Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

[dukeofwhales]

nobody has given Obsidian the message that they're onto something with PotD, as felipepepe discovered, and that the game needs to be more like that.

Where can I read about this? I assume it's somewhere in the Sensuki shill review dramallama thread which I have skimmed but seriously fuck reading it all thoroughly

 

[markec]

Ah, well, you've convinced me, mate. A game that manages to be mediocre at everything but environments is 4 signs greater than the game with not only vastly superior gameplay, but gameplay head-and-shoulders above the rest of the genre.

Depends. I was delighted with D:OS, but there's no denying that it is also very easy (cakewalk on any difficulty once you learn the system), it is extremely limited in builds, and so on. Its real strengths are in the wacky stuff you can do in combat (which helps it remain fun even when it's trivially easy), and the same wackiness in quest solutions. Those strengths are so good they make up for terrible WoW art & the terrible spam writing, which is testament to how unique and strong those areas are.

To make D:OS good you need only to rebalance the system a bit, to make PoE good you would need to redesign almost every single enemy encounter, loot, and add some actually interesting abilities both to your classes and monsters.

 

[bozia2012]

To make D:OS good you need only to rebalance the system a bit, add some decent writing and plot/characters people would give a fuck about. Also - make the mid/end-game more interesting, because adding immortal enemies is the only new thing that happnes after first 10h.

But yeah, PoE had fucked up combat.

 

[markec]

To make D:OS good you need only to rebalance the system a bit, add some decent writing and plot/characters people would give a fuck about. Also - make the mid/end-game more interesting, because adding immortal enemies is the only new thing that happnes after first 10h.

But yeah, PoE had fucked up combat.

And 80% of the game is combat, sure is fun playing that PoE. Especially on PotD where it only manages to last longer so you can savor the fun.

 

[Infinitron]

On one hand, just about every RPG in this century (and many RPGs before that) have suffered from this problem: that they are dialled down far too easy, so that all the complexity and interestingness their systems may have possessed become drained out by the back door. Consider how in Shadowrun, enemies on all difficulties attack only once per turn even when you know they have the actions remaining. Think about that. That is an incredible castration of difficulty with exponential repercussions. POE suffers from the same, such that a highest difficulty game, and/or ones with house rules, can be much more fun and tactically varied. On this point, I can't foresee much improvement; look at all the people who complain Easy is too hard! It would be suicidal to make the whole game harder. My solution would be super-customisable difficulty sliders, but I don't know if they'll do it.

On the other hand, 'other RPGs did it' is no excuse, and there are also ways for systems to become more relevant for the player without racking up the difficulty that POE should have explored, and that I hope POE2 does explore. This is something that I think Obsidian will improve, and if they don't, they have no fucking excuse for sucking. Why are status effect animations so ethereal that nobody even notices? Why are they simultaneoulsy made so easy to hit (thanks to graze system's bad synergy with status effects) and also not significant enough in some (but not all) cases? Why don't more monsters have special abilities such that they are defined by their status effects (like Shades and Crystal Spiders already are)? Why aren't there enough human parties or other set pieces where the creatures are set up with synergistic spells / effects / builds? Why aren't there any special situations like no-rest situations or anti-magic zones? In that aspect, I expect improvements with each expansion pack and sequel, just as IWD2 tried to introduce crazy set pieces that older IE games could only dream of.

Speaking of Shadowrun, that's a game that also manages to achieve what modicum of difficulty it has on its highest difficulty level by bloating defense values - to-hit chances just become very low.

And you know, it does the job. Going from DMS to DF where they seem to have reduced hit chances across the board, the gameplay just feels a lot better. Sometimes the crude solution does work. Doesn't make it ideal, but it's unwise to dismiss it out of hand.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Good review, I wonder who'll be reviewing PoE next.

BTW what happened to Grunker?

 

[Jools]

Proper codex content should be more in-depth than this, it just glosses over the systems and focuses on secondary stuff like the setting, C&C and what not. About systems, VD is just vague (ITZ GREAT) and Grunker repeats the blurb at the back of the box, calling the game balanced and full of viable non-trap choices which is some intense bullshit specially if you consider they played the game back in march/early april

There has been an intense post-release effort to patch the game, with many sweeping balance changes. A review released this late to the party should have taken that into account but since it doesn't talk about the systems...As it is it's just another obsolete review that is only featured because of the ongoing effort to invalidate roxor's review by you-know-who

Looking above you that's not exactly what I'm seeing right now

I didn't read all of them but, let's a random comment (the one idrectly above mine):

Also, "SECONDARY STUFF LIKE THE SETTINGS, C&C"? Not sure if cheap trolling of just burrhurt beyond hyperspace.

At some point I shoudl read the whole thread.

 

[bozia2012]

And 80% of the game is combat, sure is fun playing that PoE. Especially on PotD where it only manages to last longer so you can savor the fun.

At least I got interested in PoE plot, while D:OS was hurr durr Pontius Pirate (lol get it?). Combat was only fun at start, later you would just alter 2-3 tactics based on enemy invuls.

 

[Infinitron]

Proper codex content should be more in-depth than this, it just glosses over the systems and focuses on secondary stuff like the setting, C&C and what not. About systems, VD is just vague (ITZ GREAT) and Grunker repeats the blurb at the back of the box, calling the game balanced and full of viable non-trap choices which is some intense bullshit specially if you consider they played the game back in march/early april

There has been an intense post-release effort to patch the game, with many sweeping balance changes. A review released this late to the party should have taken that into account but since it doesn't talk about the systems...As it is it's just another obsolete review that is only featured because of the ongoing effort to invalidate roxor's review by you-know-who

Looking above you that's not exactly what I'm seeing right now

I didn't read all of them but, let's a random comment (the one idrectly above mine):

Also, "SECONDARY STUFF LIKE THE SETTINGS, C&C"? Not sure if cheap trolling of just burrhurt beyond hyperspace.

At some point I shoudl read the whole thread.

Scratch that, it seems Excidium actually doesn't hate the game. He just wants to be edgy about it anyway. Rock on, Excidium.

 

[thesheeep]

Well written Review, indeed.
And one that I can almost fully agree with. Finally!

The only thing I feel missing is some details or examples. Why are encounters so bad?
Why would the character/combat system work in TB? Which I seriously doubt, as the meaninglessness of almost every decision in character building would not disappear with that.
And why is Grunker a ghost? :D

 

[Volrath]

The review calls the game a retarded abomination, frustrating in the sense of being wasted potential, boring, lacking, and a whole list of etcs but then it calls it Best kickstarter RPG? i chuckled. having DF, sits and D:OS that statement is stupid.

If anything this review is even more nagative than roxors in a lot of ways, but also less helpful. There are some things wrong in the review tho, the character system does offer trap choices, its just that your choices have close to 0 impact on the performance of your character or its ability to stay effective. Levels are all that matter, etc. Overall decent i guess.

I'm pretty sure that statement was written before SitS was released, just fyi.

Still no excuse for ranking PoE higher than D:OS. Codexia is truly artfag central, on this we must finally agree. If it has 2D backgrounds, its GOTY.

PoE >>>> D:OS.
The fact that D:OS has a nice turn-based combat does not make it better than PoE, because that's the only thing D:OS does right.

World interactivity motherfucker, do you know it?

Also a lot more options to handle quests, only limited by your own imagination. You know: ROLEPLAYING.

 

[Excidium II]

Wanted to quote toro with previous post

Proper codex content should be more in-depth than this, it just glosses over the systems and focuses on secondary stuff like the setting, C&C and what not. About systems, VD is just vague (ITZ GREAT) and Grunker repeats the blurb at the back of the box, calling the game balanced and full of viable non-trap choices which is some intense bullshit specially if you consider they played the game back in march/early april

There has been an intense post-release effort to patch the game, with many sweeping balance changes. A review released this late to the party should have taken that into account but since it doesn't talk about the systems...As it is it's just another obsolete review that is only featured because of the ongoing effort to invalidate roxor's review by you-know-who

Looking above you that's not exactly what I'm seeing right now

I didn't read all of them but, let's a random comment (the one idrectly above mine):

Also, "SECONDARY STUFF LIKE THE SETTINGS, C&C"? Not sure if cheap trolling of just burrhurt beyond hyperspace.

It's a baldur's gate clone

Are you dumb or what

 

[Sensuki]

Excidium is back. All is right in the world

 

[Jaedar]

You are failing your gods Excidium II.

 

[roshan]

This review was actually quite well written, and made for an entertaining read (VD can fucking write), but obviously going out of it's way to whitewash the game. Grunker sounds like someone who knows everything is shit, but has deluded himself into believing that he actually had fun with this hollow, boring, soulless (lol) game. Vault Dweller obviously found the game shitty enough to quit playing, but can't bring himself to say it. The result is a very entertaining and well written fluff piece, propagandistic not because they want to promote the game, but because they can't really bring themselves into calling it like it is.

 

[Sensuki]

Something like that, yeah.

 

[jewboy]

Superb writing as always by the guy who lives in a vault. Again makes me look forward to reading the dialogue in AoD. In terms of the neverending TB vs RT debate it bothers me that people hardly ever mention that the IE games weren't just simple RTwP like say Morrowind where pausing the action is all you can do. They were Real Time with AutoPause available at which time you could engage in various actions with the clock stopped. The game would automatically pause at the end of each...what? Round. Does PoE know about this thing called a 'round'? Assuming that you actually engaged the "pause at the end of each round" option you ended up with something that was like an admittedly less elegant and kludgey TB system. No it wasn't truly TB, but it at least tried to be a little.

Unfortunately, just as I feared, The Sawyer was too much of a purist to put up with that nonsense. No 'rounds' for him. Just autopausing at various intervals. A fundamental flaw imo. Like many here I do believe that TB play is inherently superior to RT of any flavour because it is the proper way to engage in the sort of tactical combat that I for one seek in cRPGs. Engaging, tactical combat within good encounter design that requires actual thought and planning set within a deep, well written, and engaging story is what I want. Sawyer criticized BG2s system of spell and counter-spell as being like Rock, Paper Scissors but it was fun and his system is not. I believe he was poking at the simplicity of Rock, Paper, Scissors, but if that was his criticism he should have come up with a more complex system rather than tossing out the idea completely and going full Dragon Age on us.

 

[Perkel]

Good review.

I think Serpent of Staglands is antithesis of PoE and shows how exactly what is wrong with it.

 

[jewboy]

It's a baldur's gate clone

I'm not a fan of BG1, but let's at least be fair. It's more of a Dragon Age clone. Trying to compare it to any IE game is really a serious stretch. Such comparisons have inspired me to go back and play IWD1 right after I started playing PoE and I just don't see how the two games are comparable at all. In no way is it a clone of any IE game. I've never been able to finish IWD probably due to the lame backstory that didn't hold my attention but the combat is so much more fun than in PoE.

 

[Israfael]

Spot-on, as usual. I wonder why they decided to stray off their path and go to this IWD clone /BG1 road knowing that their combat implementations were consistently met with scorn and were objectively (as far as we can speak of) mediocre or even bad. Thanks to this combination (blandness + generic bad style MMO combat) I gulped MotB in basically 3 evenings while I managed to reach to the Watchers' castle and stopped there atm in like 2 months. Even wasteland 2, despite the fact that I really hate square grid, was (and is) much more fun for me.

 

[Sensuki]

Fuck autopause lol.

It's a baldur's gate clone

Trying to compare it to any IE game is really a serious stretch. Such comparisons have inspired me to go back and play IWD1 right after I started playing PoE and I just don't see how the two games are comparable at all. In no way is it a clone of any IE game. I've never been able to finish IWD probably due to the lame backstory that didn't hold my attention but the combat is so much more fun than in PoE.

This, although it is an IE clone in presentation - UI, visuals (for the most part) and controls, just not gameplay. I feel the same that playing Icewind Dale and Pillars of Eternity are worlds apart in how they play.

 

[Zero Credibility]

One more review, eh? I must be in minority here, but I found this review to be disappointing. Compared to the original review I can't help but find it way too short, unpolished and kind of unfinished really.

 

[Excidium II]

mediocre game in a mediocre genre sounds about right

Such comparisons have inspired me to go back and play IWD1 right after I started playing PoE and I just don't see how the two games are comparable at all. In no way is it a clone of any IE game. I've never been able to finish IWD probably due to the lame backstory that didn't hold my attention but the combat is so much more fun than in PoE.

This, although it is an IE clone in presentation - UI, visuals (for the most part) and controls, just not gameplay. I feel the same that playing Icewind Dale and Pillars of Eternity are worlds apart in how they play.

Are you people 4 real

 

[Mrowak]

Excellent review, Grunker -bro and Vault Dweller. Pretty much sumarizes my feels about the game. It's definitely overhyped, but decent romp.

 

[Zeriel]

I regret posting in this thread, now I have to cope with the constant alerts about how Codex User #369 really wants to discuss how wondrous Pillars of Eternity is.