Codex Interview RPG Codex Retrospective Interview: Michael Cranford on Bard's Tale, Interplay, and Centauri Alliance

[Dorateen]

No one said the digitised version of RPGs had to simulate my formerly PnPing with my mates by forcing me to "drag" 5 more meatbags/carrier dolls with me for the entirety of my play session.

I'll take the Gold Box games or Might & Magic any day of the week, thank you very much.

 

[Wizfall]

Great interview, thanks to the Codex and Michael Cranford.
The idea of MMORPGs was a dream for me too as an old school RPG player so i understand why some "old" developers are so attracted by the concept.
But actually it doesn't work at all, things are much complicated that i though myself first and i can't see how it can works.
The main problem with MMORPG is that the adventure/story/exploration of single cRPG part is almost totally lost.
It's also quite impossible to design a world and create a narative where everyone want to be the main character/hero.

 

[Duraframe300]

It's also quite impossible to design a world and create a narative where everyone want to be the main character/hero.

I wouldn't say that.

At least, yes. If you approach it with the mindset that everyone NEEDS to be *the hero* it doesn't work.

I can personally see the appeal, since MMO's were something new then and a big experminental part...... Until creativity got squashed and bloating budgets + WOW stomped the *experimental* part of the whole thing deep into the ground.

 

[Roguey]

I mean, my goal was always to simulate real-time. I just didn’t have a way to do it, or a vision for it, given the limitations of the platforms I was developing on.

Ha!

Avoid tabletop hacks and simulationists at all costs. As noted by one of the only persons worth a damn

3.) Strategic failures feel really bad -- In an extreme example, he mentioned that The Bard's Tale, a 1980s classic, required you to have a bard in your party to progress past a certain point -- something that was not telegraphed by anything but the game's title.

 

[Volourn]

"For us it is, because he offers us the games we want."

Does he? Does he really? Til his recent KS stuff that is all about hyping up projects absed on 10+ year old games, he;s done mainly shit stuff ever since he abandoned Interplay to THE DEMON OF ALL DEMONS.


"Perhaps it is age, what with gaming experiences, but i actually find hard to believe that PnP/RPG fans do -not- dream of MMORPGs done right."

Done right? Sure. But,t hat has never happened unless you play pnp where you redo the same quest 20 times. R00fles!

 

[Gurkog]

There is no mmorpg done right until the average online gamer isn't an immature asshat.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Lots of veteran developers really love MMORPGs because they believe online RPGs come closer to simulating reality, as is evident from this interview in particular. Personally I disagree with that, but that is also the case for Robert Woodhead, Richard Garriott and many others from the first generation of RPG designers.

Infinitron had a good theory about that when we discussed it in the staff forum. If he feels like it, he'll post it here himself.

So yeah, a lot of the "first wave" RPG designers went really crazy about MMOs. That is understandable from a historical perspective, even if it clashes with the Codex's stance on MMOs and MMORPGs.

From the historical perspective, a lot of the early designers were big fans of pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons, and wanted to emulate that experience into video games. But that experience could never be fully emulated because it required gameplay with a Dungeon Master and a number of friends, while early CRPGs might have one player playing a number of characters against the game program, which acted as DM.

In theory, MMORPGs should solve this issue since now multiple people can play together against the computer DM. But for the most part, MMORPGs introduce a new problem. In pen and paper roleplaying games, the Player Characters have a permanent effect on the campaign. Lord Evil is slain by the heroes and his minions scattered, while the party make friends with King Nice, who gives them some land and a keep to maintain.

In an MMORPG a permanent effect is not possible. It doesn't matter if the PCs kill Lord Evil, because he'll just respawn for the next party. Stopping his minions won't matter, because whether or not they destroy the local village is a set event without the characters actions mattering. In the single player Baldur's Gate series, I may have played one Bhaal spawn among many, but when my master died it was permanent. When I killed his murderer Sarevok, I found that his actions and my own made a permanent impact on the game world. Later, I was given a keep to manage, which had its own notable impact on the game's flow of events. The game and I reacted to each other.

But an MMORPG has so many players that permanent changes to the campaign world are not possible. Because every player expects to be treated as the hero of their own story, but it's impossible for a campaign world to revolve around thousands of players at once. But the hope of making an MMORPG emulate tabletop play is still something really hoped for by the earliest developers. It's like the philosopher stone that could turn lead into gold. Everyone thinks that the answer is close, but no one seems to be able to make it happen. Eve Online may come the closest, as there is no narrative outside what the players create for themselves, and changes made by them are permanent due to the nature of that game.

But how do you emulate fantasy tropes into an enjoyable CRPG? You can play Frodo and his companions in a single player CRPG and make it all work. You won't be able to do the same with thousands of One Rings being carried by an equal number of parties, all marching towards Mt Doom along the same path and be able to create the same sense of desperate crisis and feats of heroism that you would in single player games.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Nice to hear Cranford's side of the story.

 

[mondblut]

Absolutely. I mean, my goal was always to simulate real-time. I just didn’t have a way to do it, or a vision for it, given the limitations of the platforms I was developing on.

Funny, those limitation didn't stop the Dungeon Master devs.

 

[mondblut]

The main problem with MMORPG is people.

Fixed.

 

[Mantic]

The main problem with MMORPG is people.

Fixed.

Exactly. The real beauty of single-player RPGs is that the GM is the computer and you can sit at home and have a good adventure without the need for any interactions with hypersocial extroverted fucktards, the type who play MMORPG's. I think people like Mr Cranford and Richard Garriot have their heads in the clouds about the realities of computer games.

 

[Alchemist]

Thanks Crooked Bee and MichaelCranford for that interview. These retrospectives are always an interesting read.

But an MMORPG has so many players that permanent changes to the campaign world are not possible. Because every player expects to be treated as the hero of their own story, but it's impossible for a campaign world to revolve around thousands of players at once. But the hope of making an MMORPG emulate tabletop play is still something really hoped for by the earliest developers. It's like the philosopher stone that could turn lead into gold. Everyone thinks that the answer is close, but no one seems to be able to make it happen. Eve Online may come the closest, as there is no narrative outside what the players create for themselves, and changes made by them are permanent due to the nature of that game.

But how do you emulate fantasy tropes into an enjoyable CRPG? You can play Frodo and his companions in a single player CRPG and make it all work. You won't be able to do the same with thousands of One Rings being carried by an equal number of parties, all marching towards Mt Doom along the same path and be able to create the same sense of desperate crisis and feats of heroism that you would in single player games.

Well said, that hits the nail on the head about all MMORPG's Achilles' heel. Thousands of "heroes" just do not mesh with what we mostly think of in terms of adventure stories, literature, legends, and PnP RPG campaigns. MMOs are more interesting when they don't even try to do that - like in the more fully sandbox titles (Ultima Online, pre-NGE SWG, EVE, WURM online...). Then a story can emerge as people take the roles they want to take - but not everyone is going to be a great hero. Some people in UO choose to be the best blacksmith or animal tamer, or in SWG they could spend their entire time building a crafting empire, while others fight in the galactic war. Player towns are built, there are politics, etc. Unfortunately most MMO publishers don't see money in this sandbox approach, and continue chasing after the mass market. SWG gets cancelled and instead we get SWTOR .

But indeed - the problem is all the people. You put 1000s of people in one game world and there's no way they'll all get along or enjoy the same play style. That's the big puzzle even sandboxes don't solve. Garriott gets bashed a lot about SotA around here - but that is at least one area he claims to have new ideas about - curating the people who appear in your game world. Theoretically making it less likely that some idiot named 1337pwnzor wanders around and ruins your game. We'll see how that works out I suppose.

Maybe NWN / NWN2 had the right idea by keeping the multi-player scope very small - similar numbers to a tabletop PnP group. Why are no game developers pursuing that direction more? It would seem a lot more workable, and still allow for the narrative to focus on a small band of heroes.

 

[Ninjerk]

Thanks Crooked Bee and MichaelCranford for that interview. These retrospectives are always an interesting read.

But an MMORPG has so many players that permanent changes to the campaign world are not possible. Because every player expects to be treated as the hero of their own story, but it's impossible for a campaign world to revolve around thousands of players at once. But the hope of making an MMORPG emulate tabletop play is still something really hoped for by the earliest developers. It's like the philosopher stone that could turn lead into gold. Everyone thinks that the answer is close, but no one seems to be able to make it happen. Eve Online may come the closest, as there is no narrative outside what the players create for themselves, and changes made by them are permanent due to the nature of that game..[/quote]

Whatever one thinks about the design of vanilla WoW, you can almost directly trace its decline to how much hero worship the user received. In vanilla, most players were the foot soldiers in a war against the Elemental Lord of Fire and the leader of the black dragons (then some bug things, then Kel'thuzad), then in Burning Crusade you could work your way up through an excruciating rep grind to get recognition by name as one of Illidan's lieutenants (and eventually he addresses you himself), and finally the Lich King himself welcomes each and every player iirc before they're even max level to the conflict in Northrend.[/quote]

 

[Maiandros]

No one said the digitised version of RPGs had to simulate my formerly PnPing with my mates by forcing me to "drag" 5 more meatbags/carrier dolls with me for the entirety of my play session.

I'll take the Gold Box games or Might & Magic any day of the week, thank you very much.

Preference is one thing. Preference dictated to the exclusion of all else is another.
I will take my reconsidering, rethinking and wondering over possible alterations any day of the week, i thank you as well. When i reach the age of 80 and onwards, i can see me adopting a close, tight one-dimensional blindfold..i have yet some time to get there.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS LOLLOLOL I THINK MOST OF US LIKE SINGLNE PLAYERS GAMEFS GBDECUASE WE ARE NERDS AND LONERS AT HART AND OTHER POEPLE JUST FUCK UP THE AWESOMERNESS WE IMAHINE IN OUR HEAFS

IT WAS HARD ENOUGH TO KEEP MY FRIEDS THAT LIKED RPG STUFF LOLLOLOLOL ONE OF THEM PUNCHED ME ONE TIME CAUSE I MAFR FUN OF HIM THAN I PUNCHED HIM IN THE FACE AND THEN WE WERE FRIEDNS A FEW DAYS LATER BUT SHIT I AM TOO OLD FOR THAT NOW

 

[Visbhume]

Single-player CRPGs, like books, require moments of detachment and isolation. But, just as with books, they are social in their own way. We are talking about them in a forum, after all.

 

[Tramboi]

Funny, those limitation didn't stop the Dungeon Master devs.

Let's admit a real-time blobber was probably hard to do properly on a 8bit machine.
Though Bloodwych was ported to some 8bit platforms.

Now Dungeons of Daggorath...

 

[Onholyservicebound]

BROS LOLLOLOL I THINK MOST OF US LIKE SINGLNE PLAYERS GAMEFS GBDECUASE WE ARE NERDS AND LONERS AT HART AND OTHER POEPLE JUST FUCK UP THE AWESOMERNESS WE IMAHINE IN OUR HEAFS

IT WAS HARD ENOUGH TO KEEP MY FRIEDS THAT LIKED RPG STUFF LOLLOLOLOL ONE OF THEM PUNCHED ME ONE TIME CAUSE I MAFR FUN OF HIM THAN I PUNCHED HIM IN THE FACE AND THEN WE WERE FRIEDNS A FEW DAYS LATER BUT SHIT I AM TOO OLD FOR THAT NOW

 

[Insane Psychic]

There is no mmorpg done right until the average online gamer isn't an immature asshat.

Well, so are tabletop players, that's why we need DMs

 

[LeStryfe79]

The real problem of MMORPGs is the ratio of PC's to NPC's and lack of nonheroic content. 5000 concurrent heroes running around an area the size of a small town does not into D&D. This is why the genre needs either an extremely well made sandbox or successor to Neverwinter Nights.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Well, so are tabletop players, that's why we need DMs

At least you usually know those asshats, and they're only an arm's length away from your fist.

 

[Daemongar]

Awesome interview, with some disappointing things and some interesting ones. Fargo being (somewhat) a douche doesn't come as a surprise, and I certainly find his strong words against publishers in his Kickstarter pitch, conflicting with what he used to be on the old interplay. Again, something expected but it kinda erodes a little bit his image as the Pope/Prophet of this wave of Old-Skool RPG revival.

Yeah, I know. It's just bizzness.

Well, I'm not so sure that Fargo thought himself as that great a businessman either. In the Matt Chat interviews, Fargo addresses this specifically. My thoughts are that there were a couple young people, with a great idea at a perfect time, and no-one really prepared for the road ahead. As much as I love the Bard's Tale game, I know folks who went into business with friends, and it always ends the same way. Nobody magically becomes and asshole, it's just that pressures affect people differently. Also, where the hell was my CEO to turn to for advice when I was his age?

Excellent article, and I'm glad Cranford had a chance to talk. If he's reading, I'd really like to see what he could produce, complete with hardcore rabbit holes.

 

[octavius]

Bard's Tale 2 was the game that finally made me cRPG player and fan. I had Father Kringle and Ybarra the Mage in my party.
I used BAYLOR'S SPELL BIND to catch them ... great times.

I remember having Oscon as a permanent member for most of the game after I snared him. I even ditched one of my original party members for him, so that I could have Oscon in the party and still have room for a possible replacement. I think it was only in the last dungeon Oscon became obsolete.

BT2 is definitely one of the games I'm most proud of having completed; it was huge, it was brutal and it had some of the most diabolical level design of any party based game and was a joy to map for us who like a good mapping challenge.

 

[octavius]

Absolutely. I mean, my goal was always to simulate real-time. I just didn’t have a way to do it, or a vision for it, given the limitations of the platforms I was developing on.

Funny, those limitation didn't stop the Dungeon Master devs.

I think that's rather unfair. Dungeon Master was developed for the 16 bit Atari ST nearly three eyars after the first Bard's Tale game.

 

[Mantic]

Awesome interview, with some disappointing things and some interesting ones. Fargo being (somewhat) a douche doesn't come as a surprise, and I certainly find his strong words against publishers in his Kickstarter pitch, conflicting with what he used to be on the old interplay. Again, something expected but it kinda erodes a little bit his image as the Pope/Prophet of this wave of Old-Skool RPG revival.

Yeah, I know. It's just bizzness.

Well, I'm not so sure that Fargo thought himself as that great a businessman either. In the Matt Chat interviews, Fargo addresses this specifically. My thoughts are that there were a couple young people, with a great idea at a perfect time, and no-one really prepared for the road ahead. As much as I love the Bard's Tale game, I know folks who went into business with friends, and it always ends the same way. Nobody magically becomes and asshole, it's just that pressures affect people differently. Also, where the hell was my CEO to turn to for advice when I was his age?

Excellent article, and I'm glad Cranford had a chance to talk. If he's reading, I'd really like to see what he could produce, complete with hardcore rabbit holes.

In addition, thinking of Fargo and Interplay as the "publisher" during Bard's Tale times is just wrong, Interplay became a publisher in the early 90's and was just a developer in the 80's. Bard's Tale 1-3 (as well as Wasteland) were published by Electronic Arts, so it's not hard to imagine that the Interplay guys got basically nothing back from sales. Cranford and Fargo's disagreements were probably nothing but arguments over spare change, Fargo wanted to use any money they got from EA to build the company, and Cranford wanted it for himself for designing the game, who is in the right there?