Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

[Black]

Grunker does a good job.

 

[Jaesun]

...also, what's up with Grunker... what did I miss?

He is busy and probably won't be back for a while (except to update his LP thread).

 

[Forest Dweller]

I'm so glad we finally have the real review now.

 

[Mastermind]

Weaknesses - The very philosophy of adding a pause to a RT system is akin to whittling away the corners of a square peg so it fits in a round hole. It addresses the problem of difficulty interfacing in RT, but doesn't get to the root of the problem. In taking away a reliance on player dexterity, a challenge that is vital to RT systems is now gone.

Nope. Player dexterity is not vital to RT systems. Saint Autisticus has the same problem you do so I'm not sure how quoting him changes anything. He just bloviates longer to say the same thing so TBH I'd rather you just wrote out your own thoughts instead (unless you're secretly him or something, in which case you need to cut down on this shit).

In order to effectively compensate for this, there needs to be a challenge in the tactical play, however, that too is compromised by the inability to effectively utilise terrain and cover, or attack while moving, which greatly limits many actions that would commonly take place within a real world tactical simulation.

You can't utilize terrain and cover or attack while moving in RTwP games? What the fuck am I reading?

Also the nature of pausing to issue orders and then watching those orders get carried out seems entirely too passive

How the fuck is this any different from what you do in TB games?

while on the flipside of the coin, you are constantly pausing which serves to eliminate most of the advantages of a RT system.

"Most of the advantages", which of course he doesn't list because the only advantage it eliminates is one better suited for action games than ones with any significant strategic component.

Myths

-

"RT with pause has just as much underlying complexity as TB" - Sure, if both systems are exceedingly simple. TB permits the integration of many more features, and has less limiting factors. While RT systems with or without pause have many limitations imposed by their very nature, TB is limited only by the ability to maintain player interest.

All of this is false but since it's just a vague statement there's nothing to respond to here. Many more features, less limiting factors. Many limitations. Etc. What features? What limiting factors? What limitations? Only Autisticus knows and the knowledge is dead with him.

"RT with pause is better because the player has control of it's pacing" - The player does get to control the pace of the combat, however the players ability to effectively judge and weigh up their own actions against those of their opponent is no longer carefully measured.

Sure it is.

If a similar system were introduced to the another essential RPG element that relies on discrete progression, ie levelling, the whole game would be worse off for it. If the player were able to develop their character at any time, without any measurement of level, the character system would seem diluted, and the reward/achievement of reaching the next level has gone by the wayside.

No it wouldn't. VtM doesn't have this problem. Neither did Dungeon Lords, even if it was a shitty game in many ways. Spending XP works just as well as gaining levels. Maybe even better since I can get my progression fix more often, even if it is in smaller increments.

There's no reason to view combat any differently. Surviving to the next turn can be an achievement in a difficult encounter, and most players derive a great deal of satisfaction from the knowledge that that all important next step of the way has been taken.

I don't. In all strategic encounters I derive a great deal of satisfaction from putting myself in an advantageous position, squeezing more efficiency out of an encounter than the opponent, or turning around a bad situation. Whether it happens over one turn or a few seconds inbetween pauses after I give out a set of commands makes no difference to me. Autisticus simply continues to confuse his personal enjoyment of TB with a universal deficiency in RTwP.

 

[Excidium II]

Now that said VD/grunker did a damn good review there, thats what codex content should be.

Proper codex content should be more in-depth than this, it just glosses over the systems and focuses on secondary stuff like the setting, C&C and what not. About systems, VD is just vague (ITZ GREAT) and Grunker repeats the blurb at the back of the box, calling the game balanced and full of viable non-trap choices which is some intense bullshit specially if you consider they played the game back in march/early april

There has been an intense post-release effort to patch the game, with many sweeping balance changes. A review released this late to the party should have taken that into account but since it doesn't talk about the systems...As it is it's just another obsolete review that is only featured because of the ongoing effort to invalidate roxor's review by you-know-who

 

[Jools]

Interesting review. Let the shills be butthurt, now.

*grabs popcorn and sits back*

 

[Infinitron]

Interesting review. Let the shills be butthurt, now.

*grabs popcorn and sits back*

Looking above you that's not exactly what I'm seeing right now

 

[toro]

How many reviews do we need in order to articulate the truth?

PoE is such a failure is not worth one complete play-through. Obsidian should kill the franchise asap and re-use the engine for a proper TB game. Additionally they should fire Sawyer or demote him to a position where he cannot harm the new project.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Quests have multiple solutions and occasional consequences but the premise is often idiotic or downright leftist.

WCDS pls go

Really, wtf does that mean?

Or someone could just read the first review for the in-depth information

And ruin the running gag? Never.

Had to walk around the apartment a bit after reading that

And had to rejoin the Codex, apparently.

I think it was meant to alleviate the aching.

in before brazilian butthurt

 

[Tigranes]

I would point out the 4 million dollars was an opportunity to get ahead and save something for the future, provided they have other work going on at the same time.

I believe it was nothing but a bridge to last until the next publishers' payment/contract.

That doesn't make sense even from the perspective of a greedy capitalist, though. Everybody will tell you, developing your own IP is key to survival, independence and growth. IP, IP, IP.

I wouldn't know, but here are the facts as I see them:

- Obsidian is on the verge of layoffs; they start a KS (the effort isn't there at first) and get 4 mil
- Feargus stated in the past that Obsidian's burn rate was a mil a month, so the money they got was good for 4-8 months not 2.5 years.
- Instead of pouring all their effort into this new IP as we all hoped, they work on something else. If there is one thing Obsidian always did well it's the dialogues and unique settings/twists of familiar settings. I'm truly surprised that they fucked it up so badly. The only logical explanation is that this game was never their priority.
- I don't know what Obsidian's average contract is these days but if it's 15-25 mil, for argument's sake, it's easy to see why a 4 mil game wouldn't be at the top of their list. InXile is smaller and faster and can take advantage of KS and live off it for the next 20 years. Obsidian is too heavy and too publisher-oriented.
- Avellon left Obsidian for a reason.

Um. POE was never meant to occupy the entirety of Obsidian. Not unless they laid off 80 people. And Obsidian has never used its entire workforce (which is what results in 1 mil burn rate / month) on a single project ever since they got to this size. You make it sound like they lied to us, and then all your other conjectures are built on top of this weird nonreality.

What I do agree with you is that they should have had MCA play a key role in the writing. I've actually been uneasy about MCA's role for ever since WL2 - I don't want the dude writing novellas and writing 2 areas in every fucking RPG out there, I want him to buckle down and create a game. And POE should have been that game. Like it or not MCA's style is a defining trait of Obsidian writing, and we see how POE is worse off without his talent (plus other aspects, e.g. how the plot was apparently written by committee rather than by a single writer).

 

[Morality Games]

- Obsidian is on the verge of layoffs; they start a KS (the effort isn't there at first) and get 4 mil
- Feargus stated in the past that Obsidian's burn rate was a mil a month, so the money they got was good for 4-8 months not 2.5 years.
- Instead of pouring all their effort into this new IP as we all hoped, they work on something else. If there is one thing Obsidian always did well it's the dialogues and unique settings/twists of familiar settings. I'm truly surprised that they fucked it up so badly. The only logical explanation is that this game was never their priority.
- I don't know what Obsidian's average contract is these days but if it's 15-25 mil, for argument's sake, it's easy to see why a 4 mil game wouldn't be at the top of their list. InXile is smaller and faster and can take advantage of KS and live off it for the next 20 years. Obsidian is too heavy and too publisher-oriented.
- Avellon left Obsidian for a reason.

Trying to read into why Avellone left Obsidian is a labyrinth of mirrors. If Josh Sawyer's nervous quip about the owners of Obsidian in the PoE documentary is any indication, it was the result of a longstanding disagreement that didn't have a lot to do with PoE specifically, but long term management issues and the entire organization of the company. It's quite plausible that Avellone has no interest in working on a game like Kotor 2 or Planescape: Torment ever again, MMOs or even RPGs in general. I can't help but feel as though if Avellone had wanted to lead a project like that he would have spearheaded Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Ellef]

- Avellone left Obsidian for a reason.

I don't like saying 'this', but this.

What the fuck is Obsidian without MCA? A neverending cycle of visionless games to pay the bills because they're not willing to downsize into a company that is able to focus on RPGs.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

''I’ve read many discussions where people argue to death over things like the engagement system or encounter design, forgetting the bigger picture: RTwP is flawed by default.''

Thankfully this opinion worthy of a cretin that tries to pass himself as smart and sophisticated is becoming more and more unpopular.

Glad it came before the end, I didn't have to read the rest of this short piece of opinion that would like to sound smart and insightful.

The heart of your review is so underwhelming.

 

[Ulminati]

Really? I can't always tell when you're fucking with people, so I assume you're always fucking with people just to be on the safe side.

Considering MCA and Zeits aren't at obsidian anymore, they'll never make another Mask of the Betrayer. you're in for more boring generic Hŵrpa dŵrp with sawyerian banalshitboring combat and copypasted encounters that provide no interesting challenge. And more of that "deep and rewarding" keep upgrade gameplay judging from the E3 trailer. Because the keep was apparently the best part of PoE.

But it'll have pretty backgrounds so there's that.

 

[Athelas]

Really? I can't always tell when you're fucking with people, so I assume you're always fucking with people just to be on the safe side.

Considering MCA and Zeits aren't at obsidian anymore, they'll never make another Mask of the Betrayer.

Eric seems like a cool dude. Recently, there was discussion about something else I liked that he was accredited for. Can't remember what... (edit: something to do with Mask of the Betrayer)
Glad to have him on PoE in any case.

Eric is terrific. On MotB, he was the designer for the Ashenwood and Thaymount modules. He also designed how spirit-eating worked, so if you liked that mechanic, he's the biggest reason why. (Those who disliked the whole spirit-eater element of the gameplay should aim their barbs at me, however.)

 

[Shadenuat]

Roxor's review is better and more in depth. This one is a bit disjunctioned. No Great Secret from Grunker as why system actually sucks while we are all wrong - it's flat, it's samy, the criticisms are actually very close to what Spoony said in his old videos about 4th edition D&D.
Still a nice read.

 

[Excidium II]

PoE is good for what it is

It is a RTWP fantasy romp copying the IE titles of old but with less degeneracy and is a p. decent effort at that, apart from the horrible balance issues and bugs which are being slowly patched. Perhaps a bit too slowly but we all know here PoE is a side-project maintained by a skeleton crew that is probably overworked from double-dipping on the tank MMO

It's easy to compare PoE to the ideal CRPG and dreams of past obsidian classics which everyone seems to forget were p. banal apart from the writing/c&c

 

[Ulminati]

Grunker thinks GURPS is the messiah of pen&paper. His judgement on RPG systems should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Applypoison]

After perusing this fine work of literary art, we are only left with one crucial question to answer: What can change the nature of a man? When you press a button in PoE, do you get something awesome in return?

 

[tuluse]

Roxor's review is better and more in depth. This one is a bit disjunctioned. No Great Secret from Grunker as why system actually sucks while we are all wrong - it's flat, it's samy, the criticisms are actually very close to what Spoony said in his old videos about 4th edition D&D.
Still a nice read.

It's not samey at all though. Classes feel very distinct.

 

[Jaesun]

RPG Watch: The Codex seems to be facinated by Pillars of Eternity. After Darth Roxor and Decado a third one is now released. This time Vault Dweller and Grunker analyze the game

 

[felipepepe]

My main concern ATM is that nobody has given Obsidian the message that they're onto something with PotD, as felipepepe discovered, and that the game needs to be more like that.

I don't have much hope in this regard, honestly. They aren't that stupid, they know what system they have. VD's review is spot on, this is a game made to sell, to be familiar and accessible, where people can't fail. The biggest difference in PotD is that you are required to adapt and respond to what's going on or you will wipe & have to reload. And that is bad - too bad for Obsidian's intended audience. So they intentionally watered the game's combat until nothing mattered.

When fighting Ghouls in PotD, I had to spread my characters to avoid the enemies' poisonous vomit attack, as it would severely wound everyone. That's as basic as you can get, even MMOs now consider things like "don't stand in the fire" to be basic player knowledge, yet Obsidian didn't allow players in their old-school RPG to experience that. Stay in or out of the hazard, it barely matters, you'll win anyway. At most you'll lose one or two party menders, but they'll be back in full health after the battle is over.

As result, PoE has a 90 metascore, very positive reviews on Steam and people like SuperBunnyHop calling it all kinds of awesome, praising the "tactical combat". Do you really think their priority now is making the game harder and more demanding?

What's left is to be happy that we at least got the PotD difficulty, which shows that someone out there still think of the children grognards. But I doubt we'll ever got more than that.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

RPG Watch: The Codex seems to be facinated by Pillars of Eternity. After Darth Roxor and Decado a third one is now released. This time Vault Dweller and Grunker analyze the game

Kids are usually fascinated by disgusting things.

 

[Turok]

Excellent review, very accurate.

 

[tuluse]

I don't have much hope in this regard, honestly. They aren't that stupid, they know what system they have. VD's review is spot on, this is a game made to sell, to be familiar and accessible, where people can't fail. The biggest difference in PotD is that you are required to adapt and respond to what's going on or you will wipe & have to reload. And that is bad - too bad for Obsidian's intended audience. So they intentionally watered the game's combat until nothing mattered.

When fighting Ghouls in PotD, I had to spread my characters to avoid the enemies' poisonous vomit attack, as it would severely wound everyone. That's as basic as you can get, even MMOs now consider things like "don't stand in the fire" to be basic player knowledge, yet Obsidian didn't allow players in their old-school RPG to experience that. Stay in or out of the hazard, it barely matters, you'll win anyway. At most you'll lose one or two party menders, but they'll be back in full health after the battle is over.

As result, PoE has a 90 metascore, very positive reviews on Steam and people like SuperBunnyHop calling it all kinds of awesome, praising the "tactical combat". Do you really think their priority now is making the game harder and more demanding?

What's left is to be happy that we at least got the PotD difficulty, which shows that someone out there still think of the children grognards. But I doubt we'll ever got more than that.

Well the thing is that easy and normal will always be watered down, but maybe hard can get some of the stuff PotD had. I know I expected hard to be the intended way to play with the others being watered down compared to it and PotD being some special mode I probably wouldn't care about.