Review RPG Codex Review: Might & Magic X: Legacy

[Grauken]

is it just shit in comparison to something like Xeen

It isn't, just different

 

[Darth Roxor]

It's really funny to see how time has hardened the kneejerk opinions. Back in the day it was just "yeah it's not perfect", now its "it has no redeeming qualities at all, I prefer My Time At Portia to it"

I've always hated it

when i played it 9 years or so ago i was taken by the mechanics. maybe it helps that i don't have strong opinions about the M&M games, is it just shit in comparison to something like Xeen?

What irked me the most about this game was that it was just extremely poorly designed. It's one thing to be bad compared to previous M&Ms, but a whole another to just be a bad game, period. The most upsetting part of it was that they clearly tried to make the gameplay more "tactically involved", but they clearly had no idea what they were doing. A great many of the problems that e.g. Sceptic mentioned in his revio but which ultimately didn't bother him much were a total dealbreaker for me.

 

[Black_Willow]

Still better than ToEE.

 

[Blaine]

It's really funny to see how time has hardened the kneejerk opinions. Back in the day it was just "yeah it's not perfect", now its "it has no redeeming qualities at all, I prefer My Time At Portia to it"

My opinion of it hasn't changed one iota, just for the record.

Quibbling aside, here's my full and comprehensive review of the game. I trust this will be forwarded directly to Limbic for consideration.

 

[cvv]

It's really funny to see how time has hardened the kneejerk opinions. Back in the day it was just "yeah it's not perfect", now its "it has no redeeming qualities at all, I prefer My Time At Portia to it"

I've always hated it

Because you played on Easy and the game was still kicking your ass.

Whenever people talk about "bad design" and "artificial difficulty" that's code for "game whooped my ass but it's not my fault I swear".

 

[Zeriel]

It's really funny to see how time has hardened the kneejerk opinions. Back in the day it was just "yeah it's not perfect", now its "it has no redeeming qualities at all, I prefer My Time At Portia to it"

I've always hated it

Because you played on Easy and the game was still kicking your ass.

Whenever people talk about "bad design" and "artificial difficulty" that's code for "game whooped my ass but it's not my fault I swear".

I think a valid complaint is "I didn't enjoy the gameplay". "It's unfair!" is whatever. For example, I have never enjoyed Dark Souls moment to moment gameplay, but I can appreciate certain parts of the original design (i.e, level design) and can understand why others love it. I'm not just going to say, "Dark Souls is objectively a trash game!" That's cope.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

The best thing about MMX is that it exists. Pretty much participation award - the game.

Out of the three most important crpg aspects:

1. Looting/itemization - absolutely shit tier.
2. Char/party building - poor, full of concepts that just don't work in-game (defender class that cannot defend the party and so on).
3. Combat - eehhhh... definitely the best part the game, but nothing stellar in mechanics, design or difficulty. Something as basic and uninventive as Etrian Odyssey pretty much Germany-Brazils it.

The less important aspects like writing or production values are not particularly gr8, either.

 

[Grunker]

M&MX is an OK game. Certainly more OK than trash tier jank like elex

i hate when these threads are rezzed because they remind me this shit game exists

The duality of saying this and then liking Shadowrun Returns.

In many regards, I am incredibly thankful for Roxor praising Shadowrun Returns. It makes his purist stance trivial to debunk

 

[Crispy]

more OK than trash tier jank like elex

ELEX 2 is trash. ELEX is a quality action RPG with character.

 

[Lady Error]

I have no idea what is there to hate about this game.

 

[cvv]

1. Looting/itemization - absolutely shit tier.
2. Char/party building - poor, full of concepts that just don't work in-game (defender class that cannot defend the party and so on).
3. Combat - eehhhh... definitely the best part the game, but nothing stellar in mechanics, design or difficulty. Something as basic and uninventive as Etrian Odyssey pretty much Germany-Brazils it.

The less important aspects like writing or production values are not particularly gr8, either.

How many RPGs have you played if you think itemization in MMX is absolute trash tier? What do you say about stuff like TW3 itemization? It's "absolute absolute trash tier times twice"? Please.
Also the classic MM chardev built around trainers is conceptually one of the best ever. Specifically this game drops the ball somewhat because the tier rewards are kindda meagre and boring more often than not, just stat increases, little numbers going up. Otherwise they carry the torch well.
Combat is great up until the mid-game, then becomes a faceroll.
Agreed on writing being garbage but MM writing has always been comical and goofy and "who gives a fuck lol" more than anything else.
Production values are kindda bad but I'm just glad the game exists in the first place. How many turn-based blobbers have we got in this millennium? Don't bother counting, it's not many.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

How many RPGs have you played if you think itemization in MMX is absolute trash tier? What do you say about stuff like TW3 itemization? It's "absolute absolute trash tier times twice"? Please.

Most of them. MMX itemization is shit, most of the uniques aren't interesting or exciting at all and the non-uniques are a nothing burger. I also have no idea on what planet comparison between this and Witcher makes sense, but I know nothing about the latter's itemization so I believe it's worse. Hooray.

Also the classic MM chardev built around trainers is conceptually one of the best ever. Specifically this game drops the ball somewhat because the tier rewards are kindda meagre and boring more often than not, just stat increases, little numbers going up. Otherwise they carry the torch well.

Conceptually lol. There's nothing there. No interesting theory crafting, barely any fun combos. Concepts that don't work at all. It has pretty much two builds: basic buffer and basic dmg dealer.

Combat is great up until the mid-game, then becomes a faceroll.

MMX combat is absolutely not ”great”. It tries. It's tb, the difficulty is not trivial and there's little hand holding. Which is nice and all, but interesting content just isn't there and points one and two are way too weak to carry it.

How many turn-based blobbers have we got in this millennium? Don't bother counting, it's not many.

Which is why I appreciate it. Participation award the game. Although it didn't manage to really clear any bars including the most basic one: being better than the noteworthy contemporary console blobbers. In fact, it smashed face first into it.

 

[Zeriel]

MM 6-8 itemization is just as bad if not worse. It was all Diablo-esque bonuses, the only cool part there was that it tied into crafting skills and spells that "created" magic items.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Ah yes, the "a game from 10 to 30 years ago which we were supposed to improve upon with much higher budget, incomparable technology and 20/20 hindsight also had flaws" ace in the hole is here. That sure took long.

Although, for the record, I think itemization in 6 and 7 (I barely remember 8) was OK for what these games were going for (which is something quite different than X). They also reign supreme with their prestigious paper dolls, which we all love so much.

 

[cvv]

Although, for the record, I think itemization in 6 and 7 (I barely remember 8) was OK for what these games were going for (which is something quite different than X).

Bruh.

For the record I also think the itemization in MMX is bad but at least it has "living" gear that gains XP and gets bonuses and better stats as it levels up, which is a super cool idea that more games should use.

 

[Zeriel]

Ah yes, the "a game from 10 to 30 years ago which we were supposed to improve upon with much higher budget, incomparable technology and 20/20 hindsight also had flaws" ace in the hole is here. That sure took long.

Although, for the record, I think itemization in 6 and 7 (I barely remember 8) was OK for what these games were going for (which is something quite different than X). They also reign supreme with their prestigious paper dolls, which we all love so much.

This is exactly why I can't take this line of criticism seriously. From "its a terrible game with no redeeming features" to "It has to be better than some of the most loved games ever, or it doesn't count!" Sweet baby jesus.

For the record, I'd give most of my internal organs for new games that just replicate what the best (or even average) games of the 90s did. More often the problem is attempts to "evolve" the formula making it worse.

In any case, MMXL was never going to be what you're describing. Especially as far as budget... M&M budget was arguably higher, adjusted for real terms. Certainly for what that budget gets you nowadays. MMXL was pure indie bait; it fucking featured RPGCodex in the marketing trailer, what does that tell you? MMXL for its era is the equivelant of Spiderweb Software games. M&M 6-8 on the other hand were mainstream retail games.

 

[cvv]

In any case, MMXL was never going to be what you're describing. Especially as far as budget... M&M budget was arguably higher, adjusted for real terms. Certainly for what that budget gets you nowadays. MMXL was pure indie bait; it fucking featured RPGCodex in the marketing trailer, what does that tell you? MMXL for its era is the equivelant of Spiderweb Software games. M&M 6-8 on the other hand were mainstream retail games.

Exactly this, said so myself many times here.

Wasn't able to fast google MM6 budget but I imagine back in mid-1990s it must've been one of the most expensive games ever made, p. much the equivalent of tryple-A these days. Caneghem himself said it was "by far the largest and most ambitious game in the history of role playing games".

In comparison MMX was a tiny nostalgia fuelled, shoestring budget indie project cobbled together from dusty assets found in the furthest corner of Ubisoft's warehouse.

 

[anvi]

I always thought this game was kind of nice, decent little RPG with some decent combat. Some shallow extremities but the main adventure was quite good. Lukewarm praise yet for me just being 'decent' puts it above 99% of games. Most games are terrible and way below average, somehow not dragging the average down with them.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

This is exactly why I can't take this line of criticism seriously. From "its a terrible game with no redeeming features" to "It has to be better than some of the most loved games ever, or it doesn't count!" Sweet baby jesus.

For the record, I'd give most of my internal organs for new games that just replicate what the best (or even average) games of the 90s did. More often the problem is attempts to "evolve" the formula making it worse.

In any case, MMXL was never going to be what you're describing. Especially as far as budget... M&M budget was arguably higher, adjusted for real terms. Certainly for what that budget gets you nowadays. MMXL was pure indie bait; it fucking featured RPGCodex in the marketing trailer, what does that tell you? MMXL for its era is the equivelant of Spiderweb Software games. M&M 6-8 on the other hand were mainstream retail games.

Dude, tf are you talking about Silly strawmen aside, it was you who made a direct comparison between X and older entries, trying to put it in a good light in a naive manner.

I ain't gonna get dragged into explaining revisionist nonsense regarding how it went in the nineties or that you should obviously expect a game with access to modern tech and literally decades of hindsight to score higher on certain important design notes regardless of its budget. What I expected from mmx is spelled out in my posts. To beat, or at least match, animu pokemang blobbers in what I consider vital aspects for this kind of crpg. Guess what budget or/and marketing power most of them have.

 

[Zeriel]

This is exactly why I can't take this line of criticism seriously. From "its a terrible game with no redeeming features" to "It has to be better than some of the most loved games ever, or it doesn't count!" Sweet baby jesus.

For the record, I'd give most of my internal organs for new games that just replicate what the best (or even average) games of the 90s did. More often the problem is attempts to "evolve" the formula making it worse.

In any case, MMXL was never going to be what you're describing. Especially as far as budget... M&M budget was arguably higher, adjusted for real terms. Certainly for what that budget gets you nowadays. MMXL was pure indie bait; it fucking featured RPGCodex in the marketing trailer, what does that tell you? MMXL for its era is the equivelant of Spiderweb Software games. M&M 6-8 on the other hand were mainstream retail games.

Dude, tf are you talking about Silly strawmen aside, it was you who made a direct comparison between X and older entries, trying to put it in a good light in a naive manner.

I ain't gonna get dragged into explaining revisionist nonsense regarding how it went in the nineties or that you should obviously expect a game with access to modern tech and literally decades of hindsight to score higher on certain important design notes regardless of its budget. What I expected from mmx is spelled out in my posts. To beat, or at least match, animu pokemang blobbers in what I consider vital aspects for this kind of crpg. Guess what budget or/and marketing power most of them have.

I'm answering your criticism. You're the one who thinks the itemization sucks. If your opinion is that Might & Magic as a series has always sucked and that's why you hate the game, make that argument. Otherwise "b-buh it isn't better than the previous iterations of the series and hence is worthless as a game!" is an incoherent argument. And if you do hate the series, then why are you even here?

 

[cvv]

you should obviously expect a game with access to modern tech and literally decades of hindsight to score higher on certain important design notes

Not sure what tech has to do with the quality of itemization.

Plus itemization best practices and know-how existed long before cRPGs, let alone Inner Sanctum, LET ALONE the late 1990s sequels. NWC had also decades of hindsight and still the itemization kindda sucked and still people loved the games, rightly so.

What other important design notes are there that Limbic bungled in MMX even tho previous MMs got them right?

 

[0sacred]

MMXL for its era is the equivelant of Spiderweb Software games.

meaning, made by one guy in his basement?

 

[0sacred]

Wasn't able to fast google MM6 budget but I imagine back in mid-1990s it must've been one of the most expensive games ever made, p. much the equivalent of tryple-A these days. Caneghem himself said it was "by far the largest and most ambitious game in the history of role playing games".

they bought the engine from someone who probably wasn't able to produce an RPG on their own, i.e. for peanuts, probably. Saved quite a lot of development time/budget I would wager.

source:





(it's somewhere in this 4 part series )

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I'm answering your criticism. You're the one who thinks the itemization sucks. If your opinion is that Might & Magic as a series has always sucked and that's why you hate the game, make that argument. Otherwise "b-buh it isn't better than the previous iterations of the series and hence is worthless as a game!" is an incoherent argument. And if you do hate the series, then why are you even here?

The only thing you keep answering is your own poorly made "argument”. You've literally strode into this thread with "loot in older MM entries was also bad!!!!” and keep clinging to it like it was some huge check-mate atheists moment. I don't even mind that it's highly debatable. But it's not a comparison I made and not a comparison I'm interested in. You seem to be the type to think a game reaching the achievement of being as bad at something as a 15+ yo title from the same genre is noteworthy so feel free to keep talking to yourself. I'm itt for certain mysterious reasons which are beyond your understanding.

 

[Lady Error]

You seem to be the type to think a game reaching the achievement of being as bad at something as a 15+ yo title from the same genre is noteworthy

So how many RPGs have come out in the recent years that are better than the 15+ yo titles? Not too many? So why do you expect that newer RPGs will be better than older ones? The whole RPG Codex experience of the last 20 years has been mostly the complete opposite.