Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Coma White]

The whole point of the ending -- any of the endings -- is that you can't trust any Kindred, and that nothing you do can change anything. Like Gehenna, the future is already written by unseen powers. Empowering or rewarding the player through the ending would be missing the point entirely. No matter how much of a predator the player seems to have become; he will always be prey.

 

[Jazz_]

The whole point of the ending -- any of the endings -- is that you can't trust any Kindred, and that nothing you do can change anything. Like Gehenna, the future is already written by unseen powers. Empowering or rewarding the player through the ending would be missing the point entirely. No matter how much of a predator the player seems to have become; he will always be prey.

You can give the finger to everybody and walk away in one ending tho.

 

[Coma White]

You can give the finger to everybody and walk away in one ending tho.

Ah, so true! But is this a victory, or merely a tacit admission of the player's own powerlessness? I suppose it depends on who you ask: a Cammy, or an Anarch.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Should be an option in every RPG, really

 

[Zombra]

You can give the finger to everybody and walk away in one ending tho.

aka the "Wargames" ending.

 

[Athelas]

The whole point of the ending -- any of the endings -- is that you can't trust any Kindred

Sure you can - Ming-Xiao is not a Kindred. But Strauss for example is true to his word when it comes to dealing with LaCroix and doing the prudent thing of hiding the sarcophagus away rather than opening it for his own gain.

The game's portrayal of vampires is too diverse and ambiguous to boil down to them all being extremely power-hungry to a fault. As silly as Caine's appearance in the game is, even he still has high hopes for his children to 'grow up'.

Empowering or rewarding the player through the ending would be missing the point entirely.

A story about a character being powerless or a pawn in the grand scheme of things doesn't really work when that character is such an empty cipher like the PC in Bloodlines. A much better video game example of this sort of ending would be the Vault Dweller getting banished from his vault at the end of Fallout 1 or the Nameless One going to hell. Bloodlines doesn'ty pull it off very well IMO.

 

[Coma White]

Sure you can - Ming-Xiao is not a Kindred. But Strauss for example is true to his word when it comes to dealing with LaCroix and doing the prudent thing of hiding the sarcophagus away rather than opening it for his own gain.

The game's portrayal of vampires is too diverse and ambiguous to boil down to them all being extremely power-hungry to a fault. As silly as Caine's appearance in the game is, even he still has high hopes for his children to 'grow up'.

I don't think I ever said all vampires were "extremely power-hungry to a fault", did I? No -- I think you're reading into what I said, or perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.

A story about a character being a pawn in the grand scheme of things doesn't really work when that character is such an empty cipher like the PC in Bloodlines.

I hope you're going to dazzle us by elaborating on this.

 

[Athelas]

I don't think I ever said all vampires were "extremely power-hungry to a fault", did I? No -- I think you're reading into what I said, or perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.

Well, how else was I supposed to read 'can't trust any Kindred' in the context of fighting over the sarcophagus and the power it holds?

Anyway, the plot of Bloodlines is a trial by fire, for the player character, but also vampires as a whole, by tempting them with the sarcophagus to judge the character of the various high-profile clans (and their leader), and they do react differently. 'You can't trust any Kindred' is too hasty a conclusion.

I hope you're going to dazzle us by elaborating on this.

The PC in Bloodlines has nothing to lose, unlike say the Vault Dweller, who is cut off from the home and community where he grew up in. He also doesn't receive any characterization to speak of, like how he feels about his new existence vs his human life. It's not that Bloodlines' protagonist is bad compared to other RPG protagonists (I'll take him any day over any Bioware protagonist), but he isn't very suited for the story in Bloodlines.

 

[Coma White]

Well, how else was I supposed to read 'can't trust any Kindred' in the context of fighting over the sarcophagus and the power it holds?

What?

Anyway, the plot of Bloodlines is a trial by fire, for the player character, but also vampires as a whole, by tempting them with the sarcophagus to judge the character of the various high-profile clans (and their leader), and they do react differently. 'You can't trust any Kindred' is too hasty a conclusion.

What does the story being a "trial by fire" (the story actually isn't a trial by fire, per say, but whatever) have to do with "not being able to trust Kindred" being a hasty conclusion?

The PC in Bloodlines has nothing to lose, unlike say the Vault Dweller, who is cut off from the home and community where he grew up in. He also doesn't receive any characterization to speak of, like how he feels about his new existence vs his human life. It's not that Bloodlines' protagonist is bad compared to other RPG protagonists (I'll take him any day over any Bioware protagonist), but he isn't very suited for the story in Bloodlines.

How does him not having anything to lose (I guess you don't count survival as being a sufficient motivating factor) have anything to do with him being manipulated?

but he isn't very suited for the story in Bloodlines.

An opinion (and a vapid one at that) which you are trying to pass off as a subjective statement. Try harder.

 

[Zombra]

[The PC] isn't very suited for the story in Bloodlines.

Hmm. I think the PC has a strong role because he has nothing to lose and no real point of view. Despite doing all the work and making an important decision at the end, he doesn't really participate in the story so much as catalyze it. The game would be very different if he started out biased towards a particular group or outcome. For the better? Mmmmmaybe, but I think it's strong as it is and something would be lost otherwise.

 

[Coma White]

But Strauss for example is true to his word

I'd also like to point out that there's an entire quest (the Gargoyle in the Chinese Theater) in which you can corner Strauss into basically admitting he has lied or at the very least conveniently omitted telling you the Gargoyle is HIS creation and ultimately his problem. So if you think Strauss is trustworthy, then you must be pretty fucking gullible.

 

[Lhynn]

Strauss is true to his word, that he leaves aside dirty details is of no real consequence.

 

[Coma White]

Strauss is true to his word, that he leaves aside dirty details is of no real consequence.

How convenient for him.

But seriously; trust ANYONE in Bloodlines at your own peril. Strauss may have more civil goals than say LaCroix, but that doesn't mean he is manipulating you less than any of the others. He may leave aside the "dirty details". But as you should know; the devil's in the details.

 

[Prime Junta]

You can trust a vampire to be a vampire. Strauss has an interest in maintaining stability and is not in a position to go power-mad because of the Pyramid keeping a check on him. If these goals align with yours, he's a reliable ally. He'll only screw you over if you become a threat or if your goals diverge.

Also if you're playing as a Tremere and are willing to take a lowly spot in the Pyramid, he's a natural ally.

 

[Jazz_]

Strauss is an ethical leader, even ginger minge doesn't sway him:

 

[Wesp5]

Strauss is an ethical leader, even ginger minge doesn't sway him:

Judging from the HUD graphics this is not from the original game but from a mod, either TFN or ATM I would guess...

 

[Coma White]

Judging from the HUD graphics this is not from the original game but from a mod, either TFN or ATM I would guess...

Just goes to show: the more you feel like you can trust your fellow Kindred, the less you should.

 

[Jazz_]

Judging from the HUD graphics this is not from the original game but from a mod, either TFN or ATM I would guess...

Uhm I vividly remember Velvet having the hots for Strauss, and I have never played any mod other than your plus patch. In the intro you can even see Velvet sending a kiss to Strauss and Strauss reacting like ''oh pluh-ease''. But it might be I only saw the e-mails on the internet and wrongly assumed I saw them in game too.

 

[Zero Credibility]

But Strauss for example is true to his word

I'd also like to point out that there's an entire quest (the Gargoyle in the Chinese Theater) in which you can corner Strauss into basically admitting he has lied or at the very least conveniently omitted telling you the Gargoyle is HIS creation and ultimately his problem. So if you think Strauss is trustworthy, then you must be pretty fucking gullible.

It's been some time since I played this game, but I do remember this part well and I think you are mistaken in your intepretation of the events.

After finding a book linking gargoyles and the Tremere clan you can go ask Strauss what he knows about gargoyles. And then he just comes out that this gargoyle is his creation. This is how the dialogue goes, there is no cornering, the PC has no link between between them before and is actually surprised by the confession.

Considering that betraying his secret locks you out of his ending I'd say the entire thing is just a test of loyalty for the PC.

 

[makiavelli747]

You side with Strauss not because you trust him as a friend, but because you don't want him as an enemy.

 

[Wesp5]

In case some of you want to replay it again, the Unofficial Patch 9.6 has been released! Find it as usual on The Patches Scrolls: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/patch/4647/7/73591

Changelog:

v9.6 04.08.2016
----
+Fixed warform-weapons bug, moved Yugo to pier and limo onto street.
+Adjusted some weapon damages for plus and restored some for basic.
+Added shake to forklift hit and improved two friend emails timings.
+Fixed museum areaportal and small texture issues, thanks Psycho-A.
+Added door to SM haven bathroom and masquerade area outside museum.
Mentioned Clan Lasombra in the world loading tips, thanks to IanW.
Corrected bad elevator light at Red Dragon and Jezebel's door lock.
Fixed decapitation shot and restored basic drugbox value and rain.
Unified keypad sounds and fixed wrong detection and sounds on Dane.
Fixed museum door not being locked and some minor dialogue issues.
Lowered Asylum music volume after loading and fixed minor map bugs.
Added original Japanese and Russian words to translated subtitles.
Fixed Society of Leopold map hole and reduced artefacts over beach.
Updated SDK and fixed audio loop at Fu Syndicate, thanks Psycho-A.
Made manholes in Venture Tower cellar and Ocean House sewers close.
Fixed bad Kerri dialogue start and delayed Jeanette and Ming ones.
Used autoexec.cfg to fix talk dsp sound and frame rate door issues.
Enhanced some areaportals at Leopold Society and Giovanni Mansion.
Recompiled Kamikaze Zen and Zhao's Warehouse maps to fix some bugs.
Fixed Nosferatu causing Masquerade violations exiting Luckee Star.
Made Chunk not attack you if you convinced him thus in the endgame.
Fixed some Ocean House rails, areaportals, shadows and a map hole.
Adjusted volume of some NPC lines and removed doubled pier effects.

 

[Coma White]

In case some of you want to replay it again, the Unofficial Patch 9.6 has been released! Find it as usual on The Patches Scrolls: http://www.patches-scrolls.de/patch/4647/7/73591

Changelog:

v9.6 04.08.2016
----
+Fixed warform-weapons bug, moved Yugo to pier and limo onto street.
+Adjusted some weapon damages for plus and restored some for basic.
+Added shake to forklift hit and improved two friend emails timings.
+Fixed museum areaportal and small texture issues, thanks Psycho-A.
+Added door to SM haven bathroom and masquerade area outside museum.
Mentioned Clan Lasombra in the world loading tips, thanks to IanW.
Corrected bad elevator light at Red Dragon and Jezebel's door lock.
Fixed decapitation shot and restored basic drugbox value and rain.
Unified keypad sounds and fixed wrong detection and sounds on Dane.
Fixed museum door not being locked and some minor dialogue issues.
Lowered Asylum music volume after loading and fixed minor map bugs.
Added original Japanese and Russian words to translated subtitles.
Fixed Society of Leopold map hole and reduced artefacts over beach.
Updated SDK and fixed audio loop at Fu Syndicate, thanks Psycho-A.
Made manholes in Venture Tower cellar and Ocean House sewers close.
Fixed bad Kerri dialogue start and delayed Jeanette and Ming ones.
Used autoexec.cfg to fix talk dsp sound and frame rate door issues.
Enhanced some areaportals at Leopold Society and Giovanni Mansion.
Recompiled Kamikaze Zen and Zhao's Warehouse maps to fix some bugs.
Fixed Nosferatu causing Masquerade violations exiting Luckee Star.
Made Chunk not attack you if you convinced him thus in the endgame.
Fixed some Ocean House rails, areaportals, shadows and a map hole.
Adjusted volume of some NPC lines and removed doubled pier effects.

Some players may not agree with the spirit of some of the changes you make, but I think we all have to admire your devotion to (obsession with?) this wonderful game after so many years.

 

[Goral]

+Added door to SM haven bathroom and masquerade area outside museum.

Everything looks OK or very good except this one. Doors are annoying in Bloodlines so why would you add them?

Anyway, thank you for your work.

 

[Wesp5]

Besides that we finally fixed the get-stuck-in-doors-bug that was actually caused by too high framerates , the door was added because when Heather brings you the guy to feed upon, she locks him in the bathroom and he keeps talking about the stupid door, but in the old haven there wasn't one !

 

[Goral]

she locks him in the bathroom and he keeps talking about the stupid door

One can always blame it on drugs. Bathroom doors usually have locks on the inside so I don't see how she could lock him up there anyway (she could probably overpower him with her ghoulish strength and block the way but it's entirely different thing). Anyway, I would love a mod where there would be no doors. Maybe it would break the immersion but it would be so convenient :].