Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Adam Brennecke on Project Eternity

[Infinitron]

Grunker has turned into the angriest man on the Codex recently...what happened?

He became Codex staff. :D

 

[Grunker]

The games were overall very good but they still had these problems.

I don't agree with you, but let's try to attack this from another angle then:

You are not at all speaking to the point that video game designers make bad character systems. Since we have had plenty piss-poor video game designer character systems, and a couple of sweet-ass implementations of P&P systems, the burden of evidence is on you to answer just why "this time it'll all be different bros! We swear!"

Grunker has turned into the angriest man on the Codex recently...what happened?

I have always been an angry cocksucker when I argued about something I cared about. So that's nothing new. Perhaps you're just noticing it more because I became staff.

If you take a look at my posting history, Wyrmlord-style, you'll find plenty of instances where I'm angry cunt, and a good deal where I subsequently apologize for being an ass because I was wrong.

Clockwork Knight used to tease me a lot about that.

Have I gotten angrier lately? Perhaps. If so, it's probably because I care more about some of the stuff I argue about than I used to. Certainly this Kickstarter-thing gives us all something to actually care about, finally, we've been missing that for a long while. So that's nice. But let's be honest, this place wouldn't be half as fun if you didn't get into some shouting matches sometimes. It's also one of the things that makes sure you don't do these poster-circle-jerks where you find someone you agree with and then stroke their cock in every thread... at least I've shouted at plenty of bros in my time here, including DU*, CK, Walker, Bee, VD, Roxor (in fact we quite regularly shout at each other) and so on. Infinitron is just the latest of the bunch. I do recall having a shouting match with darkpatriot before... suffice it to say that our opinion on P&P systems do NOT align (i.e. his is retarded ).




*I actually called DU a retard in an AoD-thread not long before I became staff... coincidence? I think not.

 

[Cynic]

It all makes sense now. Become Codex staff, and become one with rage itself. I support all the shit you are saying here though G bro. I haven't backed P:E yet. At first it was because I was waiting for a new credit card to get mailed to me. I will most likely end up backing it very soon, but I would really REALLY love to see a pre alpha of some kind of battle mechanics in action...not that it's gonna happen.

 

[Roguey]

I don't know about prestige classes, but multiclassing has a stretch goal smell to it.

I think prestige classes aren't happening, but Feargus slipped in the comments section that there will be kit-like subclasses.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

which Obsidan (as a group) doesn't really have the track record to backup.

Like, hey. I know you're trolling and everything...but Sawyer, Cain and MCA really, really do have the track record to back dat ass up. People aren't pledging to Project Eternity. They're pledging to those guys and saying "Hey, without publishers breathing down their neck I bet we get something great." Not really that far-fetched a thing for people to be doing.

 

[Jaesun]

which Obsidan (as a group) doesn't really have the track record to backup.

Like, hey. I know you're trolling and everything...but Sawyer, Cain and MCA really, really do have the track record to back dat ass up. People aren't pledging to Project Eternity. They're pledging to those guys and saying "Hey, without publishers breathing down their neck I bet we get something great." Not really that far-fetched a thing for people to be doing.

That is the sole reason I am backing this. This will be the final moment of truth where we will see if indeed Obsidian is a competent developer (and very passionate about classic cRPG like games), and it was the publisher demands that did mess up a number of Obsidian's games.

And seriously, Tim, MCA and Josh? If they can't pull this off, then fuck it. We should just give up on cRPG's*.

*Some of the awesome indie stuff is pretty awesome however. Underrail, Underwold Gold etc..

 

[FeelTheRads]

Again, the Infinity Engine games, with the exception of IWD2, were AD&D 2E. That's what Obsidian has to match.

And why do you assume that? Why not "match" IWD2? Just get 3.5E OGL and you're good to go. Somehow one single guy managed to make a good implementation of it, but for Obsidian it would be impossible! Poor Obsidian! Otherwise they can make a new awesome system by themselves!

Note that I understand them wanting to do their own system, but their public reasons sounds like bullshit. Sure, it might be faster if you're going for something much simpler. But then, is the trade-off worth it?

 

[Marsal]

Grunker has turned into the angriest man on the Codex recently...what happened?

If you take a look at my posting history, Wyrmlord-style, you'll find plenty of instances where I'm angry cunt, and a good deal where I subsequently apologize for being an ass because I was wrong.

You just need to stop doing this and become the perfect Codexer. Remember, you are never wrong, others are stupid retards incapable of understanding your arguments.

Go Grunker!

 

[Infinitron]

And why do you assume that? Why not "match" IWD2?

Hopefully they will! But the IE games are the inspiration for Project Eternity - Josh Sawyer respectfully described them on his Formspring as "the source games" - and most of them, and the most famous and successful ones at that, were 2E.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Borderlands is constantly critiqued for poor character systems by just about everyone. WTF are you talkin about, Pat?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Have I gotten angrier lately? Perhaps. If so, it's probably because I care more about some of the stuff I argue about than I used to. Certainly this Kickstarter-thing gives us all something to actually care about, finally, we've been missing that for a long while. So that's nice. But let's be honest, this place wouldn't be half as fun if you didn't get into some shouting matches sometimes.

How could I not love the place where I learned I am a self styled moral scholar shithead? Where all opinions can be voiced and immediately shat upon? Where liking a game can mean you're a blubbering retard unfit to live, unless you write a mini-review, in which case you're an okay blubbering retard?

It all makes sense now. Become Codex staff, and become one with rage itself.

It's sorta like the Joining in Dragon Age, but the Taint they drink is actually sweat from DU's perineum. It is said to be composed of the same stuff that viking berserkers took before charging into battle.

 

[Mangoose]

Again: KotC was made by a random fucking dude in a random fucking basement, it had a flawless rendition of D&D and not a single fucking AI problem.

Don't assume that just because a game was difficult, its AI was good. Encounter design/balance has just as much to do with difficulty as AI (and can make up for less-than-par AI).

I don't recall enemies in KotC using all of the tools available to the player.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I recall that in the codex KotC LP the player managed to exploit the fact that the AI would desperately try to reach his mage, so much that he started using said mage less like artillery and more like bait.

 

[CappenVarra]

Well, it was limited as all game AI ultimately is. But the first time the enemy AI bull-rushes you into a fire... it's beautiful.

 

[tuluse]

Again, the Infinity Engine games, with the exception of IWD2, were AD&D 2E. That's what Obsidian has to match.

And why do you assume that? Why not "match" IWD2? Just get 3.5E OGL and you're good to go. Somehow one single guy managed to make a good implementation of it, but for Obsidian it would be impossible! Poor Obsidian! Otherwise they can make a new awesome system by themselves!

Note that I understand them wanting to do their own system, but their public reasons sounds like bullshit. Sure, it might be faster if you're going for something much simpler. But then, is the trade-off worth it?

RTwP vs Turn Based.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

which Obsidan (as a group) doesn't really have the track record to backup.

Like, hey. I know you're trolling and everything...but Sawyer, Cain and MCA really, really do have the track record to back dat ass up. People aren't pledging to Project Eternity. They're pledging to those guys and saying "Hey, without publishers breathing down their neck I bet we get something great." Not really that far-fetched a thing for people to be doing.

Not really trolling actually. I've got a lot of respect for the guys as people who strongly desire to make good role-playing games but it's not as cut and dry as "they're all awesome, with their powers combined, this game will be Captain Planet!".

Sawyer has made a lot of questionable design decisions in the past (questionable enough that I vividly recall Saint_Proverbius, myself and others having a go at him back in the day over a number of different issues). This is back around the old BIS / Interplay days. Sawyer was also the Lead Designer of the great SLUM DUNK!¹ that was Icewind Dale 2 (¹Hint: It wasn't), the combat filled cluster-fuck of a follow-up to the original Icewind Dale. Saint_Proverbius had a running joke something along the lines that one day, Sawyer might actually work on a project that a) didn't end up getting cancelled; and b) wasn't a miserable failure in the sales department. Sawyer is the Project Leader on P:E.

Chris Avellone is a great writer - at times - but he was also Lead Designer on Alpha Protocol. While it's clear they tried to do something more, there was a lot in that game that just fell flat. Chris was also with Sawyer on Icewind Dale 2 and other projects which were... less than successful going back over the years. Again, while he has his "moments" (notably Planscape: Torment), there's been a lot of, shall I say, less than successful endeavours.

Tim Cain I have the most faith in, simply because I enjoyed all of Troika's games. They each had many things great about them... but they also mostly blowed in the combat department (except for ToEE, which was based on the D&D ruleset). Not saying all his work is shit - but that he's certainly not beyond being flawed. Now Tim's working on the combat system for P:E. Another downside is that Troika was Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason D. Anderson. They proved they could work together and, despite the flaws, make some really nice and interesting games.

But wrap that all up in Obsidian Entertainment. There are more people at Obsidian than just these three above and again - while Troika proved they could make good games with the team they had - Obsidian has not yet proven their ability to work together in my eyes. Where they have done something wonderful, it was a sequel, built with the construction kit tools handed to them by another developer (MotB, F:NV). Remember how their own game, Alpha Protocol, was going to be reactive and have different options and shit? And the game was pretty buggy, cliched and mostly crap? Yeah... That makes me question the abilities of their team and their design decisions. You can blame budget issues and publishers all you like - but in the end, Obsidian are responsible for most of their own management. Now they have a smaller budget and full responsibility.

I think they'll come up with "something" - that might even be worth checking out, but at this point, I'm not greatly inspired. The KickStarter looks like it was down-right being run by amateurs who have been making it up as they go. This is after they've seen the success of Wasteland 2 (IE: How to do it right). They're not able to give a name for the project because they "just don't know" what the right name for it is yet (they're that early in development), yet at the same time, they put out the world's most generic fantasy game map you can think of and promote that in the KickStarter. Do they know about this world or not?

The fact is, game development is a process. During the early stages of game design, you throw around all sorts of great and wonderful ideas and you talk about how "the game will be different on every replay" or about the "storyline choices" and the "more mature world" but when you actually sit down and crunch that all out into a "So what the fuck does 'multiple branching storylines mean anyway'?", stuff gets dropped. Ideas that seemed great aren't able to be pulled off because they didn't really have a solid idea on how to implement them. Something that looked great on paper - turns out not to be in-game (AoD's latest update is a classic example of this, and while my own creative efforts over the years are piddling at best, I can attest to the times when "a really awesome idea" everyone loved turned into a steaming piece of shit because we couldn't make it actually work).

P:E is very, very early in development. If they'd had 3 - 6 months and really nailed down that game world and even done a quick "rough and ready" prototype to start testing their combat elements before they'd done the KickStarter, I'd have more faith. But as it is, I see another bunch of guys who over the years, have all made varying promises on games they've worked on that have turned out flat. Take a look at their video after they hit the $1.1 Million. "We're really amazed... since we hit the $1.1 Million, we've spent the last four hours in the office coming up with stretch goals". Did they do a proper budget on those while they were at it?

This really is game development by the seat of your pants. And I've never seen that turn out well. I won't be surprised if Project: Eternity turns out to be - in some ways much like Alpha Protocol (or dare I say, to some extent, Arcanum?) - something that aspires to be more but which gets dragged down by poor management, poor early design decisions (without sufficient time, leadership and budget to correct them) and runs out of money before they can achieve their overly ambitious aims.

I'll make a quick comparison point with Wasteland 2 here and say that Fargo has been talking about a Wasteland sequel for almost a decade (InXile bought the rights to Wasteland back in 2003, and you know they've been working on the idea of developing it ever since. Including developing concept art, 3 years ago). He knows the game world, he knows the game mechanics he'd like, he had a clear idea, a clear vision and a clear notion of what he wanted to achieve - which was all developed over years... While Obsidian spent 4 hours creating a design document which now accounts for half their budget.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Hey, I don't disagree, mang (aside from a few points) you're pretty much mirroring a lot of what I thought (still think?) about this Obsidian Kickstarter. But I'll make a few short points of my own:

* Tim Cain is really what sold it for me.
* Huge Fallout 2 fan. Yes, even the MCA parts half the world seems to hate. So, besides PS:T and Dead Money (which I may have liked more than any FO:NV in-game quest/area/stories save a few) I'm pretty sure I just like his style. I didn't like AP as a game overall but where I could see his stamp, I enjoyed it.
* Sawyer led NV. I loved NV. And even back in the day I was hugely in support of VanBuren. Again, yes almost all the shit which people were hating on. Maybe it was simply my excitement for another title in the series...who knows. I always thought it sounded great.

I understand this isn't the world...but for me to maintain confidence with a huge benefit of the doubt? I'd say it's more than enough.

 

[Infinitron]

The KickStarter looks like it was down-right being run by amateurs who have been making it up as they go. This is after they've seen the success of Wasteland 2 (IE: How to do it right).

 

[Gakkone]

Another brofist to Infinitron. A lot of people seem to be taking the feeling they've personally got from the campaing as a measure of success instead of the actual amount of pledges the project has. Truth is, they're doing extremely fucking well.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The KickStarter looks like it was down-right being run by amateurs who have been making it up as they go. This is after they've seen the success of Wasteland 2 (IE: How to do it right).

http://i.imgur.com/UbZLJ.png

That really only proves how many BioTards there are out there who are hoping for more romance simulators.

Another brofist to Infinitron. A lot of people seem to be taking the feeling they've personally got from the campaing as a measure of success instead of the actual amount of pledges the project has. Truth is, they're doing extremely fucking well.

There are plenty of people who have said "would've donated but concerned about..." or "would've donated more but...".

IE: That graph doesn't tell you what they're missing out on.

... or are you really telling me that P:E, made by a company who have significantly more exposure than Double Fine, is only getting as much funding as an adventure game?

 

[Infinitron]

Seriously, this just goes to show you the power of a bad first impression for those who are already prejudiced against something.

Yes, they had that false start with the missing/bad stretch goals, but since then it's been a fairly kick-ass campaign with nearly daily updates and plenty of MCA, Sawyer and Cain fanservice. You probably don't remember how lame Wasteland 2's entire first couple of weeks were, when all Brian could bring was that cheesy Fox News parody video.

 

[J_C]

The KickStarter looks like it was down-right being run by amateurs who have been making it up as they go. This is after they've seen the success of Wasteland 2 (IE: How to do it right).

http://i.imgur.com/UbZLJ.png

That really only proves how many BioTards there are out there who are hoping for more romance simulators.

No, it proves that you don't have any idea what are you talking about. Ah, your pretty Wasteland 2, with its professional KS lags behind PE. It's a damn shame.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Ah, your pretty Wasteland 2, with its professional KS lags behind PE. It's a damn shame.

Ah, the war has started. P:E already has retarded fanboys bashing everything else, even potentially better games.

 

[J_C]

Ah, your pretty Wasteland 2, with its professional KS lags behind PE. It's a damn shame.

Ah, the war has started. P:E already has retarded fanboys bashing everything else, even potentially better games.

I would just shut up if I were you, if I don't know what other people are talking about. I wasn't bashing W2 retard, just mocking DU, since the "fucked up" PE kickstarter is doing better than the "professional" W2.

 

[Infinitron]

There are plenty of people who have said "would've donated but concerned about..." or "would've donated more but...".

IE: That graph doesn't tell you what they're missing out on.

... or are you really telling me that P:E, made by a company who have significantly more exposure than Double Fine, is only getting as much funding as an adventure game?