elaborate puzzles are going to be disappointed, as this is something that we didn't already know.
Thanks for the clarification Mr Obvious.

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

All of these are very different styles, and different types of adventures (humorous, serious, and anything in-between). But they have one thing in common:
They look better than Return to Monkey Island, yet their budget was lower.

Either Ron is a has-been that is out to make a quick buck by peddling nostalgia and therefore couldn't even see a turd even if it were served to him on a silver platter, or Rex simply got the job because he has a very close and possibly even intimate relationship with Ron.

It is either one or the other.

There is of course also the possibility that this specific art direction was forced upon him by Disney or something, but I don't think that is very likely.

 

[JarlFrank]

There is of course also the possibility that this specific art direction was forced upon him by Disney or something, but I don't think that is very likely.

He would not be so vigorous in his defense of the style if that were the case.

 

[HeroMarine]

Here are some example screenshots from other adventure games, most of them made by small studios at a likely much lower budget than Return to Monkey Island.

For this list of examples I am only choosing 2D adventure games (not 3D) that are not pixel art, for a better comparison to Return to Monkey Island, which is also not 3D and not pixel art.

Every single one of them looks infinitely better than what Gilbert and Gross-man are bringing.

 

[jfrisby]

"I can’t think of anything I regret making too easy."

Why do these classic game designers keep coming up with these persuasive quips that make their genre appeal to no one.. It's Monkey Island and theyre still doing a marketing wave apologizing for puzzles..

 

[Alex]

"I can’t think of anything I regret making too easy."

Why do these classic game designers keep coming up with these persuasive quips that make their genre appeal to no one.. It's Monkey Island and theyre still doing a marketing wave apologizing for puzzles..

I think they figure that if they make the puzzles easy enough this time, it will become as popular as whatever is selling the most nowadays.

 

[JarlFrank]

Thing is, Thimbleweed Park was popular because it was a traditional adventure game. The players liked it. Thimbleweed Park has 2745 reviews on Steam at this moment, with 93% being positive.

But the critics thought it was too retro and not innovative enough.

Ron, being part of the demographic who still believe the word of game journalists, decided to make a game that appeals to those "people" rather than actual gamers.

 

[Alienman]

Difference is in niche audience.

 

[JarlFrank]

The players liked it. Thimbleweed Park has 2745 reviews on Steam at this moment, with 93% being positive.

so now majority is always right? i guess all these reviews giving 10/10 to oblivion were right. After all majority rules. And oblivion sold like hotcakes, what a wonderfull game!
codexers went from majority is never right to eat shit, millions of flies can't be wrong in just a decade or so???
Good to know.

btw "Shower With Your Dad Simulator" has 95% positive reviews, it must be even better than TP

My quote of Steam review numbers and scores was a response to Alex's post above me, who opined that Ron probably thinks that if he makes the puzzles easier he will reach a broader audience.
Thimbleweed Park is a classic adventure game with classic puzzles, and its Steam review stats show it's pretty successful for a title of this genre.

If the discussion is about audience reception and devs talking about dumbing down in order to reach a wider audience, then yes, citing the majority opinion of the same developer's previous game, which was not dumbed down, is very much relevant.

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

Apropos Thimbleweed Park. I did enjoy it and it does have its moments, but it definitely does not have the charm of Monkey Island or Grim Fandango.

I played it once and then forgot about it.

 

[Boleskine]

https://grumpygamer.com/dev_diary

Return to Monkey Island Dev Diary
May 25, 2022

Jul 17, 2020
First official day is Monday but I've started setting up Slack and other web services.

Jul 18, 2020
Ordered Linux machine. Talked to Dave about maybe controlling Elaine for a section of the game.

Starting to worry about finding great people. It's going to be hard because we have to keep the project a secret.

Played MI1 again. Taking a lot of notes about what made MI MI. After TWP and fast walk and other almost invisible improvements, it's painful to play a 35 year-old adventure game.

I was surprised at how many objects didn't have custom default responses. A large number of objects just said "That doesn't seem to work."

Jul 19, 2020
Played MI again.

Jul 20, 2020
Working with the lawyer to get contractor contracts done that conform to Disney's requirements. Taking longer than I thought.

Hope to get Dave's contract done by tomorrow.

Jul 23, 2020
First "real" design meeting with dave. Laying down the backbone puzzles for Act 1.

Jul 24, 2020
Started the Puzzle Dependency Chart for Act 1.

Jul 27, 2020
Jenn started

Jul 28, 2020
Making good progress on design. I know we'll slow down when we have to do all the details. Looking forward to getting a concept artist. Things come alive for me when concepts start to come in.

Nov 17, 2020
Starting up diary again... maybe I'll be able to keep it going this time.

Thinking about the ui. I hate the current status-quo.

Nov 18, 2020
Meeting with Disney.

May 25, 2022
Yep, this dev diary didn't last long.

Ron Gilbert 4h ago
We decided against a playable Elaine because the story went in a direction where that didn't make sense anymore. It would be fun to do a MI with Elaine is the playable character and Guybrush is the sidekick, but that will have to wait for another game.

Ron Gilbert 4h ago
MI3 is a good game. The only thing I didn't like about it was Guybrush and Elaine never should have gotten married. But what is done is done.

 

[Viata]

it's painful to play a 35 year-old adventure game.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

it's painful to play a 35 year-old adventure game.

Uh-huh, 35 year-old. Like King's Quest 2 and not Monkey Island? Back when graphic adventure games were Sierra and the three people who were not Sierra?
I went to check the negative reviews on Steam of the classic Lucasarts graphic adventures, and you know something, outside of The Last Crusade all the ones I saw were complaining about the quality of the remaster. Almost like people who enjoy adventure games don't find playing the classics painful. Probably because adventure games are still desperately trying to get out of the shadow of those games. Calling the period of 1990-93, which I've frequently seen cited as the best period, painful, is not a wise move if you haven't shown any indication that you're going to be better than those games. Especially since one is banking on the nostalgia of titles from that period.
That's not to say one couldn't improve upon those formulas, or even make something that is a genuine classic...just that I don't see it coming here.

 

[JarlFrank]

it's painful to play a 35 year-old adventure game.

What utter bullshit.

Lucas Arts overtook Sierra in popularity (quite massively here in Europe at least) because of how incredibly user-friendly their games were. Starting from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, there were no permanent death scenes in Lucas Arts games (you could always retry in the same screen if you died), nor any ways to get stuck by missing a pixel hunt 12 screens ago. The verb interface is incredibly intuitive and easy to use even for someone who never played a game before. It's way more intuitive than anything that came after it - Monkey Island 1 and 2 with their clickable verbs are much easier to understand than Curse of MI with its action coin that pops up when you hold down your mouse button. It just doesn't get any more intuitive than the classic Lucas Arts verb interface. Monkey Island 2 improved upon Monkey Island 1 a little by cutting out excess verbs that were rarely used.

What the absolute FUCK is painful about playing the original MI games? You point at a location and left click to make Guybrush walk there. You hover your mouse cursor over an interactable object, and the name of the object appears below the game window. You don't even have to guess which objects on the screen can be interacted with and which can't - the game tells you about it! Then you just click on one of the verbs, click on the object, and the action is performed. It doesn't get any more intuitive than that. Give, Pick Up, Use, Open, Look At, Push, Close, Talk To, Pull. Simple verbs whose effects on the objects you try to use them on is readily apparent. Dialog is just as easy and intuitive: you get a list of things you can say to an NPC, and then you just click on the sentence you want to say.

Interface wise, the classic Monkey Islands are among the most intuitive and easy to play games ever made. Not even exaggerating, you could hand these games to someone who never held a mouse before, spend 2 minutes explaining how it works, and he'll get the hang of it very quickly.

Anyone who claims the original MIs are painful to play is a disingenuous faggot.

 

[Tramboi]

Fast travel with double-click is a real progress, though, UI-wise.