Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Torment: Tides of Numenera

[Junmarko]

BTW, does anyone know where YES! got the idea that we all hated RPGs? Fargo showering him in cash?

Yeah, his outrage at the Codex and more specifically Codex "staff" is fucking bizarre. It's borderline personal, like he worked on the game or something.

Wouldn't it be nice if an rpg site had people on staff that actually liked rpgs?

Cause you know, the Top 70 RPG list doesn't mean shit if T:ToN isn't on there. Nor are we allowed to measure it against it's spiritual predecessor, which is #1 on that list.

Sure thing, buddy. I have some good news for you - OH MY GOD A NEW ZELDA IS OUT!!!!!

Indeed. Now it's automatically immune from criticism, because Nintendo and Friends™ exist.

 

[cruelio]

Hi guys. I have a really good explanation for how this game cost over five million real life moneys with no divinable explanation on how those moneys were spent. It's because the moneys were given to Brian Fargo. Brian Fargo, who is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, failures in gaming's relatively short history. Brian Fargo, who took a successful company called Interplay and drove it into the ground by making spectacularly bad decisions with money. This was a known fact about Brian Fargo. It was why Brian Fargo was exiled from polite gaming society to make cell phone shovelware and was a toxic name to people who aren't stupid. You guys saw this Brian Fargo and said to yourselves "this Brian Fargo will do good things with our money" just because while Brian Fargo was busy driving Brian Fargo's company into the ground smart people were able to make good games for Brian Fargo. They must have been like software ninjas, sneaking in at night when Brian Fargo was asleep to make good games before Brian Fargo could realize what was happening and fuck them up like Brian Fargo fucked everything else up. And even these insane software ninjas could not stop Brian Fargo from destroying Interplay. So really in the end it isn't Brain Fargo's fault. Failure is caked deep into Brian Fargo's essence. It's your fault for giving Brian Fargo your money, so Brian Fargo could expose himself as a fraud and a moron all over again for a new generation.

 

[Elwro]

Thanks, Prime Junta , for reminding people about the characters from PS:T which show what good game design, having an interesting idea and consistently following it, can result in.

 

[Luckmann]

PST combat issue is that their idea of encounter design was just spawning clusters of same enemies

I keep saying it - PS:T still had a fundamentally good combat system that simply worked. Tides of Nu-men-era doesn't. The encounters in PS:T weren't exactly stellar, but there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the combat system or the combat pacing either. It wasn't a lesson in frustration, and nothing was fundamentally broken. It worked perfectly for what it was trying to do - break up the occasional monotony of the game, rinse the palate, and serve as an option for violent resolution of content.

That's it, and it did it extremely well, likely because it was based on the IE system. Had they had to design a system from the bottom up for the purpose of the game itself, I don't think it would've been as good, since combat was fundamentally not the point of the game, but it was still there, and thanks to it being based on the IE system, it was simply.. solid.

 

[ArchAngel]

Serious question, are you larping as schizoid Castoffs?

BTW, does anyone know where YES! got the idea that we all hated RPGs? Fargo showering him in cash?

He has been repeating that line from almost the start. He is just someone's alt trolling the 'Dex. People should just ignore him.

 

[l3loodAngel]

PST combat issue is that their idea of encounter design was just spawning clusters of same enemies

I keep saying it - PS:T still had a fundamentally good combat system that simply worked. Tides of Nu-men-era doesn't. The encounters in PS:T weren't exactly stellar, but there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the combat system or the combat pacing either. It wasn't a lesson in frustration, and nothing was fundamentally broken. It worked perfectly for what it was trying to do - break up the occasional monotony of the game, rinse the palate, and serve as an option for violent resolution of content.

That's it, and it did it extremely well, likely because it was based on the IE system. Had they had to design a system from the bottom up for the purpose of the game itself, I don't think it would've been as good, since combat was fundamentally not the point of the game, but it was still there, and thanks to it being based on the IE system, it was simply.. solid.

Got to Luv those those PST system fans who come out of the woodwork after I colelcted +500 retarded/shit and other nice tags. FU.

 

[Luckmann]

Got to Luv those those PST system fans who come out of the woodwork after I colelcted +500 retarded/shit and other nice tags. FU.

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I tagged your post with shit just to be sure.

 

[Elwro]

Me too. Consistency is key to consistency

 

[cruelio]

I don't know what spells are in Planescape Torment because my PC mage spent the whole time auto attacking in real time with a dagger. I'm looking through the list in the wiki and thinking "holy shit I did not know any of these things were in that game." It's only in the fever swamps of this place that I have seen anyone defend the combat of Planescape Torment.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Got to Luv those those PST system fans who come out of the woodwork after I colelcted +500 retarded/shit and other nice tags. FU.

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I tagged your post with shit just to be sure.

You know if we ever meet in real life I will crush your skull slowly with my leg, while you squeal like a pig. Have fun retard. Just saying. Ignore.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Has there been talk suggesting that there's going to be substantial alterations such that I should wait 6 months before going further with this playthrough? I've still got my White March playthrough to finish, which I'm really enjoying (about half-way through the game), and the improvements since launch have been so massive that the original game feels barely comparable - entire different combat mechanics, fundamental alterations like it's different game altogether. I've also got the last 1/3 of Deus ExD to finish off. Factoring in work and kids, I could easily make those + Undertale + a 2nd Shadowrun: Dragonfall playthrough last me for 18 months, i.e. easily long enough for a PoE 3.0 style revamp.

With PoE the improvement was so great that it really wasn't a case of 'play version 1, then come back and replay 3.0/3.2', it was more a case of 'wait for them to retool this game that is very much in early beta, and then come back when they've got the finished product', or 'subtract 2 from the game's version number and you've got the right indicator'.

Any signs that something as massive as the PoE revamp will happen? Or worth playing through now and then replaying with later alterations?

Wait...what? I hated PoE combat at release. Are you saying it has changed so much that someone who initially hated it might like it now? They made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics post-release?

In honesty...yes. I can't promise that it's gone from shit to gold - you could very well end up hating the game all over again. But it's a massively different game now, to the extent that prior knowledge of the 1.0 combat mechanics can directly fuck you up due to attributes affecting different stats altogether, the class-attribute relationships being different...it's still the same bones, but the rules are very different.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Has there been talk suggesting that there's going to be substantial alterations such that I should wait 6 months before going further with this playthrough? I've still got my White March playthrough to finish, which I'm really enjoying (about half-way through the game), and the improvements since launch have been so massive that the original game feels barely comparable - entire different combat mechanics, fundamental alterations like it's different game altogether. I've also got the last 1/3 of Deus ExD to finish off. Factoring in work and kids, I could easily make those + Undertale + a 2nd Shadowrun: Dragonfall playthrough last me for 18 months, i.e. easily long enough for a PoE 3.0 style revamp.

With PoE the improvement was so great that it really wasn't a case of 'play version 1, then come back and replay 3.0/3.2', it was more a case of 'wait for them to retool this game that is very much in early beta, and then come back when they've got the finished product', or 'subtract 2 from the game's version number and you've got the right indicator'.

Any signs that something as massive as the PoE revamp will happen? Or worth playing through now and then replaying with later alterations?

Wait...what? I hated PoE combat at release. Are you saying it has changed so much that someone who initially hated it might like it now? They made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics post-release?

In honesty...yes. I can't promise that it's gone from shit to gold - you could very well end up hating the game all over again. But it's a massively different game now, to the extent that prior knowledge of the 1.0 combat mechanics can directly fuck you up due to attributes affecting different stats altogether, the class-attribute relationships being different...it's still the same bones, but the rules are very different.

No it did not change fundamentals just the cosmetics. You should try it in case you will like it, but I found the shit being the same. I dont see the difference other people see, it's the same shit: useless atributes, all builds are the same, no impactful skills, everything is boring as fuck and other stuff that's makes me cry each time I remember BG2 (which was not that great).

Not to mention the combat design makes stuff competely not fun. Hordes of mindless enemies. Have you heard of Xaurips, son? Did they change that, cause last time I checked they didn't.

The people who preach about the great changes that happened during the development are usually those that liked the game in the first place as the core issues remain the same.

 

[Valky]

Got to Luv those those PST system fans who come out of the woodwork after I colelcted +500 retarded/shit and other nice tags. FU.

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I tagged your post with shit just to be sure.

You know if we ever meet in real life I will crush your skull slowly with my leg, while you squeal like a pig. Have fun retard. Just saying.

So you're into the kinky stuff.

 

[ArchAngel]

Has there been talk suggesting that there's going to be substantial alterations such that I should wait 6 months before going further with this playthrough? I've still got my White March playthrough to finish, which I'm really enjoying (about half-way through the game), and the improvements since launch have been so massive that the original game feels barely comparable - entire different combat mechanics, fundamental alterations like it's different game altogether. I've also got the last 1/3 of Deus ExD to finish off. Factoring in work and kids, I could easily make those + Undertale + a 2nd Shadowrun: Dragonfall playthrough last me for 18 months, i.e. easily long enough for a PoE 3.0 style revamp.

With PoE the improvement was so great that it really wasn't a case of 'play version 1, then come back and replay 3.0/3.2', it was more a case of 'wait for them to retool this game that is very much in early beta, and then come back when they've got the finished product', or 'subtract 2 from the game's version number and you've got the right indicator'.

Any signs that something as massive as the PoE revamp will happen? Or worth playing through now and then replaying with later alterations?

Wait...what? I hated PoE combat at release. Are you saying it has changed so much that someone who initially hated it might like it now? They made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics post-release?

In honesty...yes. I can't promise that it's gone from shit to gold - you could very well end up hating the game all over again. But it's a massively different game now, to the extent that prior knowledge of the 1.0 combat mechanics can directly fuck you up due to attributes affecting different stats altogether, the class-attribute relationships being different...it's still the same bones, but the rules are very different.

It has not gone from shit to gold, they just put some golden paint on the shit and called it a day.

 

[RationalLunatic]

Thanks for the review, Prime Junta! I really appreciate you've kept it short, as this game is material for numerous essays on 'what went wrong'.
It's a shame Tworment is so bland. It isn't the setting only - story, characters, music, sound effects, quests, combat all of it is just boring and uninspired. It's very modern and for that reason it can't be allowed to be risky or weird.
But honestly, I can't be angry with this game, even with all my hype and hope. I don't care for it. And hey, I still have PST whenever I want my imagination to be stimulated!

 

[Iznaliu]

It has not gone from shit to gold, they just put some golden paint on the shit and called it a day.

Quoting from personal experience on having gold paint put upon you? How did it feel?

 

[jewboy]

Hmm. Well it sounds like most of the horrible annoying retarded shit is still there, but I'll give it another whirl just so I can argue coherently in threads like this. Still, fuck you Josh Sawyer (sorry Roguey). I hate you. How did you ever get promoted from managing the BIS forums to anything else? Pillars lovers may not be as bad as Dragon Age lovers, but I can't help but wonder if the people who like Pillars combat have also played through Dragon Age at least once and were not traumatized by the experience. To me PoE seemed like a thoroughly modern cRPG in almost all respects and was a massive massive fuck you to anyone who really did love the original IE games and didn't just hear about them from their great grandparents' nostalgic stories.

For those who have forgotten here's the original codex Pillars review.

 

[ArchAngel]

It has not gone from shit to gold, they just put some golden paint on the shit and called it a day.

Quoting from personal experience on having gold paint put upon you? How did it feel?

Ask your mother how it felt.

 

[l3loodAngel]

In honesty...yes. I can't promise that it's gone from shit to gold - you could very well end up hating the game all over again. But it's a massively different game now, to the extent that prior knowledge of the 1.0 combat mechanics can directly fuck you up due to attributes affecting different stats altogether, the class-attribute relationships being different...it's still the same bones, but the rules are very different.

It has not gone from shit to gold, they just put some golden paint on the shit and called it a day.

I can only use FO vs WL 2 example. After you set up the systems there is just so much you can do. They tried to improve shit in WL2, but that didin't change much, while in FO/FO2 even rat battles were decent due to systems and progression, while WL2 even large battles were uninteresting.

The main reason is that once you have a system, the devs make a number of decisions based on that system like: the number of enemies/decide their weapons, stats, position/ make decisions on the map,area size and obejects within the area (not to mention changes required for PC/NPC equipment and that means changing drops and quest rewards, or even item abilities). It can be analytically seen that changing systems after the release is a nightmare. In reality that means that the game is stuck with the system/systems it was built upon. However, this might not be the case with Numenera as there are too few battles, but most games with a shitty system/systems are dead on arrival.
Now if you want to change you have to at least revise everything, so it becomes either impossible or not viable financially if the changes are meaningful. If for example devs change one variable like "reduce unarmed attack damage" an unarmed boss may become a non-factor. If during the combat system revision the designers increase the power of unarmed attacks/walking distance the boss fight might become unwinnable. So devs have to go through every encounter after serious changes.

Only then the game difficulty will be just right. If its too easy/hard few people will enjoy it.

 

[cvv]

Heh, first time I hear someone say "As soon as I heard the setting is the Numenera my expectations dropped." Spot on Ludo Lense. I felt exactly the same. I hadn't known Numenera when inXile came up with the game but after 30 seconds of reading up on it I thought it's as if a not very bright 14 year old read Dan Simmon's Hyperion, got all excited and decided he'd create his own awesum universe full of incomprehensible aliens, distant futures and grand weirdness.

Immediatelly it was clear to me that whoever made that decision doesn't possess the ability to tell talent from humdrum which was a bad omen for the game.

Anyway, in the balance of things my feelings about the game are slightly positive so Junta's review is too brutal for me. Yes visuals and sounds are worse than PoE and I don't give a damn. The combat IS sluggish but a simple speed slider would dispell most problems I have with the combat. The skill checks is not a brilliant system because it encourages savescumming but that's inXile for you. It was the same in W2 and I loved the game (director's cut that is).

But the part regarding writing is unfortunately spot on. Good job on that one Prime Junta.

"If Planescape: Torment is a monk struggling with a kôan, "What can change the nature of a man?" a red-hot iron ball in his throat which he can neither swallow nor spit out, Tides is a philosophy freshman crying into his red wine, in love with the profundity of his navel."

That's the majority of the writing being nailed hard. There's no way around it, the core writing team is a bunch of talentless hacks and I'm saying it with in my voice because there are spots of genuine brilliance and you can only dream about what this game could've been if it was written entirly by whoever was responsible for them (Avellone and Rothfuss is my guess, maybe a few others).

 

[Diggfinger]

Ouch.
As Fargo would say, the Codex does indeed make RPG developers shiver...

 

[Iznaliu]

Ask your mother how it felt.

Don't be silly ArchAngel! Stop eating the gold paint!

 

[Ruzen]

I think It's too dramatic to say, the failure of the game was the setting. Numenera is a good setting which can produce interesting fiction. I understand that It's an opinion to like a setting or not, but to go after It and point the finger about stories are dull, because of the setting is just too far fetched. That's why I listen to Focal Point, just as I read or listen to others too but he usually creates his version of the absolute truth and interprets everything around that.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ask your mother how it felt.

Don't be silly ArchAngel! Stop eating the gold paint!

Is this the best PoEtards have to offer? Is this all? Give me some real challenge.

 

[Ismaul]

I have no idea what you're talking about, so I tagged your post with shit just to be sure.

You know if we ever meet in real life I will crush your skull slowly with my leg, while you squeal like a pig. Have fun retard. Just saying. Ignore.

You didn't ignore him though. Why do you lie?