Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

[MicoSelva]

I disagree that RtWP is an inherently bad combat system, but other than that, the review is spot on. So far, the best PoE review on The Codex. We will see if some future ones can top it.

What happened to Grunker, though? Did I miss something?

 

[felipepepe]

And yet, PoE is selling worse than D:OS. I still remember when people were predicting it would sell a million in its first month. Given how much of a slam dunk the whole project was, it's hilarious how underwhelming its sales performance is.

No surprise there. D:OS is a FUN co-op RPG, that you play with your bro and have many of those "man, the other day I teleported a chicken into a pool of lava" or "I killed the Mayor just when Bob was gonna return his quest to him, hahaha" stories.

PoE has nothing of that. It's a forgettable game, that no one is talking about anymore (except us), and where even reforging the Legendary Blade of the Endless Path - an entirely scripted quest - feels underwhelming and boring. There's no "your story" in PoE, everyone plays the game, kills everything and that's it. Maybe you choose a different class, a different faction on Act 2 or role-play [Stoic], but who the hell cares? Even here on the Codex stories don't go much more than "I had a hard time at Raedric's Hold".

Now compare that with how people still talk about fighting Kangaxx, having a baby with Aerie, quoting Minsc & Boo, laughing at Lilarcor, owning a Planar Sphere, slaying a dragon and finding the Holy Avenger, turning into a Slayer, disguising as a drow, escaping from a mindflayer prison, resurrecting Amoen from the dead, crafting an armor made of human skin, making weird multi-class solo runs... that's why BG2 is a classic and PoE will never be - it's a memorable game.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

IE games sold a lot in their day, PoE got much more positive media attention (and better reviews) than D:OS, Obsidian is a much better known brand than Larian. These are objective and quantifiable factors, as opposed to the vague speculation about how much art style impacts sales of RPGS. I thought my estimate was conservative, and I still expected it to sell more than D:OS in the same timeframe. Honestly, I still don't understand why it doesn't. Maybe we're overestimating the size of the residual IE fandom?

EDIT: Actually, you may be right, felipepepe, that it's ultimately the lack of strong word-of-mouth. Even during the current Steam sale, PoE only barely outsold D:OS, with both sporting the same discount and a very similar price.

 

[Excidium II]

Now compare that with how people still talk about fighting Kangaxx, having a baby with Aerie, quoting Minsc & Boo, laughing at Lilarcor, owning a Planar Sphere, slaying a dragon and finding the Holy Avenger, turning into a Slayer, disguising as a drow, escaping from a mindflayer prison, resurrecting Amoen from the dead, crafting an armor made of human skin, making weird multi-class solo runs... that's why BG2 is a classic and PoE will never be - it's a memorable game.

of course a game released 3 months ago doesn't have the benefit of nostalgia

 

[Infinitron]

Besides the factors already mentioned Larian also had the advantage of simply being the first "big" oldschool RPG to be released. And it also delivered quality, so people kept on playing it and talking about it.

Similarly, I remember the first Shadowrun game had a lot of people playing it when it come out, but it was a weak first effort and a small/limited game, so that didn't last long.

 

[Rivmusique]

Now compare that with how people still talk about fighting Kangaxx, having a baby with Aerie, quoting Minsc & Boo, laughing at Lilarcor, owning a Planar Sphere, slaying a dragon and finding the Holy Avenger, turning into a Slayer, disguising as a drow, escaping from a mindflayer prison, resurrecting Amoen from the dead*, crafting an armor made of human skin, making weird multi-class solo runs... that's why BG2 is a classic and PoE will never be - it's a memorable game.

You make it sound shit.

*Imoen or Anomen? I assumed Anomen.

 

[Crooked Bee]

D:OS is just easier to pick up and almost instantly have fun with, not to mention the co-op. I believe that is a quantifiable factor, since it means that D:OS' audience is much, much broader than oldschool RPG fans or even just RPG fans.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Also, D:OS isn't a worse version of anything that already existed (It's nothing like Ultima 7). Even the most ardent fans of PE would say it's a worse version of their favorite IE game.

 

[felipepepe]

of course a game released 3 months ago doesn't have the benefit of nostalgia

And what there is to be nostalgic about PoE? What people will remember fondly about it?

 

[Mastermind]

Now compare that with how people still talk about fighting Kangaxx, having a baby with Aerie, quoting Minsc & Boo, laughing at Lilarcor, owning a Planar Sphere, slaying a dragon and finding the Holy Avenger, turning into a Slayer, disguising as a drow, escaping from a mindflayer prison, resurrecting Amoen from the dead*, crafting an armor made of human skin, making weird multi-class solo runs... that's why BG2 is a classic and PoE will never be - it's a memorable game.

You make it sound shit.

*Imoen or Anomen? I assumed Anomen.

Your love interest gets kidnapped and turned by vampires. So it's Anomen.

ITT we find out felipepepe likes to romance dudes in bioware games. I guess the recent crop of them were practically made for him.

 

[bozia2012]

Well I got interested in PoE story at start with the Hollowborn thing, but it quickly faded with turning to Chosen One plot and Hollowborn being left as a afterthought. That alone would not have been a bad thing if the writing was good but its mediocre at best. A good story can make me ignore poor combat, problem with PoE is that it was focused on atrocious combat but the writing wasnt there either, something I didnt expect from Obsidian.

D:OS has its own problems, poor writing from the start and combat that becomes very easy later on. But the mechanics are there, diversity of enemy and enemy encounters are there, it just needs a bit of tuning while PoE needs complete overhaul of entire game.

In the end both games are focused mainly at combat, one game is good at it one is horribly bad. Maybe you can find some pleasure from PoE withing its writing but to me its far too little to compensate for far too big flaws.

Yeah, Hollowborn was what kept me playing, I was hoping for more, it never came. D:OS didn't even give me that hope. I can stomach a lot if the writing/setting is there.

I think that both are decent with brilliant bits, D:OS was more tiring though.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

D:OS is just easier to pick up and almost instantly have fun with, not to mention the co-op. I believe that is a quantifiable factor, since it means that D:OS' audience is much, much broader than oldschool RPG fans or even just RPG fans.

On the other hand, the meat of the game in D:OS is rather challenging TB combat - many reviews and player impressions around launch made mention of this, and a lot of people in the NeoFAG thread, for instance, would turn difficulty down to easy. The combat, even on lower difficulty, requires you to actually understand way more mechanics than PoE combat does in order to achieve any measure of success, I think. D:OS has a pretty brutal beginning, all in all.

 

[Crooked Bee]

D:OS has a pretty brutal beginning, all in all.

Brutal, but fun.

 

[Infinitron]

Extreme analogy: Pokemon outsells NWN2

 

[Excidium II]

of course a game released 3 months ago doesn't have the benefit of nostalgia

And what there is to be nostalgic about PoE? What people will remember fondly about it?

Raedric's hold? Durance conversations? Climbing down a kobold sacrificial well expecting just shitty loot and being face to face with a big ass dragon 2 dungeon levels below? Shrug

I stopped playing the game to wait for patches but I'm sure PoE has comparable things to reminisce like carrying a baby in your inventory

 

[LeStryfe79]

Extreme analogy: Pokemon outsells NWN2

 

[felipepepe]

D:OS has a pretty brutal beginning, all in all.

Brutal, but fun.

And people may willing tackle the challenge to get more fun. Or even come for the fun and stay for the challenge. Unlike Obsidian, Larian respects player's intelligence, and so far that payed off. Besides, there's always easy mode.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Felipepe just reminded me of the Endless Paths of Shit Nua, a mega dungeon full of awesomeness. You have a level full of kobold encounters, another level full of kobold encounters then a level with beetles and one with slimes and trolls. Finally you find an NPC that wants to talk to you! What does he want? He wants you to kill all the other mobs on the level. Brilliant. After 4 more levels of encounters you will meet another NPC who's willing to talk, the head vampire. What's his bidding - wait for it, it's good - of course: all the other vampires on the level need to be killed. Bedazzling. That's some seriously glorious stuff going on there,on par with Watcher's Keep, the encounters at the final seals, the deck of many things, the machine of Lum the Mad, the maze level with all those demons and dead magic zones. Yes, just nostalgia.

 

[Roguey]

True, Roguey had already been trolling the Codex for years with Sawyer's inane ramblings. However, I don't think it was obvious from the start of the kickstarter campaign that he'd have the final say on the project. Him and Brennecke where annouced as co-project directors iirc.

You saw Brennecke play Icewind Dale 2 during the Kickstarter campaign, right? I'm also positive I posted http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/47858-mask-of-the-betrayer/page__st__140#entry801455 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/47858-mask-of-the-betrayer/page__st__160#entry801497.

 

[Infinitron]

Brennecke was a producer, not a co-director. I remember after the game was Kickstarted he quickly receded into more of a programming role and Brandon Adler took over production stuff.

 

[Roguey]

Unlike Obsidian, Larian respects player's intelligence, and so far that payed off.

Paid off for Obsidian too, given its reception on both metacritic and Steam. Are we going down the path of "more sales = better than?" :D

Given their designers and play testers, Obsidian gives player intelligence the respect it deserves.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Extreme analogy: Pokemon outsells NWN2

Extreme and not very good, which you should know without me telling you. Something like, say Persona 4 outselling NWN2 (not actually sure if that's the case) would work better, imo.

 

[Rivmusique]

Your love interest gets kidnapped and turned by vampires. So it's Anomen.

ITT we find out felipepepe likes to romance dudes in bioware games. I guess the recent crop of them were practically made for him.

Was willing to give the benefit of the doubt as resurrected could just mean a generic trip to a temple after a fight. Use of the search tool turns up:

In fact, if I were a BG2 fanatic, I'd start a "PoE2 demands" thread on the Obsidian forums right now, asking for mage duels, asking for multiple strongholds, etc.

Who would ask multiple strongholds when they couldn't do one right? Mage duels ain't gonna happen with that magic system, and I'm not confident on their ability to even understand the genius of Baldur's Gate II itemization.

Based on what we got, I would ask them to make companion quests & interactions more meaningful. In BG2 Misnc could become Aeris protector, Edwin would turn into a woman, Keldorn could retire, Amoen could pass or fail the paladin's test and them even become a vampire and die (and resurrected later)... plus all the party banter & alignment restrictions.

But Josh "no failure" Sawyer would never allow a party member to abandon players, and they don't even have MCA anymore...

The awful truth.

 

[felipepepe]

Of course not, I replay Baldur's Gate 2 every single time the same way, because I'm very worried about how a vidya gaem will represent my sexuality.

BTW, Garrus is the best waifu, only losers go for Liara.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Unlike Obsidian, Larian respects player's intelligence, and so far that payed off.

Paid off for Obsidian too, given its reception on both metacritic and Steam. Are we going down the path of "more sales = better than?" :D

Given their designers and play testers, Obsidian gives player intelligence the respect it deserves.

Maybe they should hire non-retarded testers?
But of course you can't do that when your target audience is retards.

But someday... SOMEDAY... they will make that awesome great RPG mark my words! Lord British will design the systems, Sawyer will write it, Feargus will name it and Avellone will pose for the box cover.