Community RPG Codex People's Awards: Best RPGs

[Themadcow]

"Better" is always subjective anyway. I liked BG2 more than the Gold Box games. Does that makes it objectively "better"?

That's my main challenge to this article, is categorically states 'best' when the methodology isn't suited to that outcome. For my sins, my everyday job is a Research Director on survey projects so it kinda pains me to see.

 

[Infinitron]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

 

[CrustyBot]

That monocle'd troll handing out the prize ribbon ought to be an emoticon.

Looks more like a grizzled codexer shielding himself against the decline.

:rpgcodexthewarrior:

 

[SerratedBiz]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games, not because they are graphics whores/uneducated rabble.

Those are not mutually exclusive and you're not really in a position to judge the validity of the second statement for anyone besides yourself (and more than likely, one's assessment of his own opinions is partial, rather than not).

Making the case in support of this is equally trite, though, and I don't see what the point of this retarded discussion is. Codex not a bastion of monocled opinion but rather where people come together to talk about games from a certain era, to the point of having mostly displaced its previous occupants. Welcome to reality bros.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Many of the better classics still hold up today. For example, Wizardry 1 holds up a helluva lot better than Ultima 1. To me, Wizardry 4, Pool of Radiance, and Betrayal at Krondor have yet to be outdone in there respective fields, thus they are the few that belong on an all time list and near the top no less. In fact, I'd put all 3 of those ahead of the Black Isle/ Troika games. I'm not saying they were better at the time, I'm saying they are better altogether. I'm a bit of a storyfagger myslef, but I know some of the storyfagging here is a definite decline and ultimately created the decline to begin with since it places great emphasis on popamole and Larpfagging. Giood games are forever good games, just like good music or films. It all comes down to distinguishing between the real classics(Wizardry)and the flavor of a decade(Baldur's Gate).

 

[Trash]

Codex not a bastion of monocled opinion but rather where people come together to talk about games from a certain era, to the point of having mostly displaced its previous occupants. Welcome to reality bros.

It all boils down to me wanting you all to get off my lawn. And I want my youth back, whippersnapper.

 

[Themadcow]

Themadcow, I think Fallout 1 is a extremly solid, but short game, and although F2 is more rough around the edges, it provided me much more fun and playtime. Witch of them is "better"?

Whichever one you enjoyed more, on an entirely subjective basis.

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games, not because they are graphics whores/uneducated rabble..

People voted for them because they'd played them, and liked them. That is unequivocal fact. What is entirely incorrect is your assumption that the same people had even played the older games enough to form an opinion as to preference.

 

[felipepepe]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

You are saying that everyone that didn't vote for older titles simply didn't played them? Bro, I played many of them, that doesn't change the fact I prefer Fallout over World of Xeen, Arcanum over Darklands and Baldur's Gate over Pool of Radiance....

 

[Infinitron]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

You are saying that everyone that didn't vote for older titles simply didn't played them? Bro, I played many of them, that doesn't change the fact I prefer Fallout over World of Xeen, Arcanum over Darklands and Baldur's Gate over Pool of Radiance....

Not everyone, but most.

 

[Grunker]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

So how do guys like me, who played the older games, yet still voted for the games in this Top 10, fit in with your argument? Are we just exceptions to prove the rule? What's your basis for claiming that people who voted for Baldur's Gate haven't played the older games?

As far as I see it, I can point to actual posters who played older games yet voted for the newer ones. I'm not sure you can point to the people you're talking about; people who just played these games and never bothered with the older ones.

I guess neither one of us have any sort of basis for our claims, really, which is too bad. It's an interesting topic. Using hyperbole, we're discussing whether the Codex is truely critical compared to other sites, or whether we're just like the rest except 10 years behind. Basically, this:

Codex not a bastion of monocled opinion but rather where people come together to talk about games from a certain era, to the point of having mostly displaced its previous occupants. Welcome to reality bros.

I don't think that's true. Our reviews have higher standards (sad, but true), and even though I rant in the P:E-thread about the Codex being non-critical there, we're still way more critical of those kinds of games than the mainstream is by the games they're hyped about.

I don't see the Codex as simply someone who likes a different kind of game than the mainstream, I see us as a place with entirely different values.

 

[Yoshiyyahu]

Pretty good, bit of a shame to see PtD so low. Guess it's kinda expected, with all the bugs and shit. I was never really a big fan of blobbers, so I don't really rate them very highly. As for the older games, I did enjoy stuff like BaK and Dark Sun et al, but I dunno. Something just felt really dorky about the setting and dialogue and all that, at least when I compare it to Fallout.

Also many thanks for the console list, haven't played any of those so I've got a good bunch to try since I'm bored as hell these days.

 

[CrustyBot]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

You are saying that everyone that didn't vote for older titles simply didn't played them? Bro, I played many of them, that doesn't change the fact I prefer Fallout over World of Xeen, Arcanum over Darklands and Baldur's Gate over Pool of Radiance....

The thing is that the games weren't ranked according to some objective scale that relates to quality, we were given an opportunity to list our top RPGs and the ones with the most votes wins. That's not to say that Fallout is shit or anything. Simply that on the site, more people are familiar with games released during that time period. Whether that's because of age, etc, I don't know.

What I do know is that, as a result, having older games with less exposure and less accessibility (though things like GOG and emulators alleviate this problem) than the very popular IEs, Black Isle games, etc, skews the ranking.

In my case, for example, had this poll been conducted when I first came to this site, I hadn't played Star Trail, Blade of Destiny and Jagged Alliance 2 yet, all of which were games I voted for.

 

[Grunker]

It all comes down to distinguishing between the real classics(Wizardry)and the flavor of a decade(Baldur's Gate).

And how do you propose to do that? How do you prove someone like me - who played both Wizardry and Baldur's Gate, and still holds the latter surperior - wrong?

That's not to say that Fallout is shit or anything. Simply that on the site, more people are familiar with games released during that time period.

So how do guys like me, who played the older games, yet still voted for the games in this Top 10, fit in with your argument? Are we just exceptions to prove the rule? What's your basis for claiming that people who voted for Baldur's Gate haven't played the older games?

As far as I see it, I can point to actual posters who played older games yet voted for the newer ones. I'm not sure you can point to the people you're talking about; people who just played these games and never bothered with the older ones.

I guess neither one of us have any sort of basis for our claims, really, which is too bad. It's an interesting topic. Using hyperbole, we're discussing whether the Codex is truely critical compared to other sites, or whether we're just like the rest except 10 years behind.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Hah, if I'm not mistaken your first posts on the Codex back in 2010 were in a Mass Effect 2 thread.

Haha, I seem to remember that. Vaguely.

 

[Rake]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

So how do guys like me, who played the older games, yet still voted for the games in this Top 10, fit in with your argument? Are we just exceptions to prove the rule? What's your basis for claiming that people who voted for Baldur's Gate haven't played the older games?

As far as I see it, I can point to actual posters who played older games yet voted for the newer ones. I'm not sure you can point to the people you're talking about; people who just played these games and never bothered with the older ones.

I guess neither one of us have any sort of basis for our claims, really, which is too bad. It's an interesting topic. Using hyperbole, we're discussing whether the Codex is truely critical compared to other sites, or whether we're just like the rest except 10 years behind.

I think is a little of both. There are many who prefer Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian games from the oldies, while there are many that haven't played the old games. I for sure haven't played many of the older games.
From what i have played, i still prefer late 90' games over them. But i play BaK right now, and from what i see so far i would put this game in my top ten if we had another vote. I believe that if all people on the Codex had played all the games in that list, the voting would be different, but not so much. The top 5-6 would be propably the same.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker cannot into statistics. People on this site are more familiar on average with the newer games, so it was inevitable that they would get more points.

 

[Themadcow]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

So how do guys like me, who played the older games, yet still voted for the games in this Top 10, fit in with your argument? Are we just exceptions to prove the rule? What's your basis for claiming that people who voted for Baldur's Gate haven't played the older games?

As far as I see it, I can point to actual posters who played older games yet voted for the newer ones. I'm not sure you can point to the people you're talking about; people who just played these games and never bothered with the older ones.

I guess neither one of us have any sort of basis for our claims, really, which is too bad.

Nail on the head there Grunker, the methodology doesn't support an outcome (either way) that says that X game is better than Y game because it doesn't contain the data that would tell us whether the voter has experience of titles to make a subjective judgement that one is 'better'.

If we knew that the average Codexer rating of BG2 was 8.73 against a rating of 7.34 for Pools of Radiance, with those who hadn't played enough of either title not contributing to those ratings, then I'd be entirely comfortable with a statement that 'the Codex rates BG2 as better than PoR'. We simply don't have the data to support that kind of statement though.

 

[Grunker]

People voted for them because they'd played them, and liked them. That is unequivocal fact. What is entirely incorrect is your assumption that the same people haven't even played the older games and thus cannot form an opinion as to preference.

Changed your quote to indicate how the same fallacy can be applied to both of our arguments.

Grunker cannot into statistics. People on this site are more familiar on average with the newer games, so it was inevitable that they would get more points.

Grunker cannot into non-existing statistics, you mean. Or did you do a research project on this, because then you're right, you have a basis for your argument that I can't match. It's just that I haven't seen any statistics on this.

 

[felipepepe]

If we selected 10 monocled bros from various backgrounds & ages and asked them to rate RPGs based on a solid range of criterias, we would have what some people here seem to be asking for, but then it wouldn't be a "People's Award" anymore... it would be like the Top RPGs of the Decade, Codexers or Developers Award. And then we would have stuff like Diablo II as #5 RPG of the decade, or Tim Cain voting for Oblivion.... and butthurt would rage on.

 

[Surf Solar]

What is the point of such lists?

 

[Grunker]

People voted for these games because they liked them over older games

No, it was because they didn't play the older games. Whether or not that makes them "uneducated" is a matter for debate.

So how do guys like me, who played the older games, yet still voted for the games in this Top 10, fit in with your argument? Are we just exceptions to prove the rule? What's your basis for claiming that people who voted for Baldur's Gate haven't played the older games?

As far as I see it, I can point to actual posters who played older games yet voted for the newer ones. I'm not sure you can point to the people you're talking about; people who just played these games and never bothered with the older ones.

I guess neither one of us have any sort of basis for our claims, really, which is too bad.

Nail on the head there Grunker, the methodology doesn't support an outcome (either way) that says that X game is better than Y game because it doesn't contain the data that would tell us whether the voter has experience of titles to make a subjective judgement that one is 'better'.

Aha!

Well, then I'm right, and you're wrong

You guys made the claim that people here hadn't played the old games and were just voting for Baldur's Gate because that's what they'd played. I just said the possibility of them having played both and liking the latter more was just as possible.

 

[Trash]

I believe that if all people on the Codex had played all the games in that list, the voting would be different, but not so much. The top 5-6 would be propably the same.

Same here. There simply are a number of rpg's lower on the list that are much better as both rpg and game than some of those in the top 10. (opinion alert) However I think we can assume safely that the top three is something of a holy trinity of rpg gaming here. Wonder if we'll ever see any movement in that part of the list

 

[felipepepe]

What is the point of such lists?

The following pages of butthurt.

Something about helping newfags or causing butthurt at BSN as well, but no one really believes that...

 

[Lorica]

This list is why polls are awful. It'd be better if the commentators who did the write up all argued for their own top 10. Authority informed by reason excels democracy in all matters of taste. I would read that.

Then we throw them into an arena and have them fight naked to the death.

Oh, hi Trash and Grunker.

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron: The same logic you could use - more people have played Baldur's Gate and thus more people voted for it - I could use: "People who played the classics are more dedicated to the forums and thus more likely to vote, apparantly they agree with me that the current Top 10 list holds better games."

The truth is, we don't know, and any claim we make is purely based on our subjective notion of what the Codex is. I disagree that it's just a place for the Mainstream -10 years, and I think the standards we said for our content proves that.

This list is why polls are awful. It'd be better if the commentators who did the write up all argued for their own top 10. Authority informed by reason excels democracy in all matters of taste. I would read that.

We debated doing something like that, but it's a lot of work compared to this one. If someone was willing to do said work...

Then we throw them into an arena and have them fight naked to the death.

Oh, hi Trash and Grunker.

Trash has actual experience with physical Codex death-matches. Or at least, he almost had. I would surely be crushed under his Darklands-playing fists.