Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Eric Fenstermaker on Pillars of Eternity​

[Cosmo]

Sure. And of course there's the fact that most developers create their own settings today, and when you create your own thing, Chekhov's Gun logic demands that you use every bit of it. In contrast, when you use somebody else's setting, you're already committed to a process of adaptation ("I really want to tell MY story, not these guys'"), so leaving stuff out comes naturally.

That and the incertainty and short-sightedness inherent to kickstarter projects : this Chekhov's Gun logic wouldn't have been so much of a problem if the project would have been conceived as a trilogy from the get-go.

By the way, Fenstermaker's Folly, is envisioning a hybrid budget for PoE2, part self-funded and part kickstarter (à la Original Sin 2), totally out of the question ?

 

[Haba]

Haba First you tell me (by your own admission) that yes, there were games that took you WEEKS (plural) to complete, but when i say months (ie anything over 4 weeks) you find fault. Ok
Leaving aside my exaggerating for emphasis.. Let's have some fun, one by one: How long did it take you to finish Wiz I? Cause it sure as fuck was month+ for me. And i did not finish it. Still haven't ^^

Yes, because the absolute longest I've ever played a game is measured in weeks, not months. And this is with excessive loading times and with dealing issues such as trying to solve riddles in foreign languages.

Wizardry on Commodore had horrible loading time issues, for example. I'm sure it is one of those games that went in the 100+ hours category. But grinding, endless backtracking and painstakingly mapping dungeons on grid paper are not features of "great game design". Not to mention artificial lengthening of the playthrough caused by technical issues.

 

[Prime Junta]

I'm not sure about the "smaller is better" thing actually. A game like Pillars has to be big and sweeping enough that you feel you lose yourself in the world. IWD was a great dungeon crawl but it didn't have that. If Pillars had been cut down to that size -- which would still have been quite respectable by modern standards -- something of value would have been lost.

Despite its shortcomings, they did manage to make a pretty damn big game with virtually no "bring me 30 buffalo horns" type quests. IMO the biggest problems weren't with the kinds of things that could've been addressed with more time and resources (er, other than the things they did improve with more time and resources, notably mechanical tuning), but with the way the time and resources were focused. Everyone hates the stronghold, with good reason (how come Tim Cain gets a free pass for that here by the way, given the vitriol everyone else gets for much smaller failings?), and the work that went into Od Nua should've gone into fleshing out Defiance Bay and Twin Elms.

I dig small, polished games too, but I think there is a special place for big, sweeping ones even if they're rough around the edges -- sometimes extremely rough. BG2 is pretty rough in places even after years and years of patching and modding; Fallout 2 is ridiculously broken in places, and let's not even get started on Arcanum -- yet all of these are what they are largely because they're so fucking huge, and the cost of all that size is the roughness.

 

[Infinitron]

Sure. And of course there's the fact that most developers create their own settings today, and when you create your own thing, Chekhov's Gun logic demands that you use every bit of it. In contrast, when you use somebody else's setting, you're already committed to a process of adaptation ("I really want to tell MY story, not these guys'"), so leaving stuff out comes naturally.

That and the incertainty and short-sightedness inherent to kickstarter projects : this Chekhov's Gun logic wouldn't have been so much of a problem if the project would have been conceived as a trilogy from the get-go.

lol, I like how something being "conceived as a trilogy" is considered normal now and not a mark of AAA/Hollywood-style excess. Fuck that, man.

I'm not sure about the "smaller is better" thing actually. A game like Pillars has to be big and sweeping enough that you feel you lose yourself in the world. IWD was a great dungeon crawl but it didn't have that. If Pillars had been cut down to that size -- which would still have been quite respectable by modern standards -- something of value would have been lost.

Despite its shortcomings, they did manage to make a pretty damn big game with virtually no "bring me 30 buffalo horns" type quests. IMO the biggest problems weren't with the kinds of things that could've been addressed with more time and resources (er, other than the things they did improve with more time and resources, notably mechanical tuning), but with the way the time and resources were focused. Everyone hates the stronghold, with good reason (how come Tim Cain gets a free pass for that here by the way, given the vitriol everyone else gets for much smaller failings?), and the work that went into Od Nua should've gone into fleshing out Defiance Bay and Twin Elms.

I dig small, polished games too, but I think there is a special place for big, sweeping ones even if they're rough around the edges -- sometimes extremely rough. BG2 is pretty rough in places even after years and years of patching and modding; Fallout 2 is ridiculously broken in places, and let's not even get started on Arcanum -- yet all of these are what they are largely because they're so fucking huge, and the cost of all that size is the roughness.

I can understand cutting the stronghold, but you do realize that Od Nua is part of what makes the game big, right

Speaking of which, if Fenstermaker's Folly still intends to post here, can he tell us more about the ideas behind the storyline of the Endless Paths? Was it meant to be a deliberate mirror of the main plot's big reveal? Coalescing lots of mortal souls to create a god vs fishing one soul out of the afterlife to bring back a mortal.

It's something I considered adding to the interview but it was too specific and idiosyncratic.

 

[Cosmo]

lol, I like how something being "conceived as a trilogy" is considered normal now and not a mark of AAA/Hollywood-style excess. Fuck that, man.

Again reading too much : that was just an example illustrating the fact that cramming a whole wiki worth of lore in a single game can raise questions of game design principles, but also more simply about the lenght of content you've got in mind at the beginning of the project.

 

[Infinitron]

Fair enough. Worth pointing out that Obsidian did actually create a bunch of lore that they didn't put in the game (see the Collector's Book). This is more of a general trend than an absolute thing.

 

[Prime Junta]

I can understand cutting the stronghold, but you do realize that Od Nua is part of what makes the game big, right

I do, but I would rather they had used the effort to make it to create more content for Defiance Bay and especially Twin Elms. I.e., the same amount of content but spread differently.

 

[Gord]

Imo the dungeon beneath the stronghold was/is mostly fine (although it could have used a bit more integration into the overall game) - but nothing much would have been lost had they removed the stronghold part top-soil (save for some token ruins to justify the existence of the lower levels) and kept the dungeons below.
I understand that they felt the need to include it since it was one of the more eagerly awaited stretch goals, but given the shape it shipped in, it would have probably been more sensible to at least postpone the entire stronghold part to the expansions.

Of course, given how bare-bones the stronghold already was, it's quite possible that it wouldn't have saved them that much time in the end.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

the Stronghold is a lot more interesting that it was on vanilla. We now have interesting events happen almost every 24 hours.

 

[MicoSelva]

Great interview that could be summed up as: 'PoE would have been better if we had more time and/or resources', which is not a big surprise. Hopefully the game (and expansion) sold enough for the sequel to have a bigger budget, that could also be boosted by another Kickstarter campaign.

However, I will not be backing it as high as I did with the original*, or even D1Ping it this time** - I will wait, for the reviews, opinions, and patches, while purposefully avoiding all information about the game*** - this way I will avoid burning out on it before it even appears, and enjoy it more.

Anyway, big to Fenstermaker's Folly , as I liked his answers a lot. Thank you.

*probably
**maybe
***hopefully

 

[Roguey]

It can take more with a small team, or less wit ha bigger team. The IE games themselves had very different development cycles.

You'd have to name a tangible RPG of similar scope with a smaller time frame. Baldur's Gate took about 3.5 years (specifically "90 man-years of work") and the team at its largest was 60 and it didn't try to do as much as Obsidian tried to do (number of classes, abilities, stronghold, actual role-playing etc.)

Future games took less time because they already had the foundation.

 

[Infinitron]

On the other hand, there are some things that don't work out for me. For example, if the 2nd main theme is the one you are suggesting, then I can't reconcile Grieving Mother's quest with either main themes.

Consider this - the story of the Grieving Mother is a story of a woman who set up a false reality, to provide an illusion of normalcy and keep herself safe. With her powers, she was almost like...a false god.

 

[Rivmusique]

I think the 2nd major theme is something to do with the importance/value of history/tradition vs forgetting/starting anew. It's a huge focus for the expansion main content, and I think the value of authority stuff sort of falls under the "assured of nothing" theme.

 

[Neanderthal]

Sometimes think folk like big arse games cause they become habitual, like it or not after puttin in whatever hours a day on Dildo Age V: Enter the Masturbatrix, its become a habitual part o your life an finishin it a big thing. Spent more time on some games than i've spent ating an feking, which is bloody tragic.

Infinitron: Just read Obs forum, that Gromnir blokes got a right stick up is arse about Codex ant e? Like your putdown, laughed me arse off.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

Great interview!
Since most of the acknowledged problems seem to stem from money and time: I have no solution for the money problem. But if there is any way to secure more funds / manage them differently, then why not just take all the time you need? Sure, it's good to have a deadline, but I'd really rather wait 2 years longer for a great game than having a lot of content cut because "there wasn't enough time".
And I really don't think I'm the only one there.

Welcome to the party, Eric!

Do devs have immediate brofist rights from day one btw.? I demand this!

 

[karfhud]

Great interview!
Since most of the acknowledged problems seem to stem from money and time: I have no solution for the money problem. But if there is any way to secure more funds / manage them differently, then why not just take all the time you need? Sure, it's good to have a deadline, but I'd really rather wait 2 years longer for a great game than having a lot of content cut because "there wasn't enough time".
And I really don't think I'm the only one there.

If they'd find a way to secure more funds - say, they Kickstart a portion of the budget and reach out to a publisher for the rest - then yes, they could extend the development time, but they'd also have to make a specific profit and in order to make that profit, they'd still have to face time/money constraints... it's an endless circle, really.

The truth is that not too many developers are as open about their development cycle as Obsidian has been on PoE's. Every dev company makes cuts, but you just don't hear about them as much.

 

[Decado]

Fenstermaker's Folly since you're posting here, what was the deal with the Godlikes? I like their crazy abilities, but they don't feel integrated into the game...

I created a death godlike that looked like an eyeless horned demon, which the game describes as "commonly killed at birth because many cultures consider them harbingers of doom", yet no one seemed to care. I walk into a religious & paranoid town, the ruler's son immediately dies and not a single person points fingers at me.

Hell, I don't know why would religious, god-fearing people ever casually call me "Godlike" instead of freak, demon, chupacabra or whatever. Fallout had that fun interplay of "smooth-skins, stupid tribals and mutated freaks" which helped make the world feel alive, but I think all the reaction I had in PoE was a little girl asking how I could see with no eyes...

What happened? You guys didn't want a race that would automatically make the world hate you, or was it just lack of monies & time?

This bothered me as well.

It felt very much like what happened in DA:O. Supposedly there was all this racism against elves, but if you actually play an elf, this supposed racism has no bearing on the game play beyond your origin story. I get what they were trying to do, but I wish developers would take the attendant complexity into account before "promising" stuff like this. I'm not accusing Obsidian of having promised anything, but to your point it is a bit jarring when lore contradicts actual mechanics.

 

[Decado]

Hey Fenstermaker's Folly, this is totally off topic but can Obsidian make a Star Trek RPG? Okay thanks for reading my post.

 

[ushas]

Fenstermaker's Folly since you're posting here, what was the deal with the Godlikes? I like their crazy abilities, but they don't feel integrated into the game...

I created a death godlike that looked like an eyeless horned demon, which the game describes as "commonly killed at birth because many cultures consider them harbingers of doom", yet no one seemed to care. I walk into a religious & paranoid town, the ruler's son immediately dies and not a single person points fingers at me.

Hell, I don't know why would religious, god-fearing people ever casually call me "Godlike" instead of freak, demon, chupacabra or whatever. Fallout had that fun interplay of "smooth-skins, stupid tribals and mutated freaks" which helped make the world feel alive, but I think all the reaction I had in PoE was a little girl asking how I could see with no eyes...

What happened? You guys didn't want a race that would automatically make the world hate you, or was it just lack of monies & time?

This bothered me as well.

It felt very much like what happened in DA:O. Supposedly there was all this racism against elves, but if you actually play an elf, this supposed racism has no bearing on the game play beyond your origin story. I get what they were trying to do, but I wish developers would take the attendant complexity into account before "promising" stuff like this. I'm not accusing Obsidian of having promised anything, but to your point it is a bit jarring when lore contradicts actual mechanics.

That's a good question. I haven't tried a godlike myself, though so far it doesn't seem matter whether Pallegina is on team or not. At least, does the godlike PC have some higher reactivity with companions?

I imagined if player is fire godlike, Durance may see the character as some cryptic message/hint from Magran, or so (especially if the PC is also Magran priest)...

On the other hand, if the story doesn't evolve around that and it wasn't possible to provide reactivity to the extend hinted by lore, as felipepepe and Decado pointed out, I would say that those would be the prime candidates for cutting. I mean it's interesting concept and everything (also fun for powergamers). But it's better to properly develop the core elements, than using resources to add and barely implement other ideas without proper integration and some consistency. I would definitely voted for less number of races in the base game, or classes, if that means more in depth integration of the remaining ones (there is some racism towards orlans going on, stuff around human-elf marriage, etc.).

Obsidian can always unfold ideas like playable godlikes in following games. Or I don't know, it can also be an expansion. While the additional story would evolve around some godlike-like stuff, whatever, the expansion can also introduce the possibility to play as a godlike character. So players would have more reasons to replay the base game again when the expansion is out. Provided, that the extended reactivity is sufficiently implemented so it yields to differently perceived adventure...


Btw, thanks for the interview. It's good to provide developers some breathing space to address criticism.

 

[M. AQVILA]

Main problems with PoE:

1. Dull setting (good settings take time to create)
2. Diluted highly mechanical classes (4 or 5 fleshed out classes would have been enough)
3. Lack of variety
4. Too much unnecessary combat
5. That yellow light on corpses with loot

 

[Infinitron]

I think one reason (or if not reason, at least an unintended advantage) of setting the game in a place like the Dyrwood is that Obsidian could plausibly handwave away ingrained traditional prejudices against godlikes and other races. It's a colonial area where all races mingle.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

That's a good question. I haven't tried a godlike myself, though so far it doesn't seem matter whether Pallegina is on team or not. At least, does the godlike PC have some higher reactivity with companions?

I imagined if player is fire godlike, Durance may see the character as some cryptic message/hint from Magram, or so (especially if the PC is also Magram priest)...

I'm a Moon Godlike Wael Priest, but as far as I remember there wasn't such a reaction from Durance or anything similar.
It's been a while since I played though, only recently picking up my late game save to enter The White March area.

 

[felipepepe]

It's a colonial area where all races mingle.

LOL, like all the colonial areas in world history, right? Like all the blacks, whites and natives mingled in colonial america, no prejudice whatsoever...

And that's skin color. I'm sure the acceptance for demi-gods that look like the ball sack of Beelzebub would be just as fine.

 

[Infinitron]

It's a colonial area where all races mingle.

LOL, like all the colonial areas in world history, right? Like all the blacks, whites and natives mingled in colonial america, no prejudice whatsoever...

And that's skin color. I'm sure the acceptance for demi-gods that look like the ball sack of Beelzebub would be just as fine.

On the other hand, colonial America was a place where different ethnicities like English, Dutch, Germans mingled in a way that they didn't in the old world. Or in your neck of the woods, Portuguese, Italians and Arabs. I guess the common factor is that they're all foreign-descended (not natives) and free men.

A fantasy setting can plausibly take the concept of ethnic differences melting away in a colonial society and ratchet it up to include racial differences as well.

That doesn't mean it's the right way to go in terms of design, or what the designers intended. But it is something.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Nah I don't really think you can explain it that way, they screwed up on this one, plain and simple. What they gonna need is a major retcon in the sequel concerning godlikes to somehow make it work.

The thing is, supposedly races are living together in almost all of Eoara's cultures, not only the Dyrwood. I like the concept quite a lot, something different from the usual fare. You might dismiss it as Sawyer's race-mixing SJW fantasy, but it reminds me of something I once read about the Germanic tribes, like the major ones (Franks, Goths) were more akin to federations made up of a diverse range of different ethnic tribes that shared the belief in a common (mythological) ancestor.

Meanwhile, the human-elf Aedyr Empire reminds me a lot of the way the English and Scotts built a common empire together.

With the exceptions of some aspects (e.g. The Godlikes) I thought the setting was one of Pillar's strongest points, though admittedly you have to read the collectors lore book to fully appreciate it.