Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Pathfinder Kingmaker

[Roguey]

1. Played on easy combat difficulty.

I played on a custom difficulty that removed stat bloat but kept most things core (critical hits, damage, permadeath)

2. Avoided random encounters.

Playing the game as intended since it always gives you the chance to evade. Sometimes it doesn't work, so I just went through them.

3. Avoided most of the side-maps and stuck only to main quest maps.

That was my intention at the start, but there was too much downtime in-between main quests so I ended up visiting every area in the game.

4. Would've avoided the Kingdom management side if the auto decisions weren't sub-optimal.

This is possible.

5. Avoided the final chapter.

It would be out of character for both me and my character to deliberately antagonize a demigod after already seeing what he's capable of doing.

I outlined my likes and dislikes. You can decide for yourself if too much grind is a personal dealbreaker.

 

[Tyranicon]

Didn't talk enough about the combat which I thought absolutely ruined the game. At this point, I think the only RTwP combat system I enjoy is IE.

The most recent update added a turnbased combat system, you should give it a try.

Can anyone actually confirm if the TB combat is actually good?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Didn't talk enough about the combat which I thought absolutely ruined the game. At this point, I think the only RTwP combat system I enjoy is IE.

The most recent update added a turnbased combat system, you should give it a try.

Can anyone actually confirm if the TB combat is actually good?

if it's like the mod then it's better than rtwp

 

[Average Manatee]

Bestiary monsters get a DM to control them.

To my knowledge, every D&D-derived computer game uses RAW enemy stats. Kingmaker's the outlier by pumping them up to compensate for the better building/playing-ability of their more-powergaming-centric playtesters without considering that there are still those who would prefer an option that sticks to the base stats with no special advantages of disadvantages.

Not the case for infinity engine-based games, from what I found out recently: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/the-icewind-dale-series-thread.54564/page-101#post-6805157

Though in this case it seems basically an accident/oversight since its effectively random which enemies are RAW and which are RAW + enhanced by whatever flavor description text was given.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

DMs will regularly change the stats of enemies to fit the party on the fly anyways, it's not really the same.
Similar issue I have with things like e.g., 3e/PF weapon focus feat in cRPGs. At tabletop, a DM will alter drops to make sure your weapon focus isn't useless. In a cRPG, unless you've played it before, there's a good chance you may never encounter a single weapon worth using in your focus.
DDO(3.5e-ish homebrew) solved this by simply grouping like weapons(e.g., "Weapon Focus: Slashing"), which feels good enough to me.

I'd be impressed with a cRPG that's smart enough to acknowledge feat choices on player characters and slightly fudge the loot though.

A lot of cRPGs feel like they're designed by people who never actually DM'd a tabletop RPG

 

[Average Manatee]

DMs will regularly change the stats of enemies to fit the party on the fly anyways, it's not really the same.

Yeah, I'm not terribly concerned about deviations in stats. Its not like a sadistic DM can't find a way to abuse RAW in PnP if they wanted by pulling out esoteric monsters that are overpowered compared to their Challenge Rating, and players trying to do the same by rules lawyering ridiculous things is something DMs are allowed to shut down. In the end it all comes down to the DM giving you the challenge you want in PnP and the devs of cRPGs playtesting to make sure the difficulty is what they expect it to be.

Similar issue I have with things like e.g., 3e/PF weapon focus feat in cRPGs. At tabletop, a DM will alter drops to make sure your weapon focus isn't useless. In a cRPG, unless you've played it before, there's a good chance you may never encounter a single weapon worth using in your focus.
DDO(3.5e-ish homebrew) solved this by simply grouping like weapons(e.g., "Weapon Focus: Slashing"), which feels good enough to me.

I'd be impressed with a cRPG that's smart enough to acknowledge feat choices on player characters and slightly fudge the loot though.

A lot of cRPGs feel like they're designed by people who never actually DM'd a tabletop RPG

This is what a detailed crafting/enchanting system is normally for.

Though I still have to agree that the absurd amount of weapon categories in 3rd ed is ridiculous. Ohh, you're a master of swords with a length of 50"? Sorry, this one is 55", you're basically a useless retard more likely to injure yourself than others if you try to swing this sword.

 

[Pink Eye]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/handwraps/

 

[Pink Eye]

Wtf monk bros... I didn't know that was a thing...

 

[Whisper]

Roguey does it mean that you got serviceable internet connection now?

Better bandwidth restrictions than there were before, but they're still present. Wasteland 3, for example, is something that would take me 3 months, 2 if I temporarily upgraded to the most I can get (though in that case it'd just be two days if I started on the last day of the cycle and continued on the next).

1/ You are chaing subject. We talk that limited camp supplies just make phys.dps groups >>> magical dps groups.
Which is bad since it limits viable party setups, for no reason.

The reason is that you're not meant to play this system as a spell spammer.

I've looked it up and the tabletop consensus appears to be 2-4 before a rest https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?256211-GM-Advice-Number-of-encounters-before-resting. D&D 5e explicitly suggests 7 encounters before a long rest with two short rests in-between.

2. You also didnt play mage party on hardest difficulty. "Every 3-5" fights is a lot per rest for them. You are out of spells on hardest difficulty by end of 2nd fight. GL making 5 fights with 1 rest.

But for physical dps team 5 fights per rest is easily doable. Haste every fight and some heals after. Maybe throw 1-2 buffs more for hard battles, most of them last for full battle duration.

Then don't play on the hardest difficulty? They call it "Unfair" for a reason.

Once again, you are trying to change subject.


We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

add. "The reason is that you're not meant to play this system as a spell spammer". Its ok to play arrow spammer and sword-cut spammer, but not spell spammer. Bad design.
also. This is not about difficulty, this is about bad design. Limited rests hurt magical dps groups a lot, while doing almost nothing to physical dps groups.

Currently if you want to play Unfair and ignore limited rests mechanics, just roll 1 buffer who needs 1-2 spells per fight and physical DDs. You will do fine even with few rests. But make mage group and you are in trouble. This is a problem since it limits party setup, just for 0 reason to do so.

 

[Grauken]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

That's why monks were so feared on historical battlefields... wait

 

[rusty_shackleford]

We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

Good.
Magic users are always OP as shit in D&D-based cRPGs because they can just spam spells non-stop.

 

[Pink Eye]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

That's why monks were so feared on historical battlefields... wait

You fell for the spell caster's and weapon user's propaganda my dude.

 

[Grauken]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

That's why monks were so feared on historical battlefields... wait

You fell for the spell caster's and weapon user's propaganda my dude.

I've killed monks before you were born

 

[Pink Eye]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

That's why monks were so feared on historical battlefields... wait

You fell for the spell caster's and weapon user's propaganda my dude.

I've killed monks before you were born

Oh yeah?! OH YEAH! Post pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Whisper]

We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

Good.
Magic users are always OP as shit in D&D-based cRPGs because they can just spam spells non-stop.

Here is physical dps is OP, mostly due to limited heals mechanic. How it is different from magical dps being OP in other games? Same sh1t, both sides are unbalanced.

 

[Pink Eye]

On a completely unrelated note. I liked how Pierre put monks in Chalice 2. In Chalice 2 you can encounter vampire monks as an enemy. It made me pretty excited!

Spoiler

I wish Kingmaker had more variety to its encounter design. Seemed like you always fought the same type of enemies with the same classes. Where else Chalice 2 had so much more variety to its encounters.

 

[oldmanpaco]

We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

Good.
Magic users are always OP as shit in D&D-based cRPGs because they can just spam spells non-stop.

Here is physical dps is OP, mostly due to limited heals mechanic. How it is different from magical dps being OP in other games? Same sh1t, both sides are unbalanced.

You know this sort of argument is how we end up with Disco Elysium.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

Good.
Magic users are always OP as shit in D&D-based cRPGs because they can just spam spells non-stop.

Here is physical dps is OP, mostly due to limited heals mechanic. How it is different from magical dps being OP in other games? Same sh1t, both sides are unbalanced.

men that wear dresses should never be powerful

 

[Grauken]

That's why monks are best class. Fists don't need weapons to be effective.

That's why monks were so feared on historical battlefields... wait

You fell for the spell caster's and weapon user's propaganda my dude.

I've killed monks before you were born

Oh yeah?! OH YEAH! Post pics or it didn't happen.

around 1992

 

[Lawntoilet]

I'd be impressed with a cRPG that's smart enough to acknowledge feat choices on player characters and slightly fudge the loot though.

Swordflight does this, it should be more common practice.

How it is different from magical dps being OP in other games?

Because in other games where magic is better at everything, not just DPS, martials have basically no role at all. This is not the case with casters in something like Kingmaker, where casters are still very useful.

 

[Pink Eye]

God. I remember when Pathfinder: Kingmaker first released. If you didn't already play through the game and knew what weapons were available. You could trap yourself by choosing to focus on a weapon that either had no upgrades. Or had a few upgrades. Or even worse didn't have any upgrades until the end game. People would constantly complain about being stuck with a +1 weapon for half the game back then.

 

[Zayne]

We are talking that limited rests favour physical dps parties much more than magical dps.

Not really, because you're forgetting about buffs.
Physical dps parties still need lots and lots of buffs. Haste is a must-have for every non-trash encounter and you're also repeatedly casting shields, mirror visions, death protection, paralysis immunity, poison immunity, mind control immunity, legendary proportions, heroism and so on and so on.

My "physical" dps party consisted of MC(magus in first playthrough, vivisectionist in second one), Valerie, Amiri, Linzi, Harrim and Octavia. 2 full casters and 2 half-casters. And despite the fact that most of my damage came from swords and spears, I had to rest quite a lot, because without magical enhancements and protection you won't be able to deal any physical damage.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Absinthe]

I'm not really impressed with this review. Too little depth on what the gameplay and combat actually feels like, the writing seems worse than you give it credit for based on those screenshots, and the way the game does alignment-based dialogue options is pretty fucking bad. I also find it strange that you would rate a game as "I never want to play this again" but still call it a rough diamond. It makes you sound like you are afraid of running afoul of the Codex consensus, which is retarded, because here on the Codex we tend to be pretty big on telling it straight not being afraid of stepping on people's toes. Linzi is also a far more annoying companion than you give her credit for, as it is impossible to actually be rid of her and she has a bad tendency to not listen to you in addition to her overall inconsistent principles and irresponsible behavior, and she is far from the only character with a grating personality and stupid backstory. IIRC you need to pick evil alignment options at the start of the game to avoid recruiting her because otherwise, you're fucked and she will never leave. Many of your companions (such as Linzi, Valerie, Amiri, Tristain, and to a lesser extent Jaethal) also tend to have shit stats for their classes and you often feel like it would be better to multiclass them out of their starting classes (and even then there is only so much you can do in the face of trash stats). In general almost no one has a 20 in their primary stat, and this is extra annoying when you realize that PF: Kingmaker has bloated stats and more encounters per day for increased difficulty but then saddles you with trash builds for your prebuilt companions, so you should generally recruit custom companions if you want companions with actually decent builds.