RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Big Wrangle]

Chris Avellone What would you say is the worst character you've written?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

 

[Abu Antar]

Look at that greedy hound to the left.

 

[ga♥]

Actually, with a Feargus message/tweet, you have to look a little closer for subtext.

In this, it's an indirect way of patting-self-on-the-back as Feargus is trying to showcase what a hard worker he is by leaving work so early in the morning - implying he’s been burning the midnight oil, like the rest of the dev team.

Dev team: my condolences.

Chris Avellone I am one of the greatest fans of yours. PST had such a deep influence on me when I was 14 years old and I will always be greateful for that experience.

Still, I really can't put myself trough your version of the events:
1 - if the company was so mismanaged, how did stay it afloat...15 years? Surely anything can happen in this crazy world but, you have to agree with me, there MUST be some merit to the managers (yourself included). So, what are those merits if you want to share?
2 - Why didn't you leave earlier?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris already mentioned that he recommended that Eric not be the creative lead because he was too busy creative leading South Park.

Looking at the list of PoE's writers, they really didn't have anyone there qualified for the job except maybe Matt MacLean who was busy elsewhere (also a lead on South Park, eventually leading Tyranny). Perhaps Avellone should have stepped up himself like Feargus initially wanted.

Stepping up was dangerous and demoralizing, especially with Feargus. For all the games that got released, there were others on the never-got-made pile.

But dispensing with the vague answer, here's the specifics of one case, and why I became hesitant to be a lead at Obsidian again (not just South Park, but elsewhere).

After DS3, I did get asked to take on a Project Director role (for a potential sequel) not by Feargus - but because of Feargus.

The reason I was asked, however, was because of how Feargus was treating the team – for all the control he tried in DS3, it had upped in DS4, and the team came to me and asked if I would come on to be a buffer between them and Feargus, since they were finding a hard time getting approvals and getting work done. It ended up being a lesson that made me very hesitant to report to Feargus (even though I did in the last year at Obsidian).

Feargus, it turned out, sometimes had a tactic where if he disapproves of someone or is angry at someone, he micromanages them to an excruciating degree, calls out everything he objects to (not something that’s necessarily wrong, just something he objects to), and makes it very difficult to move forward on anything. I had seen hints of this indirectly, but never experienced it – it sometimes was employed as a way to get someone to resign without actually firing them. It mostly seemed like an extended form of punishment with no positive goal except to punish the person for some perceived failing.

So I agreed to take on the role, because the ones asking me genuinely seemed to need help, and I also foolishly thought that surely this couldn’t be the case. The project also seemed like it might be fun.

Within 2 weeks of the role, I realized the team was absolutely right, and the problem wasn’t limited to what was brought up to me – it was worse.

While being a buffer helped (slightly), the issue started coming up that Feargus would do sudden pivots on elements he had approved and the team had spent a lot of time on. He would also forget he approved them and would assume he hadn't when he saw a decision he (now) didn't like had been made.

I’m not sure I even classify these events as lies when they occurred because it involves memory and the old classic managerial “gut instinct,” but what I discovered is that elements I would fight for and the team wanted (starting with the story, which was being savaged just like DS3) would be given approval by Feargus when I asked, then he would forget he gave approval, and within a few days of me relaying the good news to the team, he would backpedal and say, “Why this story and not mine? I never approved that.” When confronted on the fact he had approved the change, it would then become, “well, it’s not how I feel today.”

When this occurred, I felt as if I had lied to the team and let them down – and the situation had been out of my control despite my best intentions.

Realizing I couldn’t manage if I didn’t get reliable approvals (it undermined anything I said or did), I stepped down.

The pitch died not long after, which was probably for the best. The core idea was sound, but the process was going to strangle the life out of it. More time and money wasted.

The “I don’t care what I approved, that’s not how I feel today” management retractions would happen a lot. It happened with Parker, too. I don’t care so much about managers changing their mind, but it was rarely communicated to the people who needed to know when they did – and you felt like you were about to walk into a trap you can’t even see coming every time you had a meeting. It would also be easier to take if it the dismisiveness of the decision didn’t also come with anger at the person relaying what had been asked for – and the messenger had no idea their manager no longer wanted it, because their manager had never communicated they had changed their minds and when they had changed their minds. It was like watching days, even weeks of work, spiral down the toilet.

Again, part of this is a manager’s right, but between Feargus and Parker, their management style would often be to ask for something, you’d plan it out, work on it, and then when they got exposed to what they’d asked for, they’d claim they never approved it.

When you took a risky move and said they had (and could prove it), their response would be, “well, it’s not what I want today.”

And I do say “risky move” in bringing up the facts of what they asked for because of what would happen when you did.

So, in an effort to fix this (my next mistake), I started relying more on email to track requests and get confirmation vs. face-to-face meetings (which I thought might be the problem, since no notes were taken so decisions could get clouded).

This tracking mechanism worked, but ended up being a mistake, since the facts ended up not being the issue.

The reason it was “risky” was because presenting facts and their actual request never went over well – they’d lose their temper because their change of mind was exposed, so the facts ended up being useless. (Parker once lost it when I asked when we were getting a designer on KOTOR2 that he had promised and was using exclusively for UI work, since it was past the date for the designer to move over to content assistance – and then told me despite what he had promised, this was simply the way it was now, and the designer I had planned for would simply not be available and I had best deal with it – and this blaming was for a plan I hadn’t even proposed, so I didn’t understand the rage.)

Managers can change their mind, that’s fine, but it’s rough when you plan ahead and your manager has changed their mind and doesn’t tell you. It’s more disempowering and chilling when you realize they don’t even know what they asked for or approved of - compounded with the feeling when you have to tell the team the bad news.

My opinion is “That’s not how I feel today” makes it impossible to plan for tomorrow.

 

[Fairfax]

Chris Avellone why did you think Aliens: Crucible being cancelled was a good thing?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah, the Stormlands story always seemed like bullshit to me. A contract with Microsoft for a new triple A IP meant for console launch, now this has to be an equivalent of catching a unicorn. You get to work with the newest hardware, you get to work with a publisher that is desperate for you to suceeed because they need a huge hit on launch to move boxes. And if you do a good job there's a good chance you end up spawning a multi-billion franchise. This is how fortunes are made, how do you go on and fuck that up, I'll never know.

 

[Fenix]

Are you retarded? Socialist thinking didn't just appear out of nowhere, Marx was influenced by ideas that were already festering before he was born and that includes the ideas that led to the French Revolution.

Regardless, I wasn't referring to the French Revolution but the social and cultural revolution that happened during the 20th century, that changed the still relatively traditional society of the early 20th century into the horrors that are modern societies especially in the West.

It seem you just can't contain yourself with that anti-communistic bullshit. Go find a corner for your shit, and be there complete autist as you are.
As for your supersonic maneuvers, I'm quoting you shithead

cultural and social revolution are products of Marxist thought

while it's clear that French bourgeois revolution is a social revolution.
So all your blames are false as usual - because you are autists of fine quality, because only autists can blame "communists" in anything after they long gone.

 

[Mikeal]

Azarkon said: ↑

I don't know how the Codex would feel about Sawyer leaving Obsidian. The emotions would be complicated.

Sawyer seems like a very nice guy. If what I'm reading about Obsidian is true, I'd feel happy for him. And I'd be curious to see what his historical turn-based RPG would turn out like.

It will be tactical spin-off of "Kingdom Come: Deliverance". That's why he met Vávra at that event.

 

[skacky]

Reading through some of your last posts Chris Avellone is quite the experience. Holy cow. I know I won't ever work at Obsidian.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

The Codex dilemma: the guy who wants sexy women in video games also wants bog-standard save-the-land storylines.

And yet, when Feargus finally manages to secure ownership of an IP that Obsidian has full creative control over (unlike all their previous games), we get this:

What happened to Pallegina? She used to look like Rihanna, now she looks like a dude.

 

[Infinitron]

Stepping up was dangerous and demoralizing, especially with Feargus. For all the games that got released, there were others on the never-got-made pile.

But dispensing with the vague answer, here's the specifics of one case, and why I became hesitant to be a lead at Obsidian again (not just South Park, but elsewhere).

After DS3, I did get asked to take on a Project Director role (for a potential sequel) not by Feargus - but because of Feargus.

The reason I was asked, however, was because of how Feargus was treating the team – for all the control he tried in DS3, it had upped in DS4, and the team came to me and asked if I would come on to be a buffer between them and Feargus, since they were finding a hard time getting approvals and getting work done. It ended up being a lesson that made me very hesitant to report to Feargus (even though I did in the last year at Obsidian).

Feargus, it turned out, sometimes had a tactic where if he disapproves of someone or is angry at someone, he micromanages them to an excruciating degree, calls out everything he objects to (not something that’s necessarily wrong, just something he objects to), and makes it very difficult to move forward on anything. I had seen hints of this indirectly, but never experienced it – it sometimes was employed as a way to get someone to resign without actually firing them. It mostly seemed like an extended form of punishment with no positive goal except to punish the person for some perceived failing.

etc etc

Did this sort of thing happen to Josh Sawyer on Pillars of Eternity?

If not, had you been the lead on Pillars of Eternity instead, do you think it would have happened to you?

 

[Fairfax]

By the way, this line has a different meaning now:

("checking the systems again")

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Chris Avellone Tell us more about Obsidian owner contract. Why Feargus seems to have more power than other owners? Have you consulted lawyer when you have signed owner contract back when Obsidian was being established? What was written in that clause in the document that let Feargus de-own you and not pay you any money?

 

[Lycra Suit]

As iciing on an otherwise dismal layoff day, after I had had to go through letting people go (who were not on Stormlands and had done nothing to contribute to its failure), I came back to report to the other owners, only to hear from Feargus that one employee he was going to let go was retained - our front desk receptionist, Feargus's sister. I still wonder to this day if that had meant I could have kept one of the employees we had who had an equivalent salary and was actually contributing to our projects, but I was too furious at the news to speak.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

When it started becoming apparent they were going to pull away, Feargus worked very hard to try and save that relationship, but it was too late. It was definitely not something Feargus wanted, however, but after the fact, he had little choice but to highlight the nobility of the studio's stance when the project was canceled, and arguably, the story also worked well for crowdsourcing messaging as it garnered a lot of sympathy (it's one reason the documentary video for the KS feels disingenuous).

From my view, it was not a case of a noble developer standing up to the big publisher even though that makes for a better story... the developer drove the publisher away, when that was the exact opposite of what upper management wanted to do (they wanted to do large, expensive AAA titles).

What happened to Pallegina? She used to look like Rihanna, now she looks like a dude.

SJWs happened.

 

[Abu Antar]

Chris Avellone As a co-owner, did you not have a say on projects that you were leading? Why does it seem like the other owners had more say than you?

Also, could you tell us a little bit more about more canceled projects? For example, 7 Dwarves.

 

[Chippy]

Constructive dismissal tactics from insecure managers :selfhate:I've decided to dedicate this song to Feargus Urquhart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjfr1nu3Go

As much as I consider myself to be a dumbfuck for supporting POE in restrospect, at least I didn't waste any time feeding back to Obsidian my ideas on making the game. I even gave them carte blanche with my item after that new writer (the chic) showed zero interest in the history I was trying to give it - they didn't even have the brains to steal the fucking ideas (soulbound weapon stealing moment of death from previous owner(s) and adding minor XP to character, etc). You can all say I'm a salty prick now.

 

[deepfire]

Chris Avellone, another question -- given the apparently strained past relationship between Tim and Feargus (as per the Tim's G@W interview), would you care to estimate, even if vaguely, the prospects of success/failure for Project Indiana?

Maybe you could also tell the story behind this.. apparently unlikely reunion..

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

they didn't even have the brains to steal the fucking ideas (soulbound weapon stealing moment of death from previous owner(s) and adding minor XP to character, etc).

Please elaborate.

 

[Jedi Exile]

Didn't read all of it (and hope Chris didn't violate NDA), but it seems to confirm my initial suspicion that Avellone left Obsidian not because of Sawyer (as some Codexers thought), but because of Urquhart. Which was more logical - usually you leave your job not because of a colleague you dislike (there are always some jerks around), but because you have problems with you boss (this is what I did several times, before I've found my current job). Feargus being not a very good manager also isn't a big surprise and it explains a lot about Obsidian games being a mess of cool, but poorly implemented, ideas.

What I very much dislike, is that Chris is still dwelling on this. Maybe after he finally talked about it in public, he will feel better and can concentrate on something constructive (like Bao-Dur, who wanted to design planetary shields after working on a bomb). The best way to deal with a big failure in life, is to create something good. If you are a writer, write a book. If you a game developer, make a game.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Yeah, the Stormlands story always seemed like bullshit to me. A contract with Microsoft for a new triple A IP meant for console launch, now this has to be an equivalent of catching a unicorn. You get to work with the newest hardware, you get to work with a publisher that is desperate for you to suceeed because they need a huge hit on launch to move boxes. And if you do a good job there's a good chance you end up spawning a multi-billion franchise. This is how fortunes are made, how do you go on and fuck that up, I'll never know.

It was exactly the opportunity many in the studio wanted (a good chunk of the upper management wanted to do an AAA game to make their mark and have said as much in interviews - I don't think you need to do it via AAA to make your mark, but I don't object to the sentiment to want to do so).

The Microsoft deal seemed to be a great way to have a solid foundation for once. It might be challenging, but it was worth fighting for.

However, the problems increased over time on both sides until Microsoft didn't want to deal with it anymore, and I didn't blame them.

I wouldn't even have minded us going our separate ways except there was no contingency plan in place for when it happened (although we were able to keep some team members - I do think a number of people who weren't responsible for what happened, inc. the Lead Producer and Lead Programmer, didn't deserve to be let go while others who had directly contributed to the problem got to stay).

Aliens was a bit more confusing, but one fact there is it's sometimes said the game was close to being done, which wasn't the case: it was at vertical slice stage (and a good one, I thought), then it got cancelled, but much of the full production work had not been done, it wasn't close to shipping or anything as some people assume.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Didn't Feargus say something to the effect of, a cRPG is bashing skeletons and collecting loot? Figures. (Paging resident autists for chapter and verse.)

That's closer to a definition of an RPG than anything we've ever came up with. Maybe that's how he put it in the non compete.

RPGs are about exploring dungeons, killing things, pain, and acquiring treasure.

I almost feel a strange new respect for Feargus. Almost.

 

[Fenix]

Welcome to the "Go See a Lawyer Now" party. Our initiation standards are pretty strict though .

I'm far from though that MCA not smart enough to not understand this. That mean, he know what he's doing.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone, another question -- given the apparently strained past relationship between Tim and Feargus (as per the Tim's G@W interview), would you care to estimate, even if vaguely, the prospects of success/failure for Project Indiana?

Maybe you could also tell the story behind this.. apparently unlikely reunion..

If you asked Tim, he could speak to it. I don't think there's anything that would jump out about it.

I have high hopes for Indiana, I trust Tim and Leonard (and Charlie, and Tyson, etc, etc. - they have a great team of folks I've worked with and think are great).

If anything happened with the project, I would be more inclined to suspect it was due to upper management decisions hurting the relationship with Take2 (directly - and indirectly, say by forcing the team to do something they disagree with or put something in a contract they don't feel comfortable delivering on - much like a second city in PoE1).

In the end, I just want to play a new Tim and Leonard game. : ) I respect them both as developers, and I cite many of the design elements they put in Fallout and their other games as great stepping stones for future RPGs (like Indiana itself).