Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Adam Brennecke on Project Eternity

[General Maxson]

It's not that I'm excited. I just recognize what this game is...and I'm okay with it.

But hey, maybe Obsidian's talks with WOTC will go somewhere and we'll get another D&D game too, someday?

Can you elaborate this a bit more please?

 

[Roguey]

Ah Adam Brennecke. Remember this? http://twitter.com/#!/adam_brennecke/status/98213614271475712

But let's finish this before it starts: We wait for the character system. If it is indeed as complex as 3.5E or Pathfinder, I will yield without comment and you shall be vindicated. And then I'm even nice enough to not even include in this statement the fact that video game designers are nowhere near as capable of making good character systems as system designers whose systems have been exposed to public scrunity for nearly a decade and has been perfected through-out this duration.

lol Josh Sawyer has said that D&D 3.5/Pathfinder is balanced for shit and that it's far, far easier and quicker to balance a computer game and this is one of the reasons why 4e is more like a MMO.

Editin' in a source:
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/641429588

Generally speaking, I think most tabletop RPG systems are crummy. It's very telling that the latest edition of D&D in many ways resembles an MMO rule set more than a traditional tabletop RPG rule set. By their very nature, games on a computer can be systemically tested much more quickly than they could be by hand (or on tabletop). This process tends to separate the wheat from the chaff at a rapid pace.

Let the QQin' begin.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not that I'm excited. I just recognize what this game is...and I'm okay with it.

But hey, maybe Obsidian's talks with WOTC will go somewhere and we'll get another D&D game too, someday?

Can you elaborate this a bit more please?

I swear that I read recently that Obsidian were talking with Hasbro about something, but I can't find it now.

 

[Roguey]

Infinitron http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ct-eternity-thread.75947/page-66#post-2284924

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Roguey I hope somebody takes the thorn out of your paw someday.

 

[General Maxson]

It's not that I'm excited. I just recognize what this game is...and I'm okay with it.

But hey, maybe Obsidian's talks with WOTC will go somewhere and we'll get another D&D game too, someday?

Can you elaborate this a bit more please?

I swear that I read recently that Obsidian were talking with Hasbro about something, but I can't find it now.

WTF bro?

 

[CappenVarra]

What's wrong with being curious?

arrr ye daft boyo?!

Nothing's wrong with being curious, I'm just as curious as you. That doesn't have anything to do with my fear of the facts, and the fact is I've never seen a character system developed by a video game designer that comes even close to tested systems. In other words, you can be curious while having this in mind:

it's about whether you actually believe there's a chance their system will be anywhere near the complexity, depth and balance of tested systems developed by system designers.

I really don't know how to put it any clearer... You're basically saying we should ignore critical thinking because we're exited. Not an opinion that goes far with me, or indeed should on the Codex.

I agree that at this point it's pretty much a given that the resulting system will be simpler than 3.5E or Pathfinder - there's no way they are going to spend man-years of effort coming up with a system and working out its kinks with this kind of budget. And the history of game developers coming up with systems of their own does indeed show derp is the most likely outcome (well hello there, DA:O!). We can say we're excited to see what Obsidian will come up and hope it'll be much better than what lesser game developers (ehem) managed, but being wary is the cold and reasonable stance on this one. Too bad cold reason doesn't generate excitement and will to donate, eh? But hell, I'll be fine with something reasonably complex and usable (and without a goddamn cooldown in sight).

But then again, let's look at KoTC - it does start with OGL 3.5 bits, but it also makes a whole bunch of rule changes that make it work in the context of the game - and the main reason I'm fucking pissed off that KoTC2 is nowhere near ready is that the dev demonstrated his ability to take a P&P system and successfully remodel/house-rule it for a different context. And why is that guy not using that ability to make an ambitious KoTC++ dungeon crawler for my entertainment? Because of silly financial reasons. Fuck this gay earth.

Uhm, went on a bit of a tangent there, sorry. But if a single guy can do that, surely someone at Obsidian can look at the past systems used in games they're quoting as inspiration, make a judgment call what worked well and what failed (or read 10 years of prestigious codex debate ), and use those lessons to come up with a similar yet original system for the game? I mean, it would be pretty sad if they weren't able to house-rule and mash-up an existing system or three enough that the result isn't too recognizable, and changes parts their experience tells them won't work in the game? So, while I'm not 100% convinced they can make a great system, I don't think it's too optimistic to expect them to come up with a decent one.

However, another reason for wariness is their non-committal and vagueness (which I understand is needed to bring in as much money as possible) - which might also mean they'll try to come up with something that won't be too off-putting for people who think BG1 is "hard-core old-school". That can only end in tears. But they're probably at a similar stage with the system as they are with the story - some general outlines, ideas what they want to emphasize and how it might be achieved, but nothing too solid. If I'm wrong, they're welcome to create a thread in the Workshop and we'll settle it in no time

 

[Infinitron]

CappenVarra Remember that from Obsidian's perspective, they only have to match the quality of 2E, not 3.5E.
A much less daunting task.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

My contributions have been leading the team on the pitch video, the Kickstarter website, the concept of the project, and the rewards tiers.

Finally, we know who needs to be fired. Obsidian: Make it happen.

Currently one of the challenges is to figure out how to capture the look and feel of the isometric games. We have a few programmers and artists working it out right now.

Hint: Make it isometric. It's actually a pretty well defined perspective:

An isometric view of an object can be obtained by choosing the viewing direction in a way that the angles between the projection of the x, y, and z axes are all the same, or 120°. For example when taking a cube, this is done by first looking straight towards one face. Next the cube is rotated ±45° about the vertical axis, followed by a rotation of approximately ±35.264° (precisely arcsin(tan 30°) or arctan(sin 45°) ) about the horizontal axis. Note that with the cube (see image) the perimeter of the 2D drawing is a perfect regular hexagon: all the black lines are of equal length and all the cube's faces are the same area.

In a similar way an isometric view can be obtained for example in a 3D scene editor. Starting with the camera aligned parallel to the floor and aligned to the coordinate axes, it is first rotated downwards around the horizontal axes by about 35.264° as above, and then rotated ±45° around the vertical axis.​

There, we just solved their isometric problem. Obsidian should hire me. I'm sure I can point out more Wikipedia articles for them.

Project Eternity is the best name for the game right now, and I think it's a perfect fit for the type of game we are making. It's fantasy, IE-like, and has a connection to our world. The team went through a process of trying to name the game with an actual name. However we felt that it was too difficult creatively, because the story and themes of the game are in such early stages of development. We don't want to be stuck with a name that doesn't fit the game. We put "Project" in the title to make sure people don't confuse the title with something that's final.

Which means they're way, way, way too early to really be promising anything. It means they don't know how their soul system will work, mechanics will fit together and so on - and they might find that something they wanted, doesn't actually work well or gets lost in translation. It also proves their KickStarter really is "trust us, it'll be awesome" - which Obsidan (as a group) doesn't really have the track record to backup.

With a higher Kickstarter number the team will get larger

More mouths to feed, more people to manage and more issues to resolve. I'd rather see one EXCELLENT artist (for example) take care of a large majority of the game's art - and just use the extra money to keep paying him for the extra months it will take - rather than see three more grunts get hired, then the good artist be appointed their Manager and then have him spend most of his time trying to correct their shitty inferior work.

Obsidian's objective here is to finally develop their own successful IP

You mean like Alpha Protocol?

 

[Mangoose]

Complexity in video games isn't more complexity = better system.

One of the issues created from using a Pen and Paper/Board Game system in a video game is the AI. P&P/Board game systems aren't designed with any regards to AI. Unless a video game is created with strictly multiplayer in mind they have to write AIs. Very complex systems, especially when they include lot's of highly situational tactics/abilities, are a lot harder to write decent AIs for. So you can wind up with a very complex deep system with a shitty AI and as a result a sucky, unfun, unchallenging game.

One of the reasons creating a system from the ground up for a video game can be a more efficient choice than converting an existing system.

Good points.

 

[maverick]

You mean like Alpha Protocol?

I think Obsidian does not have the rights for Alpha Protocol. SEGA does.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, and Obsidian wnated to do a sequel but SEGA said fuck off b/c their original ip fukkin' sucked.

 

[Grunker]

It's not that I'm excited. I just recognize what this game is...and I'm okay with it.

But hey, maybe Obsidian's talks with WOTC will go somewhere and we'll get another D&D game too, someday?

But 3.5E and Pathfinder are Open Licens... ah fuck it

it's far, far easier and quicker to balance a computer game

Sure... IF IT IS MORE SIMPLE.

Why else would it be easier and quicker you retard? Does it magically become easier to balance because you write it in programming-language?

Fuck me, that is one of the most retarded fucking arguments I've ever heard. Most Computer RPGs are HORRIBLY balanced and that goes double for the ones that are not build on a pre-existing system.

By their very nature, games on a computer can be systemically tested much more quickly than they could be by hand (or on tabletop).

"You see, sitting down in front of a computer allows me to test this complex system easily, whereas the years and years of public scrunity that went before Pathfinder is a mere detail. That's why cRPGs using their own system are usually just as complex as P&P RPGs (OH WAIT THEY'RE NOT) and more balanced (OH WAIT THEY'RE NOT)!"

What a load of bullshit. Frankly, these claims make me even more uneasy, since they show how little he understands character system design.

the history of game developers coming up with systems of their own does indeed show derp is the most likely outcome (well hello there, DA:O!)

Honestly, DA:O's system was better than most. Not that it came near pre-existing systems.

(and without a goddamn cooldown in sight)

But then again, let's look at KoTC - it does start with OGL 3.5 bits, but it also makes a whole bunch of rule changes that make it work in the context of the game

Did you miss all the places I wrote something along the lines of this:

There's room for improvement, of course, and no one is saying they shouldn't move an already perfected system so it fits better with RtwP (as, indeed, the IE games did)

?

Complexity in video games isn't more complexity = better system.

One of the issues created from using a Pen and Paper/Board Game system in a video game is the AI. P&P/Board game systems aren't designed with any regards to AI. Unless a video game is created with strictly multiplayer in mind they have to write AIs. Very complex systems, especially when they include lot's of highly situational tactics/abilities, are a lot harder to write decent AIs for. So you can wind up with a very complex deep system with a shitty AI and as a result a sucky, unfun, unchallenging game.

One of the reasons creating a system from the ground up for a video game can be a more efficient choice than converting an existing system.

Might as well ping Mangoose here too.

What is it with all these fucking strawmen in this thread?

Again: KotC was made by a random fucking dude in a random fucking basement, it had a flawless rendition of D&D and not a single fucking AI problem.

Plenty of pre-existing system games have been with fine AI, what you're saying is bullshit.

You're arguing for less depth in cRPGs and you have no basis on which to do it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Why else would it be easier and quicker you retard? Does it magically become easier to balance because you write it in programming-language?

It's because Sawyer said so, so it must be true.

Seriously, Roguey must be trolling. Such disgusting blowjobbing is hard to believe.

But 3.5E and Pathfinder are Open Licens... ah fuck it

Every Obsidian fanboy conveniently forgets about that and starts babbling about licensing issues and license holders interfering.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Leave Grunker alone, his worldview is shattered because this game is not using GURPS

 

[Excommunicator]

I thought Josh Sawyer was the one leading this project. I suppose he must be the lead designer only then.

More mouths to feed, more people to manage and more issues to resolve. I'd rather see one EXCELLENT artist (for example) take care of a large majority of the game's art - and just use the extra money to keep paying him for the extra months it will take - rather than see three more grunts get hired, then the good artist be appointed their Manager and then have him spend most of his time trying to correct their shitty inferior work.

This is really important and such a common problem. "Wow your art is so awesome! Let's promote you so that you can spend all of your time managing lesser artists instead!". The best artists need to be exempt of management interferences, be paid premium rates and be given only the responsibility to create lots of great art. Fucking bureaucracy

it's far, far easier and quicker to balance a computer game

Sure... IF IT IS MORE SIMPLE.

Why else would it be easier and quicker you retard? Does it magically become easier to balance because you write it in programming-language?

Fuck me, that is one of the most retarded fucking arguments I've ever heard. Most Computer RPGs are HORRIBLY balanced and that goes double for the ones that are not build on a pre-existing system.

I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but I do agree here. There's no way it's an easier process and all the horribly balanced games out there are the testament to that. The only games that come close to feeling balanced are those that are iterated on through the community (i.e. multiplayer) like Blizzard does but even then they get balanced to the expert level not the base level as required here.

Reflecting on the post I made in the other D&D thread, I will say that even though they're jumping in way too fast, if they are intending to really develop this setting and rule system in the longer term then creating a new one is ultimately the right decision. I don't think they're going to invest the time and effort required though, and I am extremely doubtful they will come up with anything anywhere near the well developed P&P systems already out there.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I can already see the awesomeness of the Project Eternity character system before my inner eye. Created and quickly playtested and balanced in a couple of months by the guys who single-handedly invented the character systems of Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege 3, it is pretty much guaranteed to blow your mind. Promise.

ps: somewhat disappointing answers, excactly as anticipated

 

[IronicNeurotic]

I thought Josh Sawyer was the one leading this project. I suppose he must be the lead designer only then.

They both are. Brennecke looks out for the production side of things, while Josh looks out for the game itself. As for Avellone and Cain, there's nothing fixed at the moment. Laying out the full team will happen after the Kickstarter is finished and full production begins.

Avellone has laid out how it looks at the moment in a recent interview

Josh Sawyer is the project lead (and he’s involved on almost all aspects of design, including races, lore and world tone), Tim Cain is doing the same (he’s currently delving into system design) I’m doing narrative design (focus on story and characters).

 

[Grunker]

stuff

I guess according to you the Infinity Engine games never happened, huh?

You're trying to argue that a bumblebee can't fly.

Leave Grunker alone

oh that's right you're a fan of Baby's First System (i.e. Risen's character system).

he's disappointed they don't use GURPS

If this system will be even 1/10th as sophisticated as GURPS I'll sing your faggot, Risen-loving ass' praises Roxor

But we were discussing Pathfinder here.

Anyway, we will see who is right when more details on the system is released. My money is on an extremely simple system compared to complex, deep P&P systems.

 

[Infinitron]

Again, the Infinity Engine games, with the exception of IWD2, were AD&D 2E. That's what Obsidian has to match. I don't think that's unachievable.

I can already see the awesomeness of the Project Eternity character system before my inner eye. Created and quickly playtested and balanced in a couple of months by the guys who single-handedly invented the character systems of Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege 3, it is pretty much guaranteed to blow your mind. Promise.

At least it won't be a couple of weeks.

 

[Roguey]

Sure... IF IT IS MORE SIMPLE.

Why else would it be easier and quicker you retard? Does it magically become easier to balance because you write it in programming-language?

Fuck me, that is one of the most retarded fucking arguments I've ever heard. Most Computer RPGs are HORRIBLY balanced and that goes double for the ones that are not build on a pre-existing system.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3469520&userid=17931

Ddraig posted:

I honestly think the D&D structure of video games is slowly dying. They tried to make 4ED similar to something that might be incorporated into a video game to give it more relevance but as a hobby it's becoming far more niche and as more and more alternative systems to deal with RPG mechanics come about it's going to be increasingly less relevant in modern RPG video games.​

They didn't do this for relevance as much as practicality: MMORPGs expose the worst mechanical flaws in game systems. A/D&D never had particularly well-polished or balanced mechanics. Additionally, many of them were completely impractical to implement in a CRPG environment.

What a load of bullshit. Frankly, these claims make me even more uneasy, since they show how little he understands character system design.

I'm invoking the same logic VD used to defend Brian Mitsoda's writing "ability": Some nobody kid went from a web designer to junior designer on IWD to lead designer on big projects such as Fallout 3 and Baldur's Gate 3, put in charge of IWD2, left Interplay and became lead designer of Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows for Midway (though all his work was thrown out), went to Obsidian and was tasked with making NWN2 less-shitty in six months, and once again made lead designer of big projects such as Aliens, New Vegas, canceled next-gen game, and now Eternity. If he wasn't good at what he does, he wouldn't keep getting high profile positions of leadership.

 

[Darth Roxor]

oh that's right you're a fan of Baby's First System (i.e. Risen's character system).

And you know what's a funny fact? Despite being overall pretty simple and far from perfect, Risen's character system was still way more satisfying and had more "stuff to do" than the IE interpretation of AD&D 2

 

[LeStryfe79]

It will defiantly be more complex than Baldur's Gate. I imagine the system will be somewhere between NWN2 SoZ and Fallout: NV. It will be easier to hit things than in DnD, but armor will mitigate damage for instance. I don't know about prestige classes, but multiclassing has a stretch goal smell to it. The fact that they are doing subraces and "Godlikes" tells me all I need to know. It won't be quite as detailed as a PnP game like Pathfinder, but it will be more detailed than most of the PC games based on them and far, far more detailed than a game like Dragon Age. Sawyer and Cain are creating the systems and there's no way it will be oversimplified.

 

[nihil]

This game will rock.

Thanks for the interview.

 

[Cynic]

Grunker has turned into the angriest man on the Codex recently...what happened?