Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Kosmonaut]

I still don't get why my questions were labeled as troll questions by DerpicArtists.

Edit: Jesus, Butthrunker defending his compatriots no matter what.

 

[Grunker]

defending Twitcher to the last breath

wat

 

[Stelcio]

All was already said by VD, Grunker. Maybe it isn't big deal for you that they pushed the release because of the publisher/(edit)distributor/whatever business but it is for some other folks including me.

Maybe you pledge just to support some idea behind the projects and the developers. I actually want to play these games. They got my trust, my money precisely because I wanted to play the freaking game! And now I can't because $$$ on the horizon. That's actually a very important issue that VD raised. They didn't have to get into this deal, it wasn't crucial for their surviving. They could get greenlit later. But they still decided to ditch their backers, those who trusted them initially, and delay the release. How fair is this? I'd say very unfair.

If they get to make any other games in the future, I may get to buy them. But they won't get a broken penny from me on Kickstarter anymore. It's about principles.

 

[Infinitron]

Regarding Steam Greenlight: Apparently they were getting 50/50 in terms of upvotes and downvotes, so they really weren't going anywhere.

Honestly, I'm kinda glad it got delayed because if it had been released everyone would be complaining about bugs instead.

Downvotes don't matter. They don't affect anything.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, I definitely would love to get some advise on marketing effort. We wrote press releases, contacted many sites, and response so far has been not so big.

Nobody cares or wants to see a press-release from some indie company. You want interviews - a chance to address the site's audience and impressions. Contacting sites is like selling door-to-door. They get hundreds of inquires a day and simply throwing another one on top of that pile will get you nowhere unless you're really lucky. Instead you should try to develop relationships and approach it in a more personal way. Not "here is our press-release, post it asap, my good man."

Partially, that is probably result of the state of our game (which is still raw in some aspects). But in general - it's not so easy to get press write about you. Now, with the Greenlight campaign, I feel like it's Kickstarter all over again. None of the big sites wants to write about us and it's actually them who create the biggest influence.

Start small. You don't get to fuck a model the moment you hit puberty, you work your way up. Same here.

About releasing the game to backers when it's ready. Again, the question is how. Creating your own distribution through your web site could be tough. Most of the projects promise to distribute through some platform not because they are lazy, but because making an extra version means more testing, more everything. So, for example, in my opinion GOG is best for DRM-free distribution of copies of the game. But again, the release of the game is best when it's simultaneous on all plaftorms, it creates then more media attention.

An indie developer should care first and foremost about his core audience not media attention. If the core audience is happy, the developer will survive. If not...

Is there a way for a indie studio to release your game ahead of release date at GOG to backers? I don't know, to be honest.

There is a way for everything. Sure, every portal would try to force their terms on you, but it doesn't mean that you have to take what's offered. We asked for changes in all 3 agreements.

So, if the deal with the KS backers is taken seriously by the developer, it will be taken seriously by everyone else. Not to mention that the deal to get on Steam, should have been limited to just Steam (i.e. they should have released it on GoG and GG too). Not to mention that the acceptable reply to a publisher's request to add MP is 'fuck off'. No, the publisher wouldn't have left because the publisher gets a hefty cut for nothing (for having connections, basically), which means that the publisher wants this deal a lot more than the developer, which means that the developer has all the leverage here.

 

[Commissar Draco]

If they get to make any other games in the future, I may get to buy them. But they won't get a broken penny from me on Kickstarter anymore. It's about principles.

Trust like virginity can be lost once like we in Potato say: ''kurwa pozostanie kurwą'' Also VD is hardcore Ein Mann Ein Vort Man.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

They could get greenlit later. But they still decided to ditch their backers, those who trusted them initially, and delay the release. How fair is this? I'd say very unfair.

Yes, they could get greenlit later. The question is when? A year, two from now or when? Dream fall chapters got into top 10 already, yes, for them it's no issue to be greenlit, their past achievments work for them. But for a small indie studio to get greenlit is not a simple issue. I think in their situation they probably wouldn't have got to top 10 for the next year or so. In the worst case, they would stay somewhere in the 2nd half of top100 when new projects would continually overpass them.

We got to place #11 not because of much marketing lately, but because games were greenlit ahead of us and not too many got more votes than us. If you are somewhere around place 70-80, this would just last too long. And the question again - how do you keep a studio running when there are no sales during all this time? How do you repay your investors. They made their decision and they had to consider much more information in order to make it. And I don't think delay is because of any external source here. If you make a game and then go find another carreer, then it truly doesn't matter how you release your game. But if you want to keep your personal and keep your studio running, you have to make sure financial part is taken care of...

And by the way, it's not the percentage at Greenlight that counts, the overall amount of Yes votes is what determines your ranking.

 

[Grunker]

All was already said by VD, Grunker. Maybe it isn't big deal for you that they pushed the release because of the publisher/(edit)distributor/whatever business but it is for some other folks including me.

Maybe you pledge just to support some idea behind the projects and the developers. I actually want to play these games. They got my trust, my money precisely because I wanted to play the freaking game! And now I can't because $$$ on the horizon. That's actually a very important issue that VD raised. They didn't have to get into this deal, it wasn't crucial for their surviving. They could get greenlit later. But they still decided to ditch their backers, those who trusted them initially, and delay the release. How fair is this? I'd say very unfair.

If they get to make any other games in the future, I may get to buy them. But they won't get a broken penny from me on Kickstarter anymore. It's about principles.

uuuh, so dramatic!

Of course I want the games I pledge to. And I'm going to get this one. If they delay it for 6 months I'll get seriously worried. A short delay like this? Look at your posts: Most of you are just speculating wildly as to their motives and secret conspiracies.

You're calling what is now a 2 month delay "ditching their backers." This is melodramatic to the point where it isn't even funny.

If we aren't more risk-willing, patient and allow for more creative room than the average AAA publisher, then there is no hope for Kickstarter as a long-term model of financing niche video games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, the KS promises mean nothing to you?

Hyperbole of the worst kind. A counter-question just a stupid would be: "So delaying a game a bit constitutes complete betrayal to you?"

Why do you see a KS promise as a hyperbole of the worst kind? Seriously?

The whole fucking idea of KS is to appeal directly to your potential audience and get them to pay you to make a game for them, without publishers and middlemen of any kind. Any deviation from this agreement constitutes dickery, regardless of whether or not it's intentional, because it certainly looks like they get people to pay for the development and then took the game to a publisher.

 

[Grunker]

So, the KS promises mean nothing to you?

Hyperbole of the worst kind. A counter-question just a stupid would be: "So delaying a game a bit constitutes complete betrayal to you?"

Why do you see a KS promise as a hyperbole of the worst kind? Seriously?

Why do you see a two-month delay as complete betrayal of a KS promise? Seriously?

Fuck off. A KS promise isn't completely betrayed by a, so far, two-month delay. Hence my counter-question. Look at the bolded text in my latest post. Us being even more prissy than the average publisher is going to doom this fucking model before it even gets out the door.

The whole fucking idea of KS is to appeal directly to your potential audience [...] without publishers and middlemen of any kind.

No it isn't. It's funding risky and niche video games.

 

[Grunker]

Ah, good, Grunker has finally embraced the spirit of potatos defending Twitcher to the last breath

I paid for those snacks myself

 

[Vault Dweller]

All was already said by VD, Grunker. Maybe it isn't big deal for you that they pushed the release because of the publisher/(edit)distributor/whatever business but it is for some other folks including me.

Maybe you pledge just to support some idea behind the projects and the developers. I actually want to play these games. They got my trust, my money precisely because I wanted to play the freaking game! And now I can't because $$$ on the horizon. That's actually a very important issue that VD raised. They didn't have to get into this deal, it wasn't crucial for their surviving. They could get greenlit later. But they still decided to ditch their backers, those who trusted them initially, and delay the release. How fair is this? I'd say very unfair.

If they get to make any other games in the future, I may get to buy them. But they won't get a broken penny from me on Kickstarter anymore. It's about principles.

uuuh, so dramatic!

Of course I want the games I pledge to. And I'm going to get this one. If they delay it for 6 months I'll get seriously worried. A short delay like this? Look at your posts: Most of you are just speculating wildly as to their motives and secret conspiracies.

You're calling what is now a 2 month delay "ditching their backers." This is melodramatic to the point where it isn't even funny.

If we aren't more risk-willing, patient and allow for more creative room than the average AAA publisher, then there is no hope for Kickstarter as a long-term model of financing niche video games.

It's not. About. The delay.

If they needed more time (and as you know I certainly felt that the game would have benefited from more time in development) to work on the game, it would have been a different story. But they said that the game was ready to ship in a few days when you spoke to them and then delayed the release to chase a publishing deal.

So, again, it's not about the fact that the game got delayed (happens all the time and hardly worth talking about) but why it got delayed.

 

[Grunker]

All was already said by VD, Grunker. Maybe it isn't big deal for you that they pushed the release because of the publisher/(edit)distributor/whatever business but it is for some other folks including me.

Maybe you pledge just to support some idea behind the projects and the developers. I actually want to play these games. They got my trust, my money precisely because I wanted to play the freaking game! And now I can't because $$$ on the horizon. That's actually a very important issue that VD raised. They didn't have to get into this deal, it wasn't crucial for their surviving. They could get greenlit later. But they still decided to ditch their backers, those who trusted them initially, and delay the release. How fair is this? I'd say very unfair.

If they get to make any other games in the future, I may get to buy them. But they won't get a broken penny from me on Kickstarter anymore. It's about principles.

uuuh, so dramatic!

Of course I want the games I pledge to. And I'm going to get this one. If they delay it for 6 months I'll get seriously worried. A short delay like this? Look at your posts: Most of you are just speculating wildly as to their motives and secret conspiracies.

You're calling what is now a 2 month delay "ditching their backers." This is melodramatic to the point where it isn't even funny.

If we aren't more risk-willing, patient and allow for more creative room than the average AAA publisher, then there is no hope for Kickstarter as a long-term model of financing niche video games.

It's not. About. The delay.

If they needed more time (and as you know I certainly felt that the game would have benefited from more time in development) to work on the game, it would have been a different story. But they said that the game was ready to ship in a few days when you spoke to them and then delayed the release to chase a publishing deal.

So, again, it's not about the fact that the game got delayed (happens all the time and hardly worth talking about) but why it got delayed.

And what's the problem there? Surely you're not buying in to wild speculations and conspiracies that multiplayer got added because of bitComposer?

If the delay isn't the problem, then what the fuck is? There is no issue here. You'll get the studio's best attempt at delivering the game they promised, and that's what fucking matters here.

The. Game.

 

[Kz3r0]

I paid for those snacks myself

Really, did you have to pay even to play the game?

 

[Stelcio]

You'll get the studio's best attempt at delivering the game they promised, and that's what fucking matters here.

Well I am certainly not getting the studio's best attempt at delivering the game TO ME even though I'm one of their most dedicated supporters, kickstarting supporters to be precise. That's the fucking issue!

 

[Grunker]

I paid for those snacks myself

Really, did you have to pay even to play the game?

Actually I didn't even pledge to the campaign, so they haven't got a single cent from me

You'll get the studio's best attempt at delivering the game they promised, and that's what fucking matters here.

Well I am certainly not getting the studio's best attempt at delivering the game

The game has been cancelled? Seriously?

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, the KS promises mean nothing to you?

Hyperbole of the worst kind. A counter-question just a stupid would be: "So delaying a game a bit constitutes complete betrayal to you?"

Why do you see a KS promise as a hyperbole of the worst kind? Seriously?

Why do you see a two-month delay as complete betrayal of a KS promise? Seriously?

Fuck off. A KS promise isn't completely betrayed by a, so far, two-month delay. Hence my counter-question. Look at the bolded text in my latest post.

Don't be dense. Delaying a game to make it better is one thing. Delaying a game that's ready to ship and denying to people who paid for it, paid for the development, just to add some irrelevant features that some douchebag publisher insists on looks bad. You think it's cool. Sure. Most people don't.

The whole fucking idea of KS is to appeal directly to your potential audience [...] without publishers and middlemen of any kind.

No it isn't. It's funding risky and niche video games.

Yeah, like the new MMO game. Risky and niche.

You ask people to fund your game, whatever your fucking game is. By doing so, you're bypassing the middlemen, and dealing directly with your target audience. They pay for the development, they get a DRM-free copy of the game and some goodies. That's the contract. Delaying the game to make better or just needing more time is ok. If Fargo delays WL2, I won't say a fucking word because it would be understandable. Sitting on a ready game while working on ways to sell it to other people, people who didn't pay for the development, people who didn't give a shit is fucking dickery.

 

[Zeriel]

That $15 DEMANDS utter compliance with previous statements. Logic Artists, you're on notice.

 

[Kosmonaut]

The whole fucking idea of KS is to appeal directly to your potential audience [...] without publishers and middlemen of any kind.

No it isn't. It's funding risky and niche video games.

o_O Appealing directly to the customers and skipping publishers is one of the better ways to make niche videogames.

 

[Grunker]

just to add some irrelevant features that some douchebag publisher insists on looks bad

Oh, so you are one of the conspiracytards. Nevermind then, our debate so far has been completely irrelevant.

Yeah, like the new MMO game. Risky and niche.

Yes? I have many friends who are avid and "hardcore" MMO-players (terrible creatures). According to them Camelot Unchained fills up an extremely dry market right now. Everything else being produced is themepark MMOs. This game doesn't even have PvE.

If Fargo delays WL2, I won't say a fucking word because it would be understandable. Sitting on a ready game while working on ways to sell it to other people, people who didn't pay for the development, people who didn't give a shit is fucking dickery.

There is no issue, so you have to make one up. You yourself say that two months delay isn't an issue, so there is none. All there is some perceived grievance caused by a hypothetical "contract breach" and a conspiracy-theories that bugfixing and multiplayer was required by the publisher.

The most simple explanation is often correct. The game being delayed in an effort to find the best means of distribution is a simple explanation and, indeed, the one given by the developers. They can probably only get these deals by waiting to release the game. If they get better distribution, they sell more copies, they are more succesful, we get better and more games in our niche.

Why this is so incomprehensible to you I have no clue.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Nobody cares or wants to see a press-release from some indie company. You want interviews - a chance to address the site's audience and impressions. Contacting sites is like selling door-to-door. They get hundreds of inquires a day and simply throwing another one on top of that pile will get you nowhere unless you're really lucky. Instead you should try to develop relationships and approach it in a more personal way. Not "here is our press-release, post it asap, my good man."

Thank you, we not only send press releases but trying different things, so far no big luck. I know we have to be more creative in promotion, but again, how do you develop relationships in a more personal way? Somebody hook me up I know personally only a few journalists...

Start small. You don't get to fuck a model the moment you hit puberty, you work your way up. Same here.

Same as on KS - 1 big site review is probably worth 50 small ones... We've got some press coverage but their effect wasn't clearly showing on our Greenlight campaign. I am not complaining here, I am just trying to point out that marketing is not such an easy thing, and we are actually working with a marketing agency...

An indie developer should care first and foremost about his core audience not media attention. If the core audience is happy, the developer will survive. If not...

Well, let's look at numbers. Out of 2700+ KS backer plus some preorders 1500 people installed Legends of Eisenwald. According to our polls in the forum, 100 people probably played it actively. Many people just downloaded beta to see if we are doing anything. What is our core audience then? It's a pity but the hard truth is that unfortunately we don't have one that plays the game who we can keep happy. We have a core audience waiting for the game, true. And the communication is the key here. But any game would definitely benefit from more media exposure. Not just from core audience...

There is a way for everything. Sure, every portal would try to force their terms on you, but it doesn't mean that you have to take what's offered. We asked for changes in all 3 agreements.

We are talking already too and asking for changes, which is not always simple. I didn't write about to say that it's difficult or impossible, I wanted to point out that all these activities take effort. And if you are dealing with too many things, you might not be able to figure out this one too.

So, if the deal with the KS backers is taken seriously by the developer, it will be taken seriously by everyone else. Not to mention that the deal to get on Steam, should have been limited to just Steam (i.e. they should have released it on GoG and GG too). Not to mention that the acceptable reply to a publisher's request to add MP is 'fuck off'. No, the publisher wouldn't have left because the publisher gets a hefty cut for nothing (for having connections, basically), which means that the publisher wants this deal a lot more than the developer, which means that the developer has all the leverage here.

Again, adding multiplayer when the game is ready is sort of a fantasy. If it wasn't planned before and some things were not put in place already, this is simply impossible to do in a short period of time.

 

[Stelcio]

The delay isn't the issue. The way they treat their backers is.

Is that simple enough, Grunker?

 

[Captain Shrek]

Again, adding multiplayer when the game is ready is sort of a fantasy. If it wasn't planned before and some things were not put in place already, this is simply impossible to do in a short period of time.

This is exactly where my gripe is. Since I remember some bullshit about how they decided it on the spot.

 

[Grunker]

The delay isn't the issue. The way they treat their backers is.

In other words: Communication. Oh look, I've stated since the beginning they had horrible communication.

 

[Stelcio]

In other words: Communication. Oh look, I've stated since the beginning they had horrible communication.

Nope, they had terrible interaction. They didn't DO anything to compensate for the delay even though they could. If they had released the game for all backers, could it be the beta for the sake of ongoing talks with bitComposer, there would be no issue. I see no reason not to do this. But they still decided that no matter what, Steam release is more important than staying loyal to their backers even though they admitted the game is ready.

I don't know what you mean by horrible communication. If you imply that their mistake was in unsuccesful attempt to conceal their real intentions behind delaying the game then /thread.