Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Monty]

And didn't people who backed get the beta anyway?

People who paid for beta access got the beta. Not the regular backers.

 

[Zeriel]

And didn't people who backed get the beta anyway?

People who paid for beta access got the beta. Not the regular backers.

Yeah, so they basically have delivered what they were supposed to, within reason. All I really meant is I don't see some massive betrayal on their part. More just a delay you'd expect of any game development project.

 

[Infinitron]

Er, I think you'll find that 'distributor' and 'publisher' means the same thing in this case, or you think happy elves will make the boxed copies and bitComposer will just be the postal service?

"Publisher" means they funded the development of the game, paid the developer's salaries. It's not about who prints the boxes. That falls within the category of distribution.

 

[Grunker]

"signed a deal" doesn't equal "they're publishing it", commie. Might as well mean they invested in the game, or indeed, what the update says: That they agree to publish the game in Germany if the game sells in English and Spanish. Remember that Conquistador has always had an investor. Now they have two.

Grunker.
Dude.

I am fully suspicious that the multiplayer was added on the request of the 'publisher'.

Tin-foil.

 

[commie]

Er, I think you'll find that 'distributor' and 'publisher' means the same thing in this case, or you think happy elves will make the boxed copies and bitComposer will just be the postal service?

"Publisher" means they funded the development of the game, paid the developer's salaries. It's not about who prints the boxes. That falls within the category of distribution.

Note also this:

First, the delay was because we were talking to bitComposer. Then the delay was because we were waiting to work things out with some major distributors

Now why mention bitComposer as separate from unnamed 'major distributors' if they are a distributor too? Note they aren't mentioned as 'other' distributors, just as if they were the only ones. I think it's a standard Freudian slip by a bunch of pathological liars.

Let me also give you a definition of 'publishing' from ol' Wiki though you could use any source:

Publishing is the process of production and dissemination of literature, music, or information — the activity of making information available to the general public

and

Publishing includes the stages of the development, acquisition, copy-editing, graphic design, production – printing (and its electronic equivalents), and marketing and distribution of newspapers, magazines, books, literary works, musical works, software and other works dealing with information, including the electronic media.

So yeah, I'm right. Publishing includes the production and distribution of a product.

 

[clemens]

Tin-foil.

 

[Infinitron]

commie Well, if you think they're flat out lying, there's not much else to discuss, is there?

 

[jagged-jimmy]

I think major complaint was about the very poor communication / poor planing. I, for one, do not care about TurdComposer (thanks commie) or delay. But this ambiguous information management is pissing me off.

 

[Grunker]

I think major complaint was about the very poor communication / poor planing.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but it's not the main complaint. Look at the thread. The main complaint is a conspiracy-theory about the reasons for the delay and the addition of multiplayer.

 

[Infinitron]

They've definitely behaved like a bunch of wide eyed amateurs here. A shittily told truth can be worse than a lie.

It's pretty simple. You do not say the word "publisher" on Kickstarter. You do not say the word "multiplayer" on Kickstarter. Especially not if you're a tiny project with a high percentage of pissed off hardcore gamer backers.

That's a problem with Kickstarter. The smaller guys who are most likely to need external assistance are also the ones with the backers most likely to oppose them getting that assistance.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

I think major complaint was about the very poor communication / poor planing.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but it's not the main complaint. Look at the thread. The main complaint is a conspiracy-theory about the reasons for the delay and the addition of multiplayer.

Yes, but this is it. If they would tell us "oh hey, we want to sign a deal with TurdComposer, so that's why we ..ehm.. gonna add multiplayer. We hope this will help us to sell more copies of the game. Of course, this will delay the game for about X months. Also TurdComposer said, that Steam Greenlight is for losers, so we will roll in with their help. Thank you for endorsing, but we won't require any help with that anymore."

Problem? IMHO, i would be back to business like nothing ever happened (i am not a backer though).

 

[Zeriel]

Yeah, there's something seriously ironic about that. The people who get enough funds on Kickstarter to possibly have a chance at doing things independently tend to be the ones who are already professionals.

 

[janjetina]

The question is whether the features (multiplayer and the publishing deal) that were not present in the original pitch are valid from the backers' perspective as the explanations for the delay. Patching the game to get rid of bugs would be a valid excuse. This, however, is not. What if they decide to add another unwanted feature (say, an online / social aspect) that would add another few months or years to development just because it appeals to the developers?

 

[Jaedar]

I think major complaint was about the very poor communication / poor planing.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but it's not the main complaint. Look at the thread. The main complaint is a conspiracy-theory about the reasons for the delay and the addition of multiplayer.

I refuse to buy this shit about "we added multiplayer on a whim". That is just impossible. No sane person does this at the last moment.

Who said it was done at the last moment?

It seems far more likely that they held off on revealing it and were intending it to be a nice surprise on launch, then the game got delayed and they announced it as an attempt to appease backers. Which backfired pretty badly, granted.

 

[tindrli]

Bottom line: we're getting no money from bitComposer, they're just helping us with distribution and marketing.

well seems like they are dooing a hell of a job!!!!!!!

 

[Kz3r0]

Yeah, there's something seriously ironic about that. The people who get enough funds on Kickstarter to possibly have a chance at doing things independently tend to be the ones who are already professionals.

No, it's the paradox of Kickstarter success, theoretically it's all about helping creative people to get in business, "My dream is to make games help me, if you pledge here a token of my appreciation.", but after Shafer and all the big names launching projects it has become essentially a pre-order system, ballooning by the millions in the process, this also helped the little guys to get unprecedented amounts of money but now backers are less inclined in just helping some starry eyed kid to work in the videogame industry instead of flipping hamburgers.

 

[Infinitron]

No, it's the paradox of Kickstarter success, theoretically it's all about helping creative people to get in business, "My dream is to make games help me, if you pledge here a token of my appreciation.", but after Shafer and all the big names launching projects it has become essentially a pre-order system, ballooning by the millions in the process, this also helped the little guys to get unprecedented amounts of money but now backers are less inclined in just helping some starry eyed kid to work in the videogame industry instead of flipping hamburgers.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? If they're getting unprecedented amounts of money then they are being helped.

 

[Western]

Yeah, there's something seriously ironic about that. The people who get enough funds on Kickstarter to possibly have a chance at doing things independently tend to be the ones who are already professionals.

No, it's the paradox of Kickstarter success, theoretically it's all about helping creative people to get in business, "My dream is to make games help me, if you pledge here a token of my appreciation.", but after Shafer and all the big names launching projects it has become essentially a pre-order system, ballooning by the millions in the process, this also helped the little guys to get unprecedented amounts of money but now backers are less inclined in just helping some starry eyed kid to work in the videogame industry instead of flipping hamburgers.

It's harder to trust the smaller guys funnily enough, it's just harder to imagine any of the midsize developers who've Kickstarted trying to do too much funny business. Some Indies who have has previous projects like Asylum and Barkley 2 do better as a result of trust as welli I think.

 

[Kz3r0]

No, it's the paradox of Kickstarter success, theoretically it's all about helping creative people to get in business, "My dream is to make games help me, if you pledge here a token of my appreciation.", but after Shafer and all the big names launching projects it has become essentially a pre-order system, ballooning by the millions in the process, this also helped the little guys to get unprecedented amounts of money but now backers are less inclined in just helping some starry eyed kid to work in the videogame industry instead of flipping hamburgers.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? If they're getting unprecedented amounts of money then they are being helped.

It's intended in the sense of an attitude, people now pledge for getting a product not for making a dream come true, obviously it's more easy to find people willing to 'buy' a product that people willing to promote the career of some random guy on the net.
Admittedly is not such a clear cut, for example the Codex is pledging in the name of the Incline, but for sure wants its games.

 

[Stelcio]

I'm one of the low-tier backers of this project so I don't get to play the game so far. Why shouldn't I be really pissed off?

I supported an independent project of a single player turn based RPG/strategy hybrid. What "independent" stands for may be:
- not related to evil publishers,
- not influenced by evil publishers.
These are freaking important issues as these kind of games - appealing to my refined tastes - aren't made precisely because of publishers' politics.

Now there is nothing wrong in delaying a game. Shit happens.

There's nothing wrong in implementing multiplayer either as long as it doesn't interfere the development of core game. Which isn't the case - STRIKE 1.

There's nothing wrong in delaying a game because of lots of recently discovered bugs. Which also isn't the case - STRIKE 2!

But it's UTTERLY WRONG to delay a game precisely because of getting in a deal with a publisher, no matter what kind of deal it is. Which IS the case! STRIKE 3, YOU'RE OUT!

They were not only dishonest to their Kickstarter supporters, they were actually disregarding them (us!) in favor of some publisher deal. That's a serious misbehavior and anyone disagreeing is either plain stupid or doesn't understand the idea of Kickstarter. If you went croudfunding route, then either respect your supporters and follow it all the way or face the nerd rage! Plain and simple.

 

[Infinitron]

They were not only dishonest to their Kickstarter supporters, they were actually disregarding them (us!) in favor of some publisher deal. That's a serious misbehavior and anyone disagreeing is either plain stupid or doesn't understand the idea of Kickstarter. If you went croudfunding route, then either respect your supporters and follow it all the way or face the nerd rage! Plain and simple.

There are all sorts of things on Kickstarter, though. You think Larian will distribute boxed copies of Divinity: Original Sin around the world all by themselves? No, they'll cut distribution deals. They just won't be as bumbling and blatant about it because they're professionals.

 

[Grunker]

What is this fucking retardation on my Codex? The problem was publishers financing games and having a say in them when they should just be distributing and boxing them.

Are people expecting these developers to personally put their games into a box and drive their dad's Fiat Punto around to venues to deliver boxed copies for sale?

We were paying these guys to 1) enable them to take risks/craft niche products and 2) to limit or do away with publisher influence on the actual game (especially with regards to DRM and shit). We're not fucking paying them to develop their own distribution networks.

They make the game I want I couldn't give less fucks about who puts the game in a shiny box and makes the deals with fucking Walmart or whatever to get them to carry the game.

 

[Dickie]

Q: Why did you --surreptitiously and without telling us-- removed the game from Steam Greenlight?

A: Because we'd been on there for months and we were going nowhere. There is no grand conspiracy, Greenlight doesn't work very well, at least not for a game like ours, and we saw no reason to stick around.

What does this even mean? If Age of Decadence can get Greenlit, anything is possible. Don't get me wrong, I like AoD, but it's not really designed to appeal to the masses. I'm really curious why any indie studio wouldn't want their game on Steam unless they signed a deal with some publisher saying it was forbidden. Getting on Steam seems to be the holy grail.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Come on guys, I think you are too much here into conspiracy theories. I asked Logic Artists at some point how well they were doing on Steam and they told me that it was not that good. They probably planned to release E: C themselves on smaller platforms like Desura and Gamersgate and if I knew they exact situation, I actually would recommend them talking to someone like bitComposer. The terms they describe in the update seem good and fair and while the communication could have been handled better, I think they did the right thing.

Steam is the biggest distribution platform and could be decisive of a financial success of a game. Now, if any of you were at the head of a company, who just realized that by your own means you won't get into Steam - would you go and try to get there through another distributor or a publisher? Yes, it means a lower royalty percentage on your income from Steam, but lower royalty is better than none (and with good marketing the actual money earned could be more that if you did it yourself) and I definitely would have made the choice they did. Now you can yell at me too I was warned about it last year when registerting here, I guess the time has come

Thanks to our Kickstarter supporters, to you guys, to many others our game (Legends of Eisenwald - thanks, Infinitron to remind include the name) is right now at place #11 at Greenlight so there is a good chance we will be greenlit soon. I am happy and proud about this but at the same time I am relieved that we don't have to face a choice like Logic Artists and our delay by now is longer than what they had. I am actually impressed they almost finished the game already, I wish I could say about our game the same thing.

About adding a multi-player. In a hypothetical situation someone would request me to do a multiplayer now, I'd say our game would be delayed by a year or longer. Why? Because the game engine and tools are not made for multi-player and none of the game design solution included something like this. So, if they are adding a multiplayer, they probably planned it quite some time ago and implemented at least support for it. In indie game development adding multi-player in a month? This is just undoable... I don't know their exact situation but my guess would be that they implemented multi-user support from the beginning with a thought that if they have some spare time, they would add it. It obviously depends on the multi-player scope but that's what I think.

Our next big update is in the works, we will talk about delay too, prepare your tough words, gentlemen!

 

[Infinitron]

Q: Why did you --surreptitiously and without telling us-- removed the game from Steam Greenlight?

A: Because we'd been on there for months and we were going nowhere. There is no grand conspiracy, Greenlight doesn't work very well, at least not for a game like ours, and we saw no reason to stick around.

What does this even mean? If Age of Decadence can get Greenlit, anything is possible. Don't get me wrong, I like AoD, but it's not really designed to appeal to the masses.

I think Age of Decadence benefited from being one of the very first RPGs to appear on Greenlight. It got a head start. Plus, it was known about in the gaming community for years before appearing on Greenlight, including some notorious RPS interviews. Another thing is that it's so similar to the original Fallouts that I think almost every Fallout fan on Greenlight voted for it on sight.

Aterdux Entertainment For anybody who doesn't remember, these are the Legends of Eisenwald guys.