RPG Codex Top 50 cRPGs - Retards who cannot read and Discussion thread

[Lonely Vazdru]

Dungeon crawlers are not decline when CRPGs are concerned. They are the best computers have (yet) to offer. Until we see a proper AI, computers can't simulate a DM, and without a DM, the only relevant aspect of RPGs kept intact by CRPGs are combat and exploration. I consider RPGs trying to offer stories or dialogues as their main focus way more decline, given the shit they actually deliver (Torment excluded, of course).

 

[Karmapowered]

I didn't mean to imply that dungeon crawlers in themselves were a decline (not sure how one could defend such an idiocy either).

I am fairly open-minded on the question of what people enjoy in their RPGs or not, as long as it manages to keep *some* standards.

Just no Goldbox games in the current top 20 may be perceived as such by some here.

Anyway, votes will keep running till next year at least, so there's still a lot of time ahead before reaching definitive conclusions.

 

[octavius]

Most people, like me, probably just haven't gotten around to playing them, they are time consuming and time is in short supply....

Actually most of the Gold Box are rather short, compared to other party based games.

But it sure is disappointing to see them so low on the list.

 

[agentorange]

I don't think he was saying Dungeon Crawlers are a decline, but that the fact that more people didn't nominate them is a decline. Totally disagree with what you are saying though; a large part of the experience of pnp rpgs is the plot, story, encounters, character descriptions supplied by the human DM. Imagine if the module for Temple of Elemental Evil consisted of one page of "You go into the temple of elemental evil and kill things through 5 floors then you kill the main bad dude", with the rest of the pages being comprised of combat statistics which the DM reads aloud. And I really hope we never come to the point where we are entrusting a computer to generate narratives...The point you make about most story focused RPGs having shit stories is true, but that is just because the writers are shit, not because it's inherently wrong to focus on the story; writing is difficult, and unlike with a combat engine you can't develop a story and then use it throughout all your games (or you can, and a lot of developers do, but that is why a lot of stories are shit)...

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Totally disagree with what you are saying though; a large part of the experience of pnp rpgs is the plot, story, encounters, character descriptions supplied by the human DM. Imagine if the module for Temple of Elemental Evil consisted of one page of "You go into the temple of elemental evil and kill things through 5 floors then you kill the main bad dude", with the rest of the pages being comprised of combat statistics which the DM reads aloud. And I really hope we never come to the point where we are entrusting a computer to generate narratives...

Sounds a lot like what I said. Namely that computers can't reproduce anything pnp properly except combat and exploration. Until they can emulate a DM, and a good one at that since a shitty human DM can be worse than even Bioware romances, I'll take the dungeon crawlers.

The point you make about most story focused RPGs having shit stories is true, but that is just because the writers are shit, not because it's inherently wrong to focus on the story; writing is difficult, and unlike with a combat engine you can't develop a story and then use it throughout all your games (or you can, and a lot of developers do, but that is why a lot of stories are shit)...

That's true, but it's also because they want to keep their stories simple enough to appeal to as many people as they possibly can. Having a good/deep/original story can be done in a video game, but don't expect a hit. PnP RPGs, OTOH being focused towards a more limited crowd of customers can, and often do, take the incredible risk to go, or at least try to go, for something deeper or new.

 

[Haba]

It doesn't matter what you 90's born newfag müllschlucker think.

I take great offence on the tenacity that GENRE RAPISTS try to RAPE THE STRATEGY GENRE. Jagged Alliance, Silent Storm, 7.62 etc. were not designed as role-playing games. They were not marketed as role-playing games. They were not bought as role-playing games. You cannot rewrite history to get rid of an entire independent genre you shits!

If a black metal band shows some blues influences on their new album, that doesn't turn the album into a blues album. You don't go putting it on charts as "top 50 blues albums of all time". If you try, you get beaten to death by angry headbangers. And blues niggers.

Keep your RPG out of my STRATEGY, you worthless soggy cunts!

If someone just happens to suck A BIT of the blighted RPG COCK, it doesn't automatically turn them into closet RPGAY.

 

[agentorange]

 

[Haba]

Come a bit closer, you little müllschlucker, I'll show what god intended for you

Blame the larpers at IGN for the US box cover.

 

[agentorange]

 

[Haba]

Ok, now you are just intentionally missing my point. If I put my dick in you, it doesn't mean that you become me. You're still you, with a bit of Haba dribbling from your hole.

 

[Karmapowered]

I take great butthurt

I have a special something for you, honey.

Hoping you're feeling better soon!

 

[Metro]

According to the Codex's go-to expert game reviewer, Total Biscuit, Far Cry 3 is an RPG so might want to put that on people's lists, too.

 

[suejak]

Dungeon crawlers are not decline when CRPGs are concerned. They are the best computers have (yet) to offer. Until we see a proper AI, computers can't simulate a DM, and without a DM, the only relevant aspect of RPGs kept intact by CRPGs are combat and exploration. I consider RPGs trying to offer stories or dialogues as their main focus way more decline, given the shit they actually deliver (Torment excluded, of course).

Welp, THIS guy's a fag.

 

[suejak]

Ok, now you are just intentionally missing my point. If I put my dick in you, it doesn't mean that you become me. You're still you, with a bit of Haba dribbling from your hole.

So what's the difference between Baldur's Gate and JA2?

 

[Haba]

I have a special something for you, honey.

Hoping you're feeling better soon!

Uninitiated newfags are innately unable to make my ass cheeks tingle. Say hello to my friend from Lithuania for me!

 

[evdk]

Dungeon crawlers are not decline when CRPGs are concerned. They are the best computers have (yet) to offer. Until we see a proper AI, computers can't simulate a DM, and without a DM, the only relevant aspect of RPGs kept intact by CRPGs are combat and exploration. I consider RPGs trying to offer stories or dialogues as their main focus way more decline, given the shit they actually deliver (Torment excluded, of course).

Welp, THIS guy's a fag.

A combatfag maybe.

 

[octavius]

Dungeon crawlers are not decline when CRPGs are concerned. They are the best computers have (yet) to offer. Until we see a proper AI, computers can't simulate a DM, and without a DM, the only relevant aspect of RPGs kept intact by CRPGs are combat and exploration. I consider RPGs trying to offer stories or dialogues as their main focus way more decline, given the shit they actually deliver (Torment excluded, of course).

Welp, THIS guy's a fag.

Did you smoke him?

 

[CorpseZeb]

So what's the difference between Baldur's Gate and JA2?

Gee... games are defining the genre not the genre defines the games, so... your question is sort of irrelevant, I'm afraid.

 

[Haba]

Ok, now you are just intentionally missing my point. If I put my dick in you, it doesn't mean that you become me. You're still you, with a bit of Haba dribbling from your hole.

So what's the difference between Baldur's Gate and JA2?

Jagged Alliance began in 1991 under the name of "ambush" as a real time strategy game where you manage a team of mercenaries.

Bioware doctors were PnP RPG geeks and they wanted to try their hand in making a PC cRPG, so they made Battleground: Infinity - a real-time multi-player RPG. They got AD&D license after demoing it to a publisher, and thus Battleground: Infinity turned into what became Baldur's Gate.

Jagged Alliance characters have hidden fixed traits and they have stats.

Bioware's characters have hidden traits, stats and extensive backstory and personal quests.

Jagged Alliance was built from the beginning to be a tactical war game with a strong strategic layer. The "characters" have personality, but you can't influence it. Their stats improve, but they do not evolve throughout the story. JA mercs are tools, to make them more interesting and memorable they have personality. They could be tanks or robots, the game wouldn't change that much.

BG was built to be a computer RPG that'd appeal to a wider modern audience while being faithful to the AD&D rule-set and the Faerûn setting. NPC traits and personality was added for storytelling reasons, to make the game more immerse.

Jagged Alliance got more RPG-like features through the development (though many of those have been solid part of wargames for decades). Even though more icing was added to the cake, the core of the game remains the same. It is a strategy game with a tactical, turn based layer. You kill enemy chess pieces with your own pieces and try to win the scenario.

If you start removing similar RPG features from both BG and JA, in the end you'll have a role playing game and a tactical strategy game - because that is what those games were designed to be. RPG-like features do not make a war game RPG, they will remain as superficial flavour additions.

 

[Karmapowered]

http://ndnw.net/JA2/relationships.html



Not like you've ever been any kind of authority on the matter, but you're so full of it, I begin to understand the butthurt.

 

[Haba]

Get back to me once you learn how to read.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Dungeon crawlers are not decline when CRPGs are concerned. They are the best computers have (yet) to offer. Until we see a proper AI, computers can't simulate a DM, and without a DM, the only relevant aspect of RPGs kept intact by CRPGs are combat and exploration. I consider RPGs trying to offer stories or dialogues as their main focus way more decline, given the shit they actually deliver (Torment excluded, of course).

Welp, THIS guy's a fag.

Why the capital this ? Am I some special fag ?

 

[Themadcow]

Aye, strange that the Gold Box games aren't higher up but (for whatever reason) when I play them now it is painful to find your way around some of the locations unless you're constantly referring to the map. Doors are virtually indistinguishable from the scenery in some of the dungeons, which doesn't make for a pleasant experience. The combat is still spectacularly good, but most of them suffer a bit from an overabundance of random encounters. That, combined with some of the less intuitive D&D mechanics (spell memorisation, class lvl caps) probably means that for people who entered CRPGing after 1993 it's a steep and unfriendly learning curve.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Combatfags and storyfags are ruining my genre, halp!

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I think that too many people haven't played enough RPGs to give a decent listing. I'm guilty of this as well. I just finished Might and Magic 1 and 2 for the first time and thought them great, so they made the list. I only played the Magic Candle 1 for a couple of hours, mostly because I was just tooling around with my DOSBox archive, as I am focused on the M&M series right now. I can already tell that Magic Candle is a pretty solid RPG and will likely make my top 25 next year when I get more time to play it. I also haven't played Dark Heart of Uukrul, Darklands or the rest of the Gold Box series past Pool of Radiance, its sequel and FRUA, but I am sure some of those games will make the list, too, when I get around to them. The RPGs with large marketing budgets were the ones that most likely were played by more Codexers, which skews the list. If 10 Codexers played Magic Candle 1 and nine of those put it in their top 25 list, it must be a pretty good game. On the other hand, 200 Codexers might have played Diablo 3 and 11 of them put it in their top 25. Percentage wise, that would look like a horrible score, but the eleven Diablo 3 fans outnumber the nine Magic Candle fans, and so the combined list we are developing is skewed in favor of a worse game.