Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Pathfinder Kingmaker

[Trashos]

Roguey, nice review. I have disagreements here and there, but overall I can recommend it to people to read it.

A minor correction: Valerie is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. She is close to being Lawful Good though, and I understand why memory can fail here.

The most important thing I want to add:

The main theme of the narrative is "How to be a King". Almost all the plot points, major and minor, revolve around this theme. There are also several subthemes (eg, forgiveness, atonement, how to wield power, and myriad others) which are again connected to the main theme, often indirectly.

I was very impressed with all those intertwined themes, and I thought I should mention it. There is a lot of meat in the narrative and stories in the game, but it is easy to miss (especially in a single playthrough), because it is not in your face at all. Still, it is there for anyone who might care.

Again, good review.

 

[Atlet]

Thanks for the review, Roguey. ^^

I restarted playing this game again this week. Lets see if it is that good.

 

[luj1]

Why did it take us so long to review Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Because the sequel is coming out and they need a little push with sales? Just like when you shamelessly shilled for PoE/PoE 2 with the funny retrospective (which was also pinned)

The only difference is that this one doesnt have "retrospective" in the title because you now realize how dumb that was to say for a 2 year old game.

 

[Atlet]

Why did it take us so long to review Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Because the sequel is coming out and they need a little push with sales? Just like when you shamelessly shilled for PoE/PoE 2 with the funny retrospective (which was also pinned)

The only difference is that this one doesnt have "retrospective" in the title because you now realize how dumb that was to say for a 2 year old game.

I dont think that was the case here, Luj1.

I remember when Infi approached Roguey several months ago and asked him to review the game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I remember when Infi approached Roguey several months ago and asked him to review the game.

I wonder why he had not approached Desiderius or Pink Eye.

 

[Gregz]

1. Gregz:
   Roguey: 100% convinced the only reason Lil hates it is because of the cartoony kiddy shit art style. Otherwise it's the kind of thing she'd go for, not unlike Realms Beyond <- JA2 is a masterpiece, kingfaker is garbage
2. Gregz:
   kingfaker has a decent combat engine, and Lilura still thinks it's crap
3. Gregz:
   to me that speaks volumes
4. Gregz:
   the only things kingfaker have going for it are the combat engine and character generation, everything else is garbage...and there's a LOT of everything else
5. PorkyThePaladin:
   gregz what you think about roguey's review?
6. Roguey:
   Yeah, that she can't stand the art. She hasn't actually played it
7. PorkyThePaladin:
   front page
8. Gregz:
   PorkyThePaladin: gregz what you think about roguey's review? <- neutral pozzitive, politically savvy
9. PorkyThePaladin:
   to me it kinda sounded like "this game bored the living shit out of me but i wont offend the autists so rough gem"
10. Gregz:
    any game you complete and tell yourself you'll never play it again, that's a deep sign that you didn't enjoy the experience
11. Gregz:
    agreed
12. PorkyThePaladin:
    im too lazy to link it
13. Roguey:
    I would consider it a classic if it were 60 hours
14. Gregz:
    combat is the only thing kingfaker has going for it, and your review is 1) too much combat 2) too much combat 3) too much combat lol
15. Roguey:
    https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11525
16. PorkyThePaladin:
    i ddint like the combat in shitmaker either
17. PorkyThePaladin:
    its like 70% trash comabt
18. PorkyThePaladin:
    and 30% annoing unbalanced fights
19. Gregz:
    trash combat is great if you actually get meaningful xp and a chance of good items
20. Gregz:
    but when it's a meaningless timesink? yeah, Owlcat
21. Atleticano:
    Trash battles when the combat is enjoyable are not a bad thing, imo
22. Atleticano:
    (yeah, agree with gregz)
23. Atleticano:
    *is
24. Roguey:
    There's a ton of good loot to get
25. Atleticano:
    Gregz: trash combat is great if you actually get meaningful xp and a chance of good items -> ATOM has this
26. Gregz:
    not from any RNG encounters there aren't
27. Roguey:
    Oh, I always avoided random encounters whenever I could
28. Roguey:
    I don't mind their existence since they're there to gauge how well you can handle a region's content
29. Gregz:
    I hate Owlcat so much because they took a great combat engine, and wrapped it in every poor decision a designer could make...the highest levels DM/design decisions were all grotesquely inept
30. Gregz:
    not just a wasted opportunity; it sent the entire genre down a blind alley

 

[Trashos]

Why did it take us so long to review Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Because the sequel is coming out and they need a little push with sales? Just like when you shamelessly shilled for PoE/PoE 2 with the funny retrospective (which was also pinned)

The only difference is that this one doesnt have "retrospective" in the title because you now realize how dumb that was to say for a 2 year old game.

Pure shilling:

Why did it take us so long to review Pathfinder: Kingmaker, our RPG of the year for 2018? Maybe it's because the game isn't good in a particularly interesting way - merely a well-executed visit to the not-Forgotten Realms.

My first reaction was "ffs, Infinitron, can you for once appreciate a great game?!"

 

[rusty_shackleford]

appreciate a great game?!"

sure, but this thread isn't about one

 

[Desiderius]

I remember when Infi approached Roguey several months ago and asked him to review the game.

I wonder why he had not approached Desiderius or Pink Eye.

He (it?) may have. He took an immediate disliking to me that I'm not sure has entirely abated. In any event as I said regrettably I'm now an editor (mostly for my wife) more than a writer.

The game is a throwback to everything from original Gygax-era PnP to the earliest Roguelikes and Wizardries, Gold Box, and of course BG and IWD. Add on a plot out of a Russian novel and the subversion of SJW tropes and you've got a game for the ages. Rough edges have been slowly smoothed out and content gaps will be filled by modders in coming years, principally the scandously thin Kingdom Management. A game designed not only for replayability but to be replayed.

 

[Trashos]

appreciate a great game?!"

sure, but this thread isn't about one

- build porn
- european classic literature level of narrative

Nothing to see here guys, move along.

 

[Desiderius]

She is close to being Lawful Good though, and I understand why memory can fail here.

No, she isn't. Being falsely considerate in one's snobbery is not Good. A missed opportunity to make a Good path at least an option, given the lack of any candidates for Paladin among the companions, and rings false regarding the resolution of the quest (that Shelyn would be satisfied with such a very limited epiphany). Similar mistake made by Martin in Game of Thrones. Aversion to the depiction of the Good is as detrimental to world building as is the aversion to coming to terms with Evil, which is a strength of both.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

- european classic literature level of narrative

You can thank the American writers for this

 

[Trashos]

She is close to being Lawful Good though, and I understand why memory can fail here.

No, she isn't. Being falsely considerate in one's snobbery is not Good. A missed opportunity to make a Good path at least an option, given the lack of any candidates for Paladin among the companions, and rings false regarding the resolution of the quest (that Shelyn would be satisfied with such a very limited epiphany). Similar mistake made by Martin in Game of Thrones. Aversion to the depiction of the Good is as detrimental to world building as is the aversion to coming to terms with Evil, which is a strength of both.

I mean, you yourself are saying that an option for a Lawful Good path would fit Valerie. And indeed it does. I think what we are saying is not that far apart.

 

[Desiderius]

Ok what the hell?? Its a mostly positive review that ends with "i never want to play it again.....". If you don't want to play a big crpg for the second time despite all the new choices you can make, builds for your character or different companions then this game is absolutely mediocre. How can you possibly call it a "rough diamond" then?

It's very subjective. I personally never play RPGs for the second time, even my favourite ones which I consider to be amazing games (well, apart from a couple of cases when I replayed an RPG 10-15 years after the first playthrough, by which time I've almost completely forgotten the plot), since for me the story is always much more important than the combat, and if I already know the story even the most amazing RPG turns into a boring tedium for me. And speaking of choices, I always roleplay one sort of a character and I make all of the decisions according to that, which means that I'll still make the same choices I made on the first playthrough even if I'd do a second one. So yeah, for some people it makes perfect sense to consider an RPG a "rough diamond" (or even the best game ever made), but still to never want to replay it.

Yeah, I don't know where you guys find the time/patience for these 2nd and 3rd playthroughs.

I never actually finished one and didn't even get to Pitax until my fifth. The fun is in trying different builds and combos and ways of approaching the KM. Once you find something you'd rather try you start over.

 

[Desiderius]

She is close to being Lawful Good though, and I understand why memory can fail here.

No, she isn't. Being falsely considerate in one's snobbery is not Good. A missed opportunity to make a Good path at least an option, given the lack of any candidates for Paladin among the companions, and rings false regarding the resolution of the quest (that Shelyn would be satisfied with such a very limited epiphany). Similar mistake made by Martin in Game of Thrones. Aversion to the depiction of the Good is as detrimental to world building as is the aversion to coming to terms with Evil, which is a strength of both.

I mean, you yourself are saying that an option for a Lawful Good path would fit Valerie. And indeed it does. I think what we are saying is not that far apart.

I'm saying that she doesn't move an inch off of LN regardless of what path you take, which is a missed opportunity/inconsistent with the arc of her quest itself given that Shelyn is LG.

 

[Roguey]

No, she isn't. Being falsely considerate in one's snobbery is not Good.

I'm used to lawful good characters being written as jerks who wish to genocide everyone evil, hence the mistake.

 

[Trashos]

- european classic literature level of narrative

You can thank the American writers for this

I have no doubt that MCA had a lot to do with it (would we call his style "American" though?). But I am not surprised that most of the writers were european -it is kinda the style in this game. No disrespect to American writers, there are good ones.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

- european classic literature level of narrative

You can thank the American writers for this

I have no doubt that MCA had a lot to do with it (would we call his style "American" though?). But I am not surprised that most of the writers were european -it is kinda the style in this game. No disrespect to American writers, there are good ones.

Kingmaker adventure path was written entirely by americans

 

[Trashos]

Kingmaker adventure path was written entirely by americans

Yeah, about that... I should take a look at it at some point. I am not optimistic that I am going to appreciate it as much as I appreciated the writing in the videogame, but you are right that I have no right to dismiss it without looking at it first. You have got a point there.

I'm saying that she doesn't move an inch off of LN regardless of what path you take, which is a missed opportunity/inconsistent with the arc of her quest itself given that Shelyn is LG.

You 'd place her dead center on the wheel then? I have to think about that, I would probably place her closer to Good. But I have to read the guidelines for Pathfinder's Good again.

 

[Desiderius]

You 'd place her dead center on the wheel then? I have to think about that, I would probably place her closer to Good. But I have to read the guidelines for Pathfinder's Good again.

At minimum she'd need to take up her needlepoint again and give up her philistine contempt for the arts which are at the center of her deity's concern.

 

[Desiderius]

No, she isn't. Being falsely considerate in one's snobbery is not Good.

I'm used to lawful good characters being written as jerks who wish to genocide everyone evil, hence the mistake.

Exactly. So tiresome.

 

[ItsChon]

Didn't talk enough about the combat which I thought absolutely ruined the game. At this point, I think the only RTwP combat system I enjoy is IE.

 

[Pink Eye]

Didn't talk enough about the combat which I thought absolutely ruined the game. At this point, I think the only RTwP combat system I enjoy is IE.

What do you think was wrong with it?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Didn't talk enough about the combat which I thought absolutely ruined the game. At this point, I think the only RTwP combat system I enjoy is IE.

The most recent update added a turnbased combat system, you should give it a try.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Why did it take us so long to review Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Because the sequel is coming out and they need a little push with sales? Just like when you shamelessly shilled for PoE/PoE 2 with the funny retrospective (which was also pinned)

The only difference is that this one doesnt have "retrospective" in the title because you now realize how dumb that was to say for a 2 year old game.

I dont think that was the case here, Luj1.

I remember when Infi approached Roguey several months ago and asked him to review the game.

Strange how everyone who claims to like Shitmaker, unlike say myself or Gregz, it takes them many months to play through it. Took Roguey several months, Crispy played it for like half a year or more before giving up. You can't use the "it's big" excuse, because I've finished tons of 100+ hour RPGs/games in 1-2 months when they were fun. For example, it took me less than a month to finish New Vegas + All DLCs, about a month for BotW, and about 2 months for Witcher 3, which took me like 300 hours to complete.

Also, just so I understand correctly (Roguey can correct me), he:

1. Played on easy combat difficulty.
2. Avoided random encounters.
3. Avoided most of the side-maps and stuck only to main quest maps.
4. Would've avoided the Kingdom management side if the auto decisions weren't sub-optimal.
5. Avoided the final chapter.

I mean, I am not a rocket scientist, but does this sound like a game that he enjoyed?