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Rift / Vive / VR General

Jack Of Owls

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I don't really understand a lot about contemporary consumer VR products but I suspect one thing that holds it back and makes it look so basic and sluggish is that most games are designed for the standalone devices with no doubt very weak CPUs/GPUs compared to PCs/consoles. Unless I'd use it for something casual and undemanding like Minecraft, I'll mostly be playing VR games using the horsepower of my PC... or try to.
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,091
I don't really understand a lot about contemporary consumer VR products but I suspect one thing that holds it back and makes it look so basic and sluggish is that most games are designed for the standalone devices with no doubt very weak CPUs/GPUs compared to PCs/consoles. Unless I'd use it for something casual and undemanding like Minecraft, I'll mostly be playing VR games using the horsepower of my PC... or try to.

That is exactly what holds it back. The VR games advertised to the normie consumer are slop like Job Simulator. About 5 minutes of novelty at best. Anything that only uses the native VR headset with no PC tends to look like a nintendo 64 game.
 

Nathaniel3W

Rockwell Studios
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
I was an Oculus Rift Kickstarter backer. I haven't really followed VR since getting my original dev kit. Please tell me that at least the standalone VR headsets can be plugged into a PC and that they're not exclusively standalone.
 

Oropay

Educated
Joined
May 26, 2021
Messages
78
^ You can plug the standalone HMDs like the Quest or the Pico into PC uver USB, or even run wirelessly if your router is fast enough. You're basically encoding and streaming video from the PC (as I understand things). It's not a direct video feed over HDMI or DP connection AFIAK. This means the quality is substantially lower than what you can get with a Valve Index for instance, and of course if you have Radeon, which has a shitty encoder, you're doubly fucked. I imagine there's also a small latency penalty due to encoding.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
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Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,581
^... I imagine there's also a small latency penalty due to encoding.
That shouldn't be much as they can encode not frames but lines. But this is two edged because it can't work between frames and code the difference. So it's inherently crappy.
The interesting thing is if Deckard has eye tracking, that would cut down the required resolution to be streamed. But it needs to be barely two digits overall so it's a big elephant for now I don't think it will work.

they're not exclusively standalone.
if eye tracking is hard (inside barely two digit ms timewindow) that's a good justification for standalone and probably worths it seeing CoD IW runs so well on steamdeck and Valve's engine is pretty similar.
 
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Doktor Best

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Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,853
I was an Oculus Rift Kickstarter backer. I haven't really followed VR since getting my original dev kit. Please tell me that at least the standalone VR headsets can be plugged into a PC and that they're not exclusively standalone.

Pretty much all of them are capable pcvr devices. You can run pcvr even over wifi so youre playing without a cable.
^ You can plug the standalone HMDs like the Quest or the Pico into PC uver USB, or even run wirelessly if your router is fast enough. You're basically encoding and streaming video from the PC (as I understand things). It's not a direct video feed over HDMI or DP connection AFIAK. This means the quality is substantially lower than what you can get with a Valve Index for instance, and of course if you have Radeon, which has a shitty encoder, you're doubly fucked. I imagine there's also a small latency penalty due to encoding.

I have tested my wireless Quest2 setup against an Index and Reverb G2. Both Index and G2 have native video output and therefor no compression, but with the most recent update of VD enabling hevc265 10bit encoding, for the most part compression is neglible. There are a few games in which you will notice it and performance overhead is still present (much more so with amd and older nvidia cards than with my rtx 3080), but the increase in resolution puts wireless Q2 visually slightly above Index.

Reverb G2 beats both in clarity but there were so many issues with it that i sent it back immediately. Also notice that while in the center area you have a great picture, edge to edge clarity was horrible (at least with the device i got).

There is a slight delay in controller tracking. I'm slightly more lethal in Pavlov on psvr2 compared to Quest2 for that reason. On maps with frequent long range firefights the superior render resolution of Q2 pcvr evens out the slight latency drawback even. I like to play on both systems and usually can hold my own on both.

There is no reason other than wanting to avoid Meta at all cost to go for an Index above the Quest Pro right now. Index is outdated hardware. If you want to splurge and you absolutely need native pcvr go with big screen beyond.

Q3 will introduce pancake lenses to the plebs. Pico4 already has them, havent tested it yet and a buddy of mine who is into simracing is very fond of his. I would wait for Q3 if i was looking to get into vr the next few months. The new chip in Q3 will improve wireless pcvr and standalone vr pretty substantially.
 

tritosine2k

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Dec 29, 2010
Messages
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If they get eye tracking right that's much bigger deal than pancake, if it only works with standalone then that's it for a lot of companies. Pancake is just the new bandwagon shit it's barely a solution let alone mass market.
 

pOcHa

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Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
is there anything better now than psv2r, or coming up and compatible with ps5

vr noob, looking to get one for a nepfew
 

Oropay

Educated
Joined
May 26, 2021
Messages
78
with the most recent update of VD enabling hevc265 10bit encoding, for the most part compression is neglible. There are a few games in which you will notice it and performance overhead is still present (much more so with amd and older nvidia cards than with my rtx 3080), but the increase in resolution puts wireless Q2 visually slightly above Index. Index is outdated hardware. If you want to splurge and you absolutely need native pcvr go with big screen beyond.
I certainly wasn't recommending someone buy the Index (as an HMD purchase depends on many factors), but I would think that with supersampling and a native output the image quality could be better on the Index; however I'm aware the the Index is slightly lower resolution, and with the h.265 10 bit Virtual Desktop update any difference definitely might be negligible. I am not speaking from experience, as I've got the Samsung Odyssey+ as my only HMD.

compatible with ps5
You answered your own question
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
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Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,581
There's hardly anything native about VR now because lens predistortion (it was a horrible way to start also this is not solved by pancake). Compression is just crap unless it's at least perceptually lossless, then it's hardly compressing it's around 1:2 1:3. Eye tracking is over 1:10, but might be standalone only. And that has tons of upside because uniform hardware and no dx12 & shit.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,120
I have a gorillion RPGs on Steam, but there's no way to sort based on if there is a VR mod for them or not. Pure suffering

As an aside, how fucking stupid are developers that they kept pushing graphical fidelity with unnecessary shit like ray-tracing instead of just making first person POV and VR an industry standard? Elite: Dangerous in VR with all the graphics set to Indian Fiverr Programmer is more impressive than 2077 at 4k
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,091
I have a gorillion RPGs on Steam, but there's no way to sort based on if there is a VR mod for them or not. Pure suffering

As an aside, how fucking stupid are developers that they kept pushing graphical fidelity with unnecessary shit like ray-tracing instead of just making first person POV and VR an industry standard? Elite: Dangerous in VR with all the graphics set to Indian Fiverr Programmer is more impressive than 2077 at 4k

I think for horror games, shooters, and open world games especially, it would be an absolute crime not to make good VR ports. I never in my life was interested in horror games or shooters. I enjoy them in VR because they are entirely different (better) games.
 

Fargus

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Mosqueow
I have a gorillion RPGs on Steam, but there's no way to sort based on if there is a VR mod for them or not.

There aren't that many flatscreen to vr mods (with proper hand tracking, not talking about vorpx half measure) for rpgs to begin with. You can probably count them using one hand. I'm aware of Skyrim and F4 official VR versions, then there are Gothic 1 and Deus EX VR mods in the making with uncertain release date and Deus Ex one is more of an engine update with bonus VR support. I'm not sure 7dtd or Valheim vr mods count, these games probably have some rpg elements but in general just survival jerk offs.
 

ind33d

Learned
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Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,120
Modders are apparently adding VR support to the Jedi Knight franchise but it's still in beta
 

Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,928
Pimax released half a year ago their Pimax Crystal and they enabled fovated rendering. About 20% boost to FPS. The higher resolution and FOV you have the higher boost you get. This is also resolution only so it doesn't change shadow resolution etc.

Honestly this headset looks like insane.

almost 3k per eye (2800x2800) which is 35ppd(!!)
hdr with local dimming QLED
120horizontal fov but instead of 18ppd like in Index it is 35ppd
fovated rendering/eye tracking
both standalone and pcvr (so it can be wireless pc too) coming with 2 easily swappable batteries on back.

downsides:
- 1500€ which is costly,
- pimax software which isn't the best and
- weight 1,2kg


 
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Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,928
Decided to sell my Quest 2 and move to Pico 4. I wanted to wait for Quest 3 but i don't care about standalone VR.

Reasons:
- 2160x2160 resolution vs 1832×1920 per eye which is about 20% improvement.
- better LCD screen with deeper blacks, Quest 2 has TERRIBLE blacks and this is slight improvement.
- Pancake lenses = much better clarity and massive sweet spot compared to Quest 2 fresnels.
- Pico 4 has wider FOV (103) rivaling Valve Index(105), Quest 2 is (92).
- front weights only 250 grams vs 550 gram of quest 2 front and it is much thinner with mass closer to face
- Quest 3 is about to release = Quest 2 soon to lose a lot of price, so better sell it now.
- Mechanized-auto IPD adjustment. Quest 2 has 3 IPD settings and my eyes are in middle of 2 settings. So better 3D effect for me. And it auto adjusts to eyes.
- Cheap. Switching to Pico4 with selling Quest 2 will give me new headset with quest2money+extra20-30$
- no need for facebook and comes with apk installer from get go. So emulation of favorite games + pad support no fucking around needed. Quest 2 has annoying bugs with apk instals and running non facebook apps. But once you run emulation it can do everything up to 3DS/Switch as XR2 is really great android cpu/gpu.

Pico4 is only 90hz vs Quest2 120hz but frankly i never cared much about high refresh rate in VR as i Usually play around 60fps PC games. Another downside is that i have elite strap for Quest 2 and with it i could get 4-5 hours of streaming to PCVR for wireless and with Pico4 it will be around 2-2.5h but I don't usually play standing so it is not huge thing for me, just more annoying.

The biggest win here for me is comfort. In past 5 years I think that we got to really nice quality of displays and now comfort is the most important thing. I work on VR doing animations for hours and Quest 2 despite being one of more comfortable headsets with elite strap battery is still imho too heavy, it gets annoying after 1-2 hours. With half the weight Pico4 should be comfortable for much longer periods in not infinite time. Especially weight close to head thanks to pancake lenses is important.

I'll do review later.
 
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Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
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15,928
Could've waited for Pico 5. Speakiing of the Pico 5, the controllers just leaked. They also got rid of tracking rings, just like Quest 3.

https://www.uploadvr.com/apparent-pico-5-controller-images/

I mean i can always sell it too. Pico 5 will probably go for XR2 gen 2 and slap extra money on top of it which is something i don't care.
Thing that would cause me to switch would be oled screen or eye tracking for that fovated rendering.

In general there is stupid race toward AR right now and no doubt pico 5 will try to get same quest 3 like features so i doubt it will be improvement over pico 4 for PCVR
 
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Venser

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dm6
The thing that would make Pico 5 worthy of switching for PCVR would be a native displayport. Pico 3 had it so it's not out of the question.
 

Doktor Best

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Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,853
All Pico headsets i have used had visual distortion (the fov warps around you near the edges, sort of like a fish eye camera). Pico4 pancakes are nice, but compared to my Quest2 only a moderate upgrade (they dont have true edge to edge clarity like the Quest Pro).

If the rumors are true that Quest3 will have the same pancakes like Quest Pro it will be superior to Pico4 visually. It also most likely will be able to push higher bitrates due to better soc.

I mean if you really want better weight distribution you can argue for Pico, but to me they never have been compelling enough to warrant a switch.

I bought a Pico3 Neo Link last month for dirt cheap and i sent it back because of the warping and the compressionless videofeed being a disappointing visual upgrade.
 

Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,928
All Pico headsets i have used had visual distortion (the fov warps around you near the edges, sort of like a fish eye camera). Pico4 pancakes are nice, but compared to my Quest2 only a moderate upgrade (they dont have true edge to edge clarity like the Quest Pro).

If the rumors are true that Quest3 will have the same pancakes like Quest Pro it will be superior to Pico4 visually. It also most likely will be able to push higher bitrates due to better soc.

I mean if you really want better weight distribution you can argue for Pico, but to me they never have been compelling enough to warrant a switch.

I bought a Pico3 Neo Link last month for dirt cheap and i sent it back because of the warping and the compressionless videofeed being a disappointing visual upgrade.

From what i read Pico4 lenses are superb and huge improvement over quest2 ones especially in sweet spot area. I'll do review when they will come.
I called dude who is sending me those and he will be sending them tomorrow. So probably friday after all ehh...

My main cause to switch is like i wrote, comfort. Quest2 is very front heavy and as much as it is improvement over something like Vive etc if i can get somehing with half weight and closer to head then this is a win for me. Better lenses and resolution is just side benefit.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,853
All Pico headsets i have used had visual distortion (the fov warps around you near the edges, sort of like a fish eye camera). Pico4 pancakes are nice, but compared to my Quest2 only a moderate upgrade (they dont have true edge to edge clarity like the Quest Pro).

If the rumors are true that Quest3 will have the same pancakes like Quest Pro it will be superior to Pico4 visually. It also most likely will be able to push higher bitrates due to better soc.

I mean if you really want better weight distribution you can argue for Pico, but to me they never have been compelling enough to warrant a switch.

I bought a Pico3 Neo Link last month for dirt cheap and i sent it back because of the warping and the compressionless videofeed being a disappointing visual upgrade.

From what i read Pico4 lenses are superb and huge improvement over quest2 ones especially in sweet spot area. I'll do review when they will come.
I called dude who is sending me those and he will be sending them tomorrow. So probably friday after all ehh...

Thats what i read too and a friend of mine who is hugely into simracing switched from Q2 to Pico4 and he said its a huge improvement on clarity, however when i tried his Pico4 i could only see a small improvement.

Lens quality on Q2 varies in quality, so i suppose i got lucky and bought a Q2 with godlike lenses and the ones who say pancake is a gamechanger got a Q2 with faulty lenses.

But no matter the clarity, i couldnt get over the warping. Its definitely a software issue as the warping is natural and has to be offset with an algorithm in the headset software, which is hard to do.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,928
All Pico headsets i have used had visual distortion (the fov warps around you near the edges, sort of like a fish eye camera). Pico4 pancakes are nice, but compared to my Quest2 only a moderate upgrade (they dont have true edge to edge clarity like the Quest Pro).

If the rumors are true that Quest3 will have the same pancakes like Quest Pro it will be superior to Pico4 visually. It also most likely will be able to push higher bitrates due to better soc.

I mean if you really want better weight distribution you can argue for Pico, but to me they never have been compelling enough to warrant a switch.

I bought a Pico3 Neo Link last month for dirt cheap and i sent it back because of the warping and the compressionless videofeed being a disappointing visual upgrade.

From what i read Pico4 lenses are superb and huge improvement over quest2 ones especially in sweet spot area. I'll do review when they will come.
I called dude who is sending me those and he will be sending them tomorrow. So probably friday after all ehh...

Thats what i read too and a friend of mine who is hugely into simracing switched from Q2 to Pico4 and he said its a huge improvement on clarity, however when i tried his Pico4 i could only see a small improvement.

Lens quality on Q2 varies in quality, so i suppose i got lucky and bought a Q2 with godlike lenses and the ones who say pancake is a gamechanger got a Q2 with faulty lenses.

But no matter the clarity, i couldnt get over the warping. Its definitely a software issue as the warping is natural and has to be offset with an algorithm in the headset software, which is hard to do.

Just read about warping and pico4. Seems like good deal of early pico4 had faulty pancake lenses that caused warping issues. Sometimes even at dead center not just on the rims (where it is most found).

Hope mine is fine. It is actually new one from latest shipment.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,928
Got pico4 later on when i will go back to home i will do review.

Initial impression from my work fiddling with it for a while:

- definitely upgrade over quest2
- res is upgrade but not that much
- comfort is huuuuuuuge upgrade
- sweet spot is mega upgrade
- clarity is huuuuge upgrade
- software ? aped from quest 2 but imho upgrade, works better, no facebook, no sideloading straight up you have apk installer for retroarch etc.
- had initial problems with what Doktor Best said but after firmware update it was completely gone
- head gasket material is shitty it is more comfortable than quest2 but it soaks sweat like crazy, feels almost as waterphile sucking sweat out of mu pores lol. I plan to replace head gasket later for high FOV one.
- FOV, feels bigger but without direct comparison i can't directly say by how much. Vertical it is much bigger though.

The best thing about it so far is how light it is. Initially i thought it wasn't that much lighter but once i got it on my head... yeah. Quest 2 without elite strap with battery was imho very annoying to wear and more than 2 hours caused VR face. When i got elite strap with batter playing as counter weight quest2 became very comfortable but still after 4-5 hours i would still get annoyed and vr face was showing.

Now this, this is something different. With how comfortable it is i doubt i will get vr face for hours upon hours.

Overall initial impressions are really good. I'll do full review later once i will be able to get max out of this unit via running 3k per eye playing some pc game. Until then i can't really get resolution bump combined with clarity and fov. The issue is that there is something called barrel distortion applied on VR screen to get it work properly which causes effective resolution to be lower. In order to counter act it you need to go around 1.2-1.4 times target resolution. So with this 2,2k per eye Vr headset you need around 3k per eye ingame to run it full max
 
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