RPG Codex Top 50 cRPGs - Retards who cannot read and Discussion thread

[evdk]

And then KOTOR 2 did the same, but with actually meaningful characters and better cinematography and a story that mattered.

Weeeeell... I did vote for K2, but DaveO has a point in story-execution. K2 certainly had a more interesting and original plot, better characters and overall better atmosphere, but when it comes to actually executing the story in a meaningful way and making sense of itself, KotOR was pretty much a text-book example of effective writing. It followed a narrative path in a pretty structured manner (in contrast to K2 which just threw all these awesome ideas together and became kind of a mess because of it) and it had a nice curve of excitement.

Plus, you can say a lot to the credit of K2, but KotOR did feel more like Star Wars.

I like both games, and I must admit I don't find much reason to put the original on the list, but it did tell its story way better than K2 did, even if the story itself was more banal.

I'll take interesting chaos over competent boredom any day of the week.

 

[Jasede]

it did tell its story way better than K2 did

Dunno lol maybe cuz it was a finished product

K2 stands tall even as it is; it does expect more from you than just spoon-feeding all the connections to the player though.

 

[Captain Shrek]

^ Actually No.

KOTOR has much better production value than the sequel. Although the reason could be publisher meddling. Someone more informed may let us know.

 

[Jasede]

I wasn't talking about production values; everything Grunker said is arguably true depending on your perspective. There's definitely a lot of things cut from KOTOR 2 and there's the fair share of empty, boring cut & paste design when it comes to making a dungeon that the first game avoids (mostly).

Edit: But if KOTOR 2 was nothing but some MCA pages written on a typewriter with skillchecks and a system to create a character it'd still be head and shoulders about most other things written in video game format, along with a couple more of the rare, well-written video games which come out all too rarely. PS:T, Nier, Deadly Premonition, Mask of the Betrayer, Dark Souls all fall under this category. It's more than unfortunate that, other than the strength of its writing and characters, it's a pretty bad game.

 

[Captain Shrek]

I wasn't talking about production values; everything Grunker said is arguably true depending on your perspective. There's definitely a lot of things cut from KOTOR 2 and there's the fair share of empty, boring cut & paste design when it comes to making a dungeon that the first game avoids (mostly).

If it is not about the production value then what Grunker said needs a lot of explanation. KOTOR has a lot of pointless and sometimes completely inexplicable plot. It fails to explain motives of Raven and the plot-twist seems so pushed that only because of it being a computer game it allows suspension of disbelief.

The entire SIth vs Jedi / republic vs whoever also is very badly executed. The sith philosophy does not make sense although that can be an EU retardation effect. The discovery of the machine that makes the fleet is the only part that was sensibly explaining why a splinter faction became so powerful. But it feeding on the Dark side is kinda shaky to say the least.

I really do not know what people see in that story.

 

[Jasede]

I don't see anything in it but I can definitely see the "It's a better Star Wars story" point. It obviously is. Star Wars is flat and simple - so is KOTOR. Everything in it feels Star Wars. The mood, the music, even the way the credits roll and the end of the game with a celebration. It's a Star Wars movie in video game form - with all the flaws that entails.

A story doesn't have to be complicated to be great - to the contrary!

...but I still don't like the story in KOTOR, and it's NOT because it's simple.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Congratulations, you managed to miss the two best DM clones (except maybe Grimrock, which I haven't played). But probable just as well, since all later DM clones are an anti-climax after the sublime experience that is CSB.
You really should try it if you like DM clones. But play Black Crypt first.

I've tried to play Black Crypt, but the controls are a major turnoff for me, for some reason.

I've skipped on CSB because I wanted to go at it after a fresh playthrough of DM, and it's high time I did so. So congratulations in return, you made me go play them.

 

[evdk]

I've tried to play Black Crypt, but the controls are a major turnoff for me, for some reason.

I've skipped on CSB because I wanted to go at it after a fresh playthrough of DM, and it's high time I did so. So congratulations in return, you made me go play them.

CSB is one hell of a ride. Probably ending in a full speed collision with a wall.

 

[Jasede]

I remember booting up CSB and getting eaten by a monster in total darkness.
1 second after starting the game.

nope.jpg

 

[evdk]

Hell yeah. It takes DM's final level's difficulty as a suggestion, then doubles it and and never slows down. Nice, orderly progression through the floors? That's for fags, son, have some pits and silent teleporters. And be prepared to eat your shoes, because there will be nothing else.

 

[Shadenuat]

About BG.
I probably would not put BG itself in "top of best RPGs evar", instead, I'd put there Infinity Games as a whole. For me, value of BG for RPGs is undeniable - not only is it a pretty good combat experience, but it also layed a road for other games in line, popularised pre-rendered isometric dungeon-crawl, AD&D, Forgotten Realms, and made RPGs reach a new height in storytelling (PST). In my opinion, Infinity Games deserve all right to be in the list. They really formed a generation of players and sprawled imitators, enriching the genre.

 

[Volourn]

"NWN: Shadows of Undrentide"

FAIL.

 

[Oesophagus]

About BG.
I probably would not put BG itself in "top of best RPGs evar", instead, I'd put there Infinity Games as a whole. For me, value of BG for RPGs is undeniable - not only is it a pretty good combat experience, but it also layed a road for other games in line, popularised pre-rendered isometric dungeon-crawl, AD&D, Forgotten Realms, and made RPGs reach a new height in storytelling (PST). In my opinion, Infinity Games deserve all right to be in the list. They really formed a generation of players and sprawled imitators, enriching the genre.

Which is why so many have put all or most of them on the list.

Yeah, I like IWD a lot more than BG, and "Infinity Engine games" is just too generic. Might as well put "Black Isle games"

 

[suejak]

HGAHAHAHA, chalk up one vote for AoD in the ranking

 

[LeStryfe79]

BG is on my list mostly for creating the Infinity Engine. It also really got the D&D "vibe", and has a fair bit of non-linearity. BG2, on the other hand gave us David Gaider. It also created the traditional Bioware framework, and had truly fantastic popamole. It did not make my list.

 

[suejak]

Anyone who lists BG and not BG2 is a gigantic decline-promoting poser and probably smells like raw shrimp.

 

[Excidium]

It's the same shit.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I could see liking BG more than BG2 just for preferring low level AD&D and for the progression where you start out struggling and where getting gear like full plate or a sword +1 is an actual milestone instead of having bags of magic weapons and armour. It's certainly a playstyle that I find more appealing.

 

[suejak]

Well, you probably smell like raw shrimp, because BG 1 is exclusively random combat in a game with a bad combat system. Cool if you're a seafood lover, but girls don't like that kind of thing.

BG 2 is easily leagues better for what it is, including character depth, several significant choices, complex items, complex fights, and a story that's simply better.

I guess some people like low-level 2E D&D, but fuck, you're taking random one-shot deaths using boring gear (is a +1 sword ever exciting?) in an artificially real-time environment, mostly fighting oceans of even lower-level generic mobs like gnolls and orcs. Almost every fight for the first third of the game is decided by who managed to hit who first after a minute spent watching the characters stand in place and miss each other once a round. Not a playstyle I find appealing.

 

[wormix]

Disclaimer: May not be 100% accurate

Current top 20 tally

#01 - 131 - Fallout
#02 - 117 - Planescape: Torment
#03 - 104 - Fallout 2
#04 -  99 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
#05 -  99 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
#06 -  89 - Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
#07 -  68 - Baldur's Gate
#08 -  66 - Icewind Dale
#09 -  65 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
#10 -  63 - Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (Exp Only)
#11 -  62 - Fallout: New Vegas
#12 -  60 - Deus Ex
#13 -  59 - The Temple of Elemental Evil
#14 -  54 - Gothic II
#15 -  46 - Wizardry 8
#16 -  46 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
#17 -  46 - Betrayal at Krondor
#18 -  42 - Jagged Alliance 2
#19 -  39 - The Witcher
#20 -  38 - Icewind Dale II

Bonus rank
#23 - 34 - Knights of the Chalice

 

[felipepepe]

Those are the usual suspects, I'm actually more interested in the rest of the list...

 

[Gozma]

I thought I was seeing Darklands so much early in the thread it was gonna be like #10, I was like damn that game got fashionable but twas naught but confirmation bias

Weird to see stuff that I thought was really popular like Ultima 7 is a minority thing

 

[suejak]

The list turns to shit at about #6.

Icewind Dale 1? Seriously? What forum is this again? :kwanzania:

 

[felipepepe]

I don't get why Desu Ex is more popular than System Shock 2...

 

[wormix]

Those are the usual suspects, I'm actually more interested in the rest of the list...

I'm pretty surprised to see New Vegas so high. And yes the rest of the list is interesting...

The list turns to shit at about #6.

Icewind Dale 1? Seriously? What forum is this again? :kwanzania:

Well it hasn't gone through Jaesun's shitposter filter yet so it's still counting your vote.