Editorial RPG Codex Report: PAX East 2015, or How Chris Avellone Called the Codex Unprofessional

[tuluse]

Ignore what he says about grogs or how you should have fun. Funnily enough - one of his favourite games is Ars Magicka which is really simulationist/groggy.

IIRC, he likes super simulationist stuff, just not half measures.

 

[Sensuki]

tuluse There are actually LOTS of half-measures in Pillars of Eternity. Attributes are not simulationist, but many other things are (such as what skills character backgrounds give, the DR types of armor) and those actually cause problems with the design - such as slash damage being fairly useless, or at least, usually worse than crush and pierce pretty much all the time.

 

[Perkel]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design.
Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ?

Mirror mirror tell me..

 

[SausageInYourFace]

do they want it widely known that they routinely post in threads packed with 'swastikas', 'kfc' and' jewgoldz'? I mean, we're used to all this stuff and the lack of moderation but I can imagine if they were working on something for a publisher the pr types would have a fit. It's sometimes easy to forget how different this place is to other game forums.

This. And it is probably exactly what will happen one day. Some video games news page (most likely with SJW tendencies) will turn that into a story. While I think its cool that some devs post here I certainly can't blame them if they don't, and its certainly not only because they can't handle the banter (even though thats probably another big reason).

Imagine a page like Kotaku would have written an nice big article about how an RPG forum raised .. what was it? 10k? for Div:OS with a few screenshots from devs posting here combined with certain retarded GD threads or

Spoiler

It would be impossible to explain that with 'its all in good fun!', 'all part of the board culture!'. It would just be a complete PR disaster for that dev.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Even mentioning the Codex or giving the moderators a hint that you might be a Codexer was enough to merit a ban from the old Elder Scrolls forums. When Obsidian was working with Bethesda they were probably under guidance to avoid the Codex, and now they are free of that yoke.

 

[crawlkill]

ah yes, the yoke of not being exposed to this festering, reactionary pit of nerdbro bile.

what a cross to bear.

 

[Sceptic]

Why does MCA look so fabulous

Some age, MCA matures.

 

[J_C]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design.
Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ?

Mirror mirror tell me..

Or, civilized men don't like to be called retarted, idiot, popamole or a piece of shit by an edgy 20 year old. Also, all the negativism can really ruin your hobby if you take it too seriously. And before you ask, sure, if they came here by their real name they would be taken seriously, but lets not kid ourself. If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

 

[Athelas]

You sound like you're speaking from experience.

 

[torpid]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design.
Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ?

Mirror mirror tell me..

Or, civilized men don't like to be called retarted, idiot, popamole or a piece of shit by an edgy 20 year old. Also, all the negativism can really ruin your hobby if you take it too seriously. And before you ask, sure, if they came here by their real name they would be taken seriously, but lets not kid ourself. If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

Lots of exaggerating, I feel. Hell, this thread is a perfect counterexample: everyone's falling over themselves to praise the devs and barely a troll in sight, only an autist or two. Even in the PoE threads I'm pretty sure most people would turn nice once an actual dev showed up. And if MCA posted here with an alt account and said he liked FO3, what's wrong with him getting laughed at? MCA is a great guy, but that's still a crappy opinion . And like you said, if they posted with their real names they would get a lot of leeway -- all of a sudden liking FO3 would be a lot more acceptable if MCA came here and said so.

I think they don't post simply because it's convenient. Why post and get into arguments when you can just read and choose what criticism you take into account?

 

[crawlkill]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design.
Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ?

Mirror mirror tell me..

Or, civilized men don't like to be called retarted, idiot, popamole or a piece of shit by an edgy 20 year old. Also, all the negativism can really ruin your hobby if you take it too seriously. And before you ask, sure, if they came here by their real name they would be taken seriously, but lets not kid ourself. If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

There's a difference between being -worried- about doing something and not -wanting- to do something. The internet is full of people being flayed by communities not much crazier than this one for daring to be public figures and make themselves known. Do you really think they find it uplifting or useful to read the uninformed rage of a bunch of grognards who post blind negativity about games they proudly screech about refusing to play (and then just as proudly inform us all they've pirated)? How does that improve a day? What this forum would claim is "dialogue" is just a bunch of people recycling opinions over and over with no justification other than their own personal preferences. As J_C says, this community by and large has nothing to offer them. At our best, we criticize things for being badly-written, underdesigned, lazy, corporatized, none of which is helpful as anything other than a valve for our disappointment. Most of the time, we don't even get that far.

After what happened to Sarkisian, I don't know why anyone would ever want to appear anywhere online wearing anything but a mask ever again.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

After what happened to Sarkisian

She got rich?

 

[Lurker King]

If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

As he should be, since he would be making a fool of himself. Why? Do you think that being a famous developer gives someone a blank check to compromise with shitty games in public? Developers not only need to take responsibility for their opinions about games as every player does, but they should know better than most hardcore players. They make games for a living, for fucks sake. Of course, at the end of the day they are just people and make mistakes, like everybody else.

 

[torpid]

After what happened to Sarkisian, I don't know why anyone would ever want to appear anywhere online wearing anything but a mask ever again.

thatescalatedquickly.jpg

 

[J_C]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design.
Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ?

Mirror mirror tell me..

Or, civilized men don't like to be called retarted, idiot, popamole or a piece of shit by an edgy 20 year old. Also, all the negativism can really ruin your hobby if you take it too seriously. And before you ask, sure, if they came here by their real name they would be taken seriously, but lets not kid ourself. If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

Lots of exaggerating, I feel. Hell, this thread is a perfect counterexample: everyone's falling over themselves to praise the devs and barely a troll in sight, only an autist or two. Even in the PoE threads I'm pretty sure most people would turn nice once an actual dev showed up. And if MCA posted here with an alt account and said he liked FO3, what's wrong with him getting laughed at? MCA is a great guy, but that's still a crappy opinion . And like you said, if they posted with their real names they would get a lot of leeway -- all of a sudden liking FO3 would be a lot more acceptable if MCA came here and said so.

I think they don't post simply because it's convenient. Why post and get into arguments when you can just read and choose what criticism you take into account?

I'm just a regular forum goers, and even I can get tired of arguments where I state something about the game I like, and others state the opposite. We go back and forth, waste hours of our life, and in the end, nobody could convince the other about it. These can be interesting arguments, but I rarely see people changing their mind about their favourite games, design decisions on the Codex. Many people here just argues for the sake of arguing. What would the devs gain from these arguments? Nothing. They are better off just reading the feedback about their games, rather than participate in heated arguments which don't lead to anywhere.

Lets just take a look at Sawyer's design decisions, which he talked about a lot at different forums. What do we do? We talk a lot about it, but these conversations boil down to hating these decision. Not by everybody, but many. So what would Sawyer gain by coming here and repeating the same things he already talked and which the Codexers hated all the time.

 

[J_C]

If MCA comes here with a different name and say that he likes Fallout 3, he would be ridiculed out of the Codex.

As he should be, since he would be making a fool of himself. Why? Do you think that being a famous developer gives someone a blank check to compromise with shitty games in public? Developers not only need to take responsibility for their opinions about games as every player does, but they should know better than most hardcore players. They make games for a living, for fucks sake. Of course, at the end of the day they are just people and make mistakes, like everybody else.

No. People could tell him that they think it is a shitty game, that it was dumbed down in their opinion etc. But what would happen on the Codex:
Wow ACM, you are retarded. Ban ACM for having a shit taste in gaming.(ACM: but I think it is well written and has interesting missions) What the fuck, are you mentally handicapped, stupid newfag. Oh Join date: 2015. 03. 10.
Who needs that in their life? What would MCA gain by participating on the Codex? A few interesting arguments about RPG design, which might be interesting and useful, but he needed to filter through a flood of trolling, hate speech and stupid jokes. It is just tiring for a man who has better things to do than talk with Codexers.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

At our best, we criticize things for being badly-written, underdesigned, lazy, corporatized, none of which is helpful as anything other than a valve for our disappointment. Most of the time, we don't even get that far.

I've already stated that I can completely understand them not posting here, but I have to disagree with your definition of the Codex "at our best". I'd say at our best there are interesting debates on game design, members with knowledge of just about any old RPG I can think of (and I discovered many hidden gems thanks to this place) and useful contributions to the community like mindx2's report which kicked off this thread.

There's lots of shit on the forum but ignoring what good parts there are just comes across as overly edgy.

 

[torpid]

Lots of exaggerating, I feel. Hell, this thread is a perfect counterexample: everyone's falling over themselves to praise the devs and barely a troll in sight, only an autist or two. Even in the PoE threads I'm pretty sure most people would turn nice once an actual dev showed up. And if MCA posted here with an alt account and said he liked FO3, what's wrong with him getting laughed at? MCA is a great guy, but that's still a crappy opinion . And like you said, if they posted with their real names they would get a lot of leeway -- all of a sudden liking FO3 would be a lot more acceptable if MCA came here and said so.

I think they don't post simply because it's convenient. Why post and get into arguments when you can just read and choose what criticism you take into account?

I'm just a regular forum goers, and even I can get tired of arguments where I state something about the game I like, and others state the opposite. We go back and forth, waste hours of our life, and in the end, nobody could convince the other about it. These can be interesting arguments, but I rarely see people changing their mind about their favourite games, design decisions on the Codex. Many people here just argues for the sake of arguing.

Welcome to every forum on the internet, ever.

What would the devs gain from these arguments? Nothing. They are better off just reading the feedback about their games, rather than participate in heated arguments which don't lead to anywhere.

Yes, we agree on that. But you're making it sound like the Codex can only rage, which is patently wrong. And lack of sycophancy =/= hate, trolling.

Lets just take a look at Sawyer's design decisions, which he talked about a lot at different forums. What do we do? We talk a lot about it, but these conversations boil down to hating these decision. Not by everybody, but many. So what would Sawyer gain by coming here and repeating the same things he already talked and which the Codexers hated all the time.

Sawyer's autism vs. certain Codexers' autism would be a sight to behold, now that you mention it. Plus, Roguey would be his wingman in every thread. I'm sure some good would come out of it.

 

[Monocause]

Very good read.

However, I have to wonder why developers get so worried about posting on the Codex. Are egos truly that fragile? Or have we all just become immune to smack talk here?

I have to believe it is the former, surely. After reading the Rock,paper,shotgun interview with Pete Molyneux, while I agree with the reasons behind the interviewer asking the questions he did, I don't see how this place is any harsher. Perhaps being harsh is cool now, or perhaps Molyneux is seen as a weak target to kick around (while other, higher personages get away with lies galore).

Bearing this in mind, and also the fact that the gentlemen involved in this report are not known as fable spinners, the mind boggles as to why they have been afraid of this place in the past (Anthony excluded of course).

I think I can answer that fairly efficiently. The way I see it, there's two reasons.

The personal one. So imagine you work on a game. Game development is always a rollercoaster of sorts where even the best of plans can come crashing down due to unexpected reasons. Publisher meddling, licensing issues, someone fucking up, a key member of the team unexpectedly quitting, an old code issue that kept lingering under stuff and was considered harmless or was never noticed that caused the game to crash every 15 seconds two months later forcing the team to spend a lot of time tracking it down and rewriting stuff, sometimes possibly from scratch - you name it. Lots of accidents can happen. Things get delayed or turn out way different than you imagined they would be.

When you go on the internet, it's hell. Your day job, especially during crunch time, is usually underpaid and can be nerve wracking and then you get all these little gits calling you an idiot, a moron, a hack, a 'fukken shitlord' (a personal favourite) - sometimes for not having done things you really wanted to get done, or raised countless times, but that would not get done due to time/financial constraints or because leadership decided otherwise.

You need to understand that it's not about the ability to take the heat. This is not an armchair discussion - there's tons of people here who abuse the shit out of your livelihood, of your stress and efforts and hard work, on a daily basis. Unless someone's got a really thick skin it's just pure masochism and people from the industry have absolutely no obligation to just come round and get shat at. They have better things to do in their free time, like maintaining their sanity or having fun with their families and friends.


And, the professional one. One of the reasons I personally never post in certain threads and why for the last couple of years have avoided GD like plague. The Codex can be an unacceptably mean place by civilised standards. Posting in a thread that's full of racial slurs and politically incorrect vitriol in general can rub recruiters, your superiors and even coworkers the wrong way, even if your post was completely harmless and innocent.

Sure, it's not exactly fair, but it's understandable. People who stumble on you posting on the Codex have no obligation to investigate what the Codex is, that it's actually not Stormfront, the RPG section, but an RPG board with a very broad spectrum of political opinion displayed, supported by very relaxed moderation rules. What they'll see is you mingling with people posting extremely racist/antisemitic/sexist things and it just may be enough for them; and if your answer to that is "well fuck them" - you seriously need to grow up


The question I'd ask is: why would you expect devs to post here when they can simply lurk, reading the discussion if they can stomach the abuse while avoiding the majority of the risks?

EDIT: Oh yeah, while the Obsidian guys don't get half as much abuse as say Bioware gets. For example, there was a ton of nasty shit thrown at Gaider or Hepler in multiple threads. How would you know that your ass is not the next one in line? Also, there's a thing about solidarity as I wouldn't really enjoy the notion that I'm becoming all chums with people who tear people from the industry i know personally and respect a new asshole. Just wouldn't feel right.

 

[mastroego]

Ignore what he says about grogs or how you should have fun.

I appreciate you taking time to explain things in detail, thanks!
Still, I've read enough from the man himself, I'd rather ignore what he sells

IIRC, he likes super simulationist stuff, just not half measures.

Honestly, I don't even know what that means. Super-simulationist?
I just advocate common-sense.

Let me explain what I mean for one last time, then I guess I'll be done with this debate.
It's not a matter of "precise simulation". You can refer to whatever level of abstraction, and still create coherent games.
Now, if you want to have characters that have only ONE score that controls "damage", the level of abstraction must be "unusually" high.
That is, your characters are "heroes" for instance, and you know nothing more!
You don't know what they do, if they use weapons, magic, or leadership maybe.
You know that they're "heroes" and that they can "damage" opponents in "some" way.
Your game won't even represent such things. Perhaps the game would all be about dialog choices, and sometimes you'd get to "hurt" your opponents using your ability as a "hero". A stat to control damage is enough, as you don't know exactly what you do.

BUT, if you want to specify that playable characters are mages, or sword-trained warriors, or whatever... then you don't have the luxury of a single stat controlling damage any longer.
That single Stat won't have any possible appliable meaning, it will just read like:
"Single Unified Stat Controlling Damage to Simplify The Source Code": that's what you should call it in game as well, because that's what it is.
You can't call it "Might" and call it a day.
Or you could, but you'd sound retarded.

Hope I've made my point clear enough this time.
Cheers

 

[Deleted member 7219]

After what happened to Sarkisian, I don't know why anyone would ever want to appear anywhere online wearing anything but a mask ever again.

Sarkeesian is a professional troll who lies about video games... but yeah, let's not derail this thread.

 

[Lurker King]

Because codex is a place where people ask questions, digest systems and call on shit design. Why would you spend your precious time on codex where you can be on reddit and only listen to praise ? Mirror mirror tell me..

This. And because they are small celebrities, not causal gamers. Everything they post online, even the simplest decision, can have a huge impact on their studio and sales. Just look at how Double-Bear got in trouble because Annie Mitsoda went SJW on-line and someone censored a troll review. Now, codexers are very passionate about cRPGs. We know that Chris Avellone prefer RTwP. That is one thing. Another thing would be if he decided to open a thread in the foruns explaining why RTwP is superior to turn-based. Can you imagine the amount of bleeding butthurt and glorious bitching? Just imagine what would happen if some asshole like Hiver demolished Chris arguments in his own thread. How fans would react? Professional developers can’t afford all this frontal debate online.

 

[J_C]

But you're making it sound like the Codex can only rage, which is patently wrong.

Sorry, I didn't want to sound like that. I know that the Codex is not all about rage. But is has its fare sare about that, more than any other forums.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Sorry, I didn't want to sound like that. I know that the Codex is not all about rage. But is has its fare sare about that, more than any other forums.

Nonsense, people rage just as much on other forums but are forced to take the passive aggressive approach all the while tip-toeing around forum rules and ban happy moderators. On Codex however, you can freely express all your butthurt and anger which is what makes it such a relaxing and therapeutic place.

 

[J_C]

which is what makes it such a relaxing and therapeutic place.

It depends on which side of the cock are you.