RPG Codex Top 50 cRPGs - Retards who cannot read and Discussion thread

[suejak]

No offense, but who are you?

 

[tuluse]

I don't get why Desu Ex is more popular than System Shock 2...

I never made it very far into System Shock 2 as a kid, I was too scared

 

[wormix]

No offense, but who are you?

Someone who doesn't feel the need to prove how oldfag they are when they're called out for being a retarded newfag.

 

[suejak]

Hmmm, well, that's cute. Anyway, I predate your noobly 4chan terminology, and I assure you that my generation does not approve of 4chan either. So go pick your nose and level up or w/e and I'll see you again when your user id rings a bell.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Current top 20 tally

#01 - 131 - Fallout
#02 - 117 - Planescape: Torment
#03 - 104 - Fallout 2
#04 -  99 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
#05 -  99 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
#06 -  89 - Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
#07 -  68 - Baldur's Gate
#08 -  66 - Icewind Dale
#09 -  65 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
#10 -  63 - Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (Exp Only)
#11 -  62 - Fallout: New Vegas
#12 -  60 - Deus Ex
#13 -  59 - The Temple of Elemental Evil
#14 -  54 - Gothic II
#15 -  46 - Wizardry 8
#16 -  46 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
#17 -  46 - Betrayal at Krondor
#18 -  42 - Jagged Alliance 2
#19 -  39 - The Witcher
#20 -  38 - Icewind Dale II

Bonus rank
#23 - 34 - Knights of the Chalice

What a shitty top 20. Where's Darklands? Where's Realms of Arkania? Where's Ultima? Baldur's Gate, The Witcher and both Icewind Dales are better games, right? I'm very

 

[Wyrmlord]

I don't get why Desu Ex is more popular than System Shock 2...

Because people still discover new things for themselves in Deux Ex playing it again a decade later, I guess?

A guy could come out of the canals, meet a bartender, and get the question, "What were you doing in the canals?" and JC would say, "I was swimming". And then the player would think, "Wow, I totally missed this back in 2000." A small touch but keeps a game fresh.

I recently discovered an entire submerged and flooded lab below the Hong Kong canals in Deus Ex. A couple of MJ12 divers were there, looking for lost data to salvage, and they attacked me. Deeper inside, those dangerous mutant fishes too were there. Raiding the flooded lab, I found PDAs, ammunition, and other useful items. I just thought the Hong Kong canals were just canals, and I did not expect several hidden areas to be found there.

It may not make DX necessarily better than SS2, but it certainly helps that one game has hidden things still left to discover years later.

 

[wormix]

Those are the usual suspects, I'm actually more interested in the rest of the list...

I didn't post the entire list because of a silly reason that in retrospect is silly, so here's the current top 60 for the curious. Same disclaimer applies.

Spoiler

#01 - 131 - Fallout
#02 - 117 - Planescape: Torment
#03 - 104 - Fallout 2
#04 - 99 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
#04 - 99 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
#06 - 89 - Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
#07 - 68 - Baldur's Gate
#08 - 66 - Icewind Dale
#09 - 65 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
#10 - 63 - Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (Exp Only)
#11 - 62 - Fallout: New Vegas
#12 - 60 - Deus Ex
#13 - 59 - The Temple of Elemental Evil
#14 - 54 - Gothic II
#15 - 46 - Wizardry 8
#15 - 46 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
#15 - 46 - Betrayal at Krondor
#18 - 42 - Jagged Alliance 2
#19 - 39 - The Witcher
#20 - 38 - Icewind Dale II
#21 - 35 - System Shock 2
#22 - 34 - Darklands
#22 - 34 - Knights of the Chalice
#24 - 33 - Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
#25 - 32 - Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
#26 - 31 - Ultima VI: The False Prophet
#26 - 31 - Might and Magic: World of Xeen
#28 - 30 - The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
#28 - 30 - Gothic
#28 - 30 - Wasteland
#28 - 30 - Wizardry VII: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
#32 - 29 - Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
#33 - 27 - Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
#33 - 27 - Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos
#35 - 26 - Divine Divinity
#36 - 23 - Pool of Radiance
#37 - 22 - Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
#38 - 21 - Diablo
#39 - 20 - Arx Fatalis
#40 - 19 - Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
#40 - 19 - Diablo II
#42 - 18 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
#42 - 18 - Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny
#42 - 18 - Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
#42 - 18 - Ultima VII: The Black Gate
#46 - 17 - Ancient Domains of Mystery
#46 - 17 - Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
#48 - 16 - Risen
#48 - 16 - Dragon Age: Origins
#48 - 16 - Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra
#51 - 15 - Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark (Exp Only)
#52 - 14 - Dungeon Master
#52 - 14 - Anachronox
#54 - 13 - The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings
#55 - 12 - Neverwinter Nights
#55 - 12 - Mount & Blade: Warband
#57 - 11 - Divinity II
#57 - 11 - Neverwinter Nights 2
#57 - 11 - Curse of the Azure Bonds
#60 - 10 - Eye of the Beholder

 

[Haba]

How much of a retard do you have to be to actually even consider adding DesuX, SS2, JA2 or X-Com to a list of top RPGs?

This is some kind of a giant troll, right? Right?

 

[felipepepe]

I'm ok with that list. Shame that Warband didn't make the top 50, but the titles before it are good as well. And Witcher 2 is out.

And when this is out we should make a big newspost and message Larian Studios, the Knights of the Chalice guy and other bros that appear on the list, just to show them our appreciation for their work. Never again will a RPG developer cry no one cared about their great games & features! :we cared Tim Cain:

 

[codexian reject]

I don't get why Desu Ex is more popular than System Shock 2...

Everyone who liked SS2 is going to like Deus Ex as well, even if he thinks SS2 is a much better game. Not everyone who played DX played SS2 since it's older game.

This list should be weighted. Like, the first five titles get 5 points each, next five gets 4 points each, etc.
It would move a bit down the list tittles of “it's good because everything else is shit” and “it's good because I have not played all the classics yet” varieties.

Also, everything should be allowed, console and jap faggotry included. It would tell us a bit truth about the codex and I am curious which tittles would made it into top25 lists of some otherwise posters.
The way it is, it's a circle jerk and will have as much credibility outside the codex, as IGN list has for us. The voting is boring, tells us nothing new compared to previous one and Jaesun is a faggot.
I doubt we would be in danger of anything strange making it into top 10 anyway.

How much of a retard do you have to be to actually even consider adding DesuX, SS2, JA2 or X-Com to a list of top RPGs?

JA2 is more of an rpg, than half of the list.

 

[evdk]

Those are the usual suspects, I'm actually more interested in the rest of the list...

I didn't post the entire list because of a silly reason that in retrospect is silly, so here's the current top 60 for the curious. Same disclaimer applies.

Spoiler

#01 - 131 - Fallout
#02 - 117 - Planescape: Torment
#03 - 104 - Fallout 2
#04 - 99 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
#04 - 99 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
#06 - 89 - Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
#07 - 68 - Baldur's Gate
#08 - 66 - Icewind Dale
#09 - 65 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
#10 - 63 - Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (Exp Only)
#11 - 62 - Fallout: New Vegas
#12 - 60 - Deus Ex
#13 - 59 - The Temple of Elemental Evil
#14 - 54 - Gothic II
#15 - 46 - Wizardry 8
#15 - 46 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
#15 - 46 - Betrayal at Krondor
#18 - 42 - Jagged Alliance 2
#19 - 39 - The Witcher
#20 - 38 - Icewind Dale II
#21 - 35 - System Shock 2
#22 - 34 - Darklands
#22 - 34 - Knights of the Chalice
#24 - 33 - Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
#25 - 32 - Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
#26 - 31 - Ultima VI: The False Prophet
#26 - 31 - Might and Magic: World of Xeen
#28 - 30 - The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
#28 - 30 - Gothic
#28 - 30 - Wasteland
#28 - 30 - Wizardry VII: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
#32 - 29 - Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
#33 - 27 - Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
#33 - 27 - Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos
#35 - 26 - Divine Divinity
#36 - 23 - Pool of Radiance
#37 - 22 - Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
#38 - 21 - Diablo
#39 - 20 - Arx Fatalis
#40 - 19 - Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
#40 - 19 - Diablo II
#42 - 18 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
#42 - 18 - Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny
#42 - 18 - Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
#42 - 18 - Ultima VII: The Black Gate
#46 - 17 - Ancient Domains of Mystery
#46 - 17 - Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
#48 - 16 - Risen
#48 - 16 - Dragon Age: Origins
#48 - 16 - Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra
#51 - 15 - Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark (Exp Only)
#52 - 14 - Dungeon Master
#52 - 14 - Anachronox
#54 - 13 - The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings
#55 - 12 - Neverwinter Nights
#55 - 12 - Mount & Blade: Warband
#57 - 11 - Divinity II
#57 - 11 - Neverwinter Nights 2
#57 - 11 - Curse of the Azure Bonds
#60 - 10 - Eye of the Beholder

Dungeon Master at #52? This is an outrage!

 

[Wyrmlord]

I could see liking BG more than BG2 just for preferring low level AD&D and for the progression where you start out struggling and where getting gear like full plate or a sword +1 is an actual milestone instead of having bags of magic weapons and armour. It's certainly a playstyle that I find more appealing.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but low level early game BG just involves lucky dice rolls, while BG2 involves both sides using the most powerful tools in their arsenal.

You have liches using Imprisonment on members of your party, while you protect them with Spell Immunity: Abjuration. Enemy and allied mages give themselves Protection from Magical Energy and Protection from Magical Weapons, while using Improved Invisibility to ensure that neither is able to use Breach spells against one another. When high level evil mages cast powerful stunning spells or death spells, the clerics use Holy Word to destroy the other side's spellcasting. And the best part is, such encounters can be triggered quickly in Athkatla from the start of Chapter 2. You get into some really nasty fights in Delosaurus Inn and with the extorting party in the sewers.

Whenever I fire BG1, I know I won't be doing any of those things, but will have to start out with fighting kobolds in Nashkel mines. That's just not for me.

 

[Grunker]

How about this apologetic faggot's perspective: Both have merits and strengths, one being tactical diversity and the feelings of a constantly shifting field of battle (BG2) and the other being getting by with limited resources and a more solid feeling of progression as going from three to four magic missiles (ie. from level 5 to level 7) feels like a seriously major improvement?

Both games share some common strengths (enemy diversity, selected encounterdesign, efficient at dealing with "trash"-combat (I like trash-mobs, fuck the haters)) but also has very different ways of handling progression and combat, and two distinct "feels."

The stories also had different merits; from innocent beginnings to all-out professional adventurer was really convincing in BG1, whereas BG2's story of personal vengeance (fuck Imoen) hunting a Wizard throughout Faerûn and the planes was "epic" - and not in the gay way, but in the cool, oldschool time-and-place-spanning kind of way.

 

[Carrion]

How much of a retard do you have to be to actually even consider adding DesuX, SS2, JA2 or X-Com to a list of top RPGs?

Well, technically Jaesun didn't ask people to list their top RPGs but their favorite games that are RPGs (rule #8). There's a difference there. I don't think those games are necessarily great RPGs, but they're great games that could be classified as RPGs (or at least I would classify DX and SS2 first and foremost as RPGs rather than shooters whereas JA2 and X-Com sit a bit too tightly in another genre to make it to the list).

 

[Themadcow]

Pools of Darkness is far, far too good not to be ranked in the top 60 - particularly as Pools of Radiance is there, which is inferior in most respects. Still, I always get the feeling that not that many people actually played PoD compared to some of the other Gold Box games. Wiz 8 being up above 6 and 7 could simply be a taste thing but also says to me that lack of availability of 6/7 on non-emulator formats is a bit of a killer for this list.

 

[suejak]

My gut agrees on JA2 not being an RPG, but sit back and think for a minute about whether JA2 and Baldur's Gate are actually different in some significant way. All I can come up with is lithe and clean Imoen (white meat) versus spicy, sinewy sexpot Deidranna (dark meat).

Aside from the strategy overlay of JA2 -- perhaps only 25-30% of the game at most -- the games are basically the same format. You fight, you level up, you get new equipment, you move to a new area, etc. Quests and shit are interspersed as well. JA2 even has you killing monsters in mines.

 

[Jasede]

One is a strategy game and the other is an RPG. The focus is different. In one you "adventure" to follow/explore a plot or land - in the other you try to fulfill a large objective by defeating smaller ones. Every map in JA 2 has an objective: kill the militia, liberate, repair your weapons. In an RPG there's much less emphasis on the objective and more emphasis on the mapping/exploring/adventuring. They're closely related.

But why argue? It'll just go on forever and ever. And we'll do it all over again in a few years...

 

[suejak]

I mean, all you're doing is using different words for the same thing. In JA2, all you do is follow/explore a plot or land, and in Baldur's Gate, you fulfill a large objective by defeating smaller ones. You're leaving out just as much of the game no matter how you swap the proper nouns.

Every map in JA2 does NOT have an objective. You can do whatever you want in the map. You will probably be killing bad guys, though, which coincidentally is also what you'll be doing in Baldur's Gate.

If you're not killing enemies, then you're chatting up NPCs. Interestingly, this is also what you do in JA 2.

In JA2, you go from map to map on a grid and do whatever you want to do in each map. In Baldur's Gate, you go from map to map on a bigger sprite map with little sprite markers on it, and you do whatever you want to do in each map.

Now, the atmosphere of the two games is different, for sure. If that's your point, then we're in agreement. For one thing, JA 2 doesn't have the voice actor from Disney's TaleSpin making growling noises all the time.

 

[Jasede]

I don't know. The meaning in a way is the same, I can see that- but the connotations are different.
Maybe you're doing the same things but you're doing one in RPG clothes and the other in a strategical kind of game's clothes. I don't know how to better describe it. But like I said, you'll just have a similar (perhaps more fruitful) discussion about this with someone else in a couple of years. Hopefully someone who can explain things better and isn't tired of doing so.

I thought I had a pretty good explanation a couple years ago - but beats me if I can remember. We've all discussed this topic so often it all blurs together in memory.

 

[Blasterhead]

Even using fuzzy definitions JA2 is pretty clearly on the rpg side of things. Character creation, development, npc interaction, etc. Tactical combat is also well within rpg tradition and also happens to be really good (this is probably the most confusing part--all rpgs should aspire to something this good). There is the strategy component, of course, in deciding how to advance on the map and controlling large parties, but I think the emphasis is as a tactical rpg.

I'd hesitate to put x-com, however, since the rpg elements are weaker and your units only really exist inside the bubble of tactical missions & there isn't really any attempt to develop them as characters (unless the player uses their imagination).. They're closer to mere units in a war game. Not denying that there are still rpg parts, but the emphasis is less.

 

[Karmapowered]

Sirtech could into the Wizardry's, but suddenly can't into RPGs with JA2 ?

Fuck the haters.

JA 2 *is* a RPG, and dare I say one of the best ever made (EDIT : especially with 1.13).

It's time to admit it. In a decade or less, the Hivemind will be ready to do the same with Sengoku Rance anyway .

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I agree with Jasede here. JA2 never felt like a RPG for me. If only because there are way too many characters and some of them you hardly manage, like Flo training militia. It doesn't feel very "RPGish" to me to constantly switch from party to party either. Plus, a RPG is about riding a horse, killing things. There are no horses in JA2.
Anyway, the frontier between JA2 and a RPG is thin enough that this debate can indeed go on forever, "you play the laptop guy" and all that...

 

[agentorange]

It's certainly more an RPG than any modern arpeegees, not that that's saying much. You can create an entire party from scratch, though it's kind of cheating to do that. And with 1.13 there is an insane amount of gear variety, with dozens of pistols with almost the same basic stats with only minor variations in things like ammo count and stability, and no casual weapon comparison tool tips popping up to help you compare your gear. There are actual consequences to you wasting time, as the Queen's minions will take back territory. There are quite a few hidden side-quests, some with multiple solutions (the chalice, the woman in the porn shop), some with random elements (the location of the chopper pilot). The entire map is open from the start, and I believe you can go directly to Deidrrana at any point in the game and kill her. Certainly more reasons for it to be considered an RPG than not.

 

[Karmapowered]

More than JA2, I am actually surprised not to see more of the Goldbox games in the current list.

As the storyfag that I am, I have never really been keen on pure Dungeon crawlers, but people here have kept praising those games day in day out for years.

of the Kodex ?

 

[agentorange]

Most people, like me, probably just haven't gotten around to playing them, they are time consuming and time is in short supply.... I did play some of that FRUA module that Jaeson posted about. The thing about a "Best Of" list is that it is really a "Best Games You Have Played" list.