Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Torment: Tides of Numenera

[l3loodAngel]

Ouch.
As Fargo would say, the Codex does indeed make RPG developers shiver...

You either go (to codex) before the changes are irreversible or you go after for an enema therapy.

 

[Lurker King]

It was why Brian Fargo was exiled from polite gaming society to make cell phone shovelware and was a toxic name to people who aren't stupid. You guys saw this Brian Fargo and said to yourselves "this Brian Fargo will do good things with our money" just because while Brian Fargo was busy driving Brian Fargo's company into the ground smart people were able to make good games for Brian Fargo. They must have been like software ninjas, sneaking in at night when Brian Fargo was asleep to make good games before Brian Fargo could realize what was happening and fuck them up like Brian Fargo fucked everything else up.

 

[Roguey]

It may be hard to find much agreement even here, but surely we can all agree that it's pretty hard to find any computer game with better combat than ToEE.

ToEE was a lousy module when it came to enemy composition.

 

[Lurker King]

But seriously, have any of this would have made the game better at this state? At this point the orchestra would have played same boring Morgan tracks, the Toy would have complained about lack of diversity or something equally irrelevant.

I never understood this obsession with live orchestra. Can't you make an artificial orchestra with just a music keyboard?

 

[Ismaul]

Can't you make an artificial orchestra with just a music keyboard?

It doesn't sound the same. At all. Pretty much only good as background support.

The best "artifical" orchestras are actually made from banks of samples of recorded live instruments. They're costly, limited by the amount of samples, and hard to work with afaik. And you still don't capture the musicians' interpretation. It's pretty much like txt to speech vs an actual talented voice actor reading.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Well, at least the Codex has realized how much Obsidian has delivered with PoE.

cheapshot ;__

 

[Lurker King]

It doesn't sound the same. At all. Pretty much only good as background support.

But still sounds like a ridiculously megalomaniac and expensive thing to do. FO, PS:T and AoD had no live orchestras and still sound more immersive than Banner Saga.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Zero interest in this game after W2, but all the random chimpouts and drama make me really happy that so many codexers aren't what you could call "learning animals".

Thanks for the review!

 

[jewboy]

It may be hard to find much agreement even here, but surely we can all agree that it's pretty hard to find any computer game with better combat than ToEE.

ToEE was a lousy module when it came to enemy composition.

I was referring to the Troika game not the D&D module itself (I preferred Tomb of Horrors IIRC) If there is a cRPG with better combat I want to play it. Micromanaging the fights in Troika's ToEE computer game was for me at least pure bliss. But maybe I'm the only Codexian who feels that way. It's possible I guess. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but if that formula is improved Sawyer won't be the one to do it. IWD2 seems to have been his high point. He made a pretty good BIS forum community manager though. He should probably still be doing that sort of thing.

 

[Roguey]

I was referring to the Troika game not the D&D module itself (I preferred Tomb of Horrors IIRC) If there is a cRPG with better combat I want to play it. Micromanaging the fights in Troika's ToEE computer game was for me at least pure bliss. But maybe I'm the only Codexian who feels that way. It's possible I guess. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but if that formula is improved Sawyer won't be the one to do it. IWD2 seems to have been his high point. He made a pretty good BIS forum community manager though. He should probably still be doing that sort of thing.

The crpg was a nigh-perfect adaptation of the module. Quoting self

In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely.

I would also add Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity to that list. Knights of the Chalice too of course.

 

[Lord Azlan]

I was playing PST for the first time when I heard about Tides and purposely avoided all spoilers about the new game so I could bathe in pure RPG beams of enlightenment when it came out. I added it onto my BT4 rewards when I saw the opportunity.

After playing Tides over the last few weeks and on completion, I have come to the sad realisation that there is no genius. Unless you are Alec Ferguson or Bill Belichick. Who would be the equivalent in gaming terms? Twenty years of solid RPG goodness?

Playing PST gave me a huge appetite for information about the Planescape Universe and I gluttonised on all the information. Reading about the development of that great game, perusing the original PST marketing document and other information such as the manual of the planes, I suspected PST was not genius. There is no genius. There is only luck.

In PST, somehow the story, the characters, the music, the design all came together to create something extraordinary that would never be repeated in my life. Unless you were Sir Alec or Sir Bill. PST came together in the same way life on this planet came to being, a one in a hundred billion trillion zillion to the power of infinity sparked something called life. Or even a genius God creating it all from nothing.

So the gaming gods came together to create PST version 2 and the biggest most saddest disappointment is how damn crap it is. This half-game, complete Judas, self- righteous, fail of biblical proportions. It would never reach a PST, as the greatest RPG story ever told could only be told once. The bare fact of truth is that it is worse than PoE, WL2 and D:OS. It's not worthy of cleaning their shoes.

The base fact is that if you took out the name this lame shadow would be guffawed as an April's fool joke.

There is nothing in the new game even matching the Mortuary.
Where do people live?
Combat is bugged to hell. More than that, where the heck is the combat? Under Sigil anyone?
Many of the stories and characters you encounter in PST somehow contribute to the overall arch. A crazed old woman going on about portals. A planes adventurer that gives you a black token that becomes useful at the end. The bronze sphere.

Tides is a game for under 5s who have completed their Masters in English Literature. A Masters in complete gobbledegook.

Some positives right? We do have a glimmer of what the Planescape Universe could look like and a rather nice collection of useless spells ala PST. Tides excels in all the wrong areas. It answers the age old question - is there genius or is it just plain luck?

 

[Lurker King]

Playing PST gave me a huge appetite for information about the Planescape Universe and I gluttonised on all the information. Reading about the development of that great game, perusing the original PST marketing document and other information such as the manual of the planes, I suspected PST was not genius. There is no genius. There is only luck.

In PST, somehow the story, the characters, the music, the design all came together to create something extraordinary that would never be repeated in my life. Unless you were Sir Alec or Sir Bill. PST came together in the same way life on this planet came to being, a one in a hundred billion trillion zillion to the power of infinity sparked something called life. Or even a genius God creating it all from nothing.

On the contrary. There is no luck. There is only talent, hard work and good team effort. You just need to compare the differences between the development practices of the two projects, and the human material involved, to realize why this game sucks and the other shines. Watch Guido Henkel interview at Matt Chat, and think about the differences between the two design approachs to understand the differences.

 

[jewboy]

In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely. I would also add Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity to that list. Knights of the Chalice too of course.

What difference does it make how perfect an adaptation it is? Comparing PnP to a computer game is always going to be apples and oranges. Are you a huge fan of Dragon Age infinite-wave trash mob clone filler combat or do you just hate ToEE combat that much? If you really are a Dragon Age fan then it makes me wonder if all PoE lovers are. Maybe that's the difference. I can imagine the ad copy, "If you liked Dragon Age then you'll love Pillars" etc. Maybe Pillars was the Baldurs Gate for Dragon Age fans. I think a lot of the reasons I hated PoE combat were similar to the reasons I hated Dragon Age combat so there might be something to that. Or maybe Pillars would have been pitched to publishers as Dragon Age for WoW players.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Wouldn't it be nice if an rpg site had people on staff that actually liked rpgs? It seems like the function of this site is to be edgy and full of drama instead of being an rpg site.

Didn't you say you were leaving?

Went for the drama, ended up downloading music

 

[l3loodAngel]

In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins trounce it pretty fiercely. I would also add Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity to that list. Knights of the Chalice too of course.

What difference does it make how perfect an adaptation it is? Comparing PnP to a computer game is always going to be apples and oranges. Are you a huge fan of Dragon Age infinite-wave trash mob clone filler combat or do you just hate ToEE combat that much? If you really are a Dragon Age fan then it makes me wonder if all PoE lovers are. Maybe that's the difference. I can imagine the ad copy, "If you liked Dragon Age then you'll love Pillars" etc. Maybe Pillars was the Baldurs Gate for Dragon Age fans. I think a lot of the reasons I hated PoE combat were similar to the reasons I hated Dragon Age combat so there might be something to that. Or maybe Pillars would have been pitched to publishers as Dragon Age for WoW players.

No, she's just in love with JS so now she brings all the shit up just to mask how bad POE combat is. Comparing DAO to IE combat system? One is a MMO and the other is a DnD based system...
I would say that this is the new low, but she has sank just a little deeper while I was writting this sentence.

 

[Chunkyman]

Well it's become clear that Larian Studios is the only company that I'm going to be giving my money to for the foreseeable future. How all of these Kickstarter RPGs managed to be hot dogshit is amazing.

 

[you know what time it is]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

time to reinstall

 

[Lord Azlan]

Playing PST gave me a huge appetite for information about the Planescape Universe and I gluttonised on all the information. Reading about the development of that great game, perusing the original PST marketing document and other information such as the manual of the planes, I suspected PST was not genius. There is no genius. There is only luck.

In PST, somehow the story, the characters, the music, the design all came together to create something extraordinary that would never be repeated in my life. Unless you were Sir Alec or Sir Bill. PST came together in the same way life on this planet came to being, a one in a hundred billion trillion zillion to the power of infinity sparked something called life. Or even a genius God creating it all from nothing.

On the contrary. There is no luck. There is only talent, hard work and good team effort. You just need to compare the differences between the development practices of the two projects, and the human material involved, to realize why this game sucks and the other shines. Watch Guido Henkel interview at Matt Chat, and think about the differences between the two design approachs to understand the differences.

I watched that video a while back - I found no mysterious "truth" there. All I can imagine is that young people in their prime might take risks and chances that their older selves would not.

I played a game of chess once against a very good player that would probably batter me. Somehow I felt liberated and moved the pieces around thinking those new positions would be a good strategy and only towards the end did I find those pieces were exactly where they needed to be. The guy tried in vain to counter my plans and escape certain death but found everywhere he looked I had places pieces in position X moves ago that prevented him.

Sometimes you can just luck out and create stuff out of the ordinary or they were just ready to be unveiled. A lot of PST is not very good - I could make a whole list but somehow it becomes greater than a sum of its parts. Somehow all the random bits fall into and contribute to the whole. My ending led to some transcendental journey and I came through sort of cleansed. It was like a religious experience. I gave birth or someone gave birth to me.

Did the PST developers envision that?

 

[Ismaul]

But still sounds like a ridiculously megalomaniac and expensive thing to do. FO, PS:T and AoD had no live orchestras and still sound more immersive than Banner Saga.

I agree. The problem with fake orchestras is that they try to recreate instruments with known sonorities, textures and ways to play that have an impact on how they sound. The recreation of something like that will never come close to the real thing.

The games you quote have the advantage iirc of using main virtual instruments that don't necessarily try to recreate an instrument in all its specificity. They don't try to sound exactly like something real, so they don't sound off. A bit like stylized graphics vs realistic graphics. Or you've got a talented composer/mixer that knows the limits of his virtual instruments/samples and uses them only within those limits, as support, and/or using mixing techniques to cover their flaws.

 

[Lurker King]

I watched that video a while back - I found no mysterious "truth" there. All I can imagine is that young people in their prime might take risks and chances that their older selves would not.

That's an understatement. Let's make an inventory:

(1) PS:T had a brilliant narrative premise that hooks the player immediately. T:ToN has a shitty premise that tries to imitate the original one.

(2) The narrative premise in PS:T was tied to every single element of the game, from the art, and the itemization, to the NPCs and the exploration of the game world, which is a journey of self-discovery. The narrative premise of T:ToN is dissociated from the art, the itemization, the NPCs, and the exploration of the game world, which feels like a weird theme park with nothing interesting to do.

(3) PS:T’s premise works because it makes the player suspicious of the game world and uncertain about himself. It’s based on a sense of self-doubt and mystery. T:ToN’s premise is handed on a platter from day one, and promoted like a hot dog in terrible kickstarter trailers. The premise is ham-fisted from the beginning, because the developers were afraid that the console audience wouldn’t understand the narrative.

(4) In PS:T, the catchphrase “What can change the nature of a man?” has its significance evidenced in your inevitable journey of self-discovery. In T:ToN, the catchphrase “What does one life matter?” is dissociated from your main character [this criticism was suggested by vivec].

(5) The main character in PS:T has a clear motivation that is tied to the whole game, including NPCs motivations. In T:ToN, both the protagonists and companions have shallow motivations. Despite what the intro want us to believe, you are not actually running from the sorrow, and this motivation theme is not tied to the game world, or the companions for the most part [this criticism was suggested by vivec].

(6) PS:T feels so well defined because it was written by one talented individual, which also happens to had one year to write all the content. He also provided an ultra-detailed visual document of the game before development. The PnP and the setting chosen were solid. T:ToN concept was made in a hurry to cash in on the kickstarter fad. They choose a shallow PnP system with an awful setting without knowing in what they were getting into. Key feautures of the game were thrown around on kickstarter to increase the pledges. A bunch of writers of dubious quality wanted to implement their visions, etc.

(7) PS:T was developed by a team of passionate gamers working together. T:ToN was developed by a team of veterans of the industry meeting on skype, who also happens to have other priorities in their lives, and a bunch of pretentious writers that know nothing about game design, writing or PS:T.

(8) The setting, the NPCs, the quests, the art and even the soundtrack of PS:T are memorable and lively. The setting, the NPCs, the quests, the art and the soundtrack of T:ToN are either bland, or annoying. In T:ToN, the background lore is more interesting than the actual quests, and the NPCs are more interesting than your companions. [this criticism was suggested by DeepOcean].

(9) PS:T gives you freedom to role-play. T:ToN arbitrarily restricts your choices due to political correctness.

(10) PS:T is a strong game with strong themes. T:ToN is a mediocre game that treats strong themes in a mediocre manner [this criticism was suggested by Lacrymas].

(11) PS:T is consistent. T:ToN has inconsistent themes. e.g. slavery in a city ruled by the people who rebelled against it [This criticism was suggested by vivec].

(12) PS:T had bad combat that ends fast. T:ToN has even worse combat that takes forever.

(13) PS:T's writing is long-winded, but coesive and suggestive. T:ToN's writing is uneven, over-descriptive and patronising.

I could increase this list all day long. If you look at these differences impartially, there is nothing surprising about the difference in quality between the two games.

 

[undecaf]

Ok, yeah. This wasn't a very good "review" - regardless of whether or not I agree with what was said in it. Not quite simple "Lol shit sucks", but... meh, what ever, not very far from that either. I got more informed about reviewers attitude (which I already knew) towards it than the game itself and the whole text felt like the writer was constantly scratching his asshole and sniffing the finger to get to a right set of mood and holding onto it.

I don't particularly disagree with the criticism there, the game is underwhelming and troubled as fuck (though not really as much as is led to believe, even a dummy can tell there's a load bias coming from unmet expectations). This "review", though, is laced with tired effort at trying to sound edgy and 'dexian "I hate it more than you, you motherfucker!" with the overblown criticism and not really succeeding at anything else than sounding tired... "Ma', ah dun like this game." There's very little objectivity and thus it's not really much more than a glorified forum post.

Anyway, I had fun reading it so good job. Here's a fist:

 

[Lord Andre]

jewboy Boy, you are dumber than a second coat of paint.

Follow the quest compass:

1. ToEE had a very very tight implementation of 3.5. Good.

2. The encounter design was shit. e.g. diversity of enemies was shit. Bad.

3. AI was shit. Bad.

4. Number 2 and 3 negate the advantages of 1.

New quest:

1. I specifically mentioned the "bugbear conga line", which unless you are really bad at english, you would understand that it references an encounter with a shit-ton of bugbears that takes forever to finish in TB because you have to wait for each one to move. It takes forever and it would even cause the game performance to drop on the machines of the time. Just look at the picture in the spoiler

Spoiler

Sidequest:

1. Knights of the Chalice despite having very low production values, also uses 3.5 and manages to create awesome encounters by drawing on the full monster manual and doing interesting combinations with them. So even though it only has 3 of the core classes, it's encounter design elevates its combat experience well over TOEE which despite having an excellent engine it sucks balls since said engine is never really used to even 10% of its potential.

3.5 is D&D 3.5 btw. Open license in case of KotC.

Get it now, dimwit ?

 

[Valky]

ToEE had plenty of diversity. There were earth temple bugbears, water temple bugbears, fire temple bugbears, air temple bugbears, greater temple bugbears, and neutral bugbears.

 

[ArchAngel]

ToEE had plenty of diversity. There were earth temple bugbears, water temple bugbears, fire temple bugbears, air temple bugbears, greater temple bugbears, and neutral bugbears.

Almost as much diversity as DAO .

 

[cruelio]

jewboy
1. Knights of the Chalice despite having very low production values, also uses 3.5 and manages to create awesome encounters by drawing on the full monster manual and doing interesting combinations with them. So even though it only has 3 of the core classes, it's encounter design elevates its combat experience well over TOEE which despite having an excellent engine it sucks balls since said engine is never really used to even 10% of its potential.

I ended up preferring TOEE to KOTC because TOEE ends before 3.5 dnd caster supremacy starts to get really bad while the best KOTC party is simply some combination of clerics and mages, no fighters. KOTC absolutely has encounter issues though, specifically the interminable part of the game where you have to go to the regular giant area to fight the regular giants, the ice giant area to fight the ice giants, and the fire giant areas to fight the fire giants, where almost every enemy is just some flavor of giant who aren't even configured in any interesting ways. I found that part of the game more excruciating than anything in TOEE.