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sawyer wants rpg to evolve

Generic-Giant-Spider

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Success is a difficult thing to gauge because it can mean something different to one person than another. I don't think AoD was made to be some financial success and generate a huge cashflow to the extent of an AAA studio game. I think it was an idea that motivated a small number of guys to work hard over a decade to see the release of and get a story out there they believed strongly in telling that they never gave up on when they very easily could have. That's dedication and passion you have to respect.

So to me, Age of Decadence is a success because it went from some cool idea randomly thought up into seeing the light of day for everyone else that happens upon it to also enjoy or hate.
 
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Success is a difficult thing to gauge because it can mean something different to one person than another. I don't think AoD was made to be some financial success and generate a huge cashflow to the extent of an AAA studio game.
They sold more than 120k at a reasonable price. That's not pocket change if you have a team of six people.
 

Azarkon

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Do you always deal in such blacks and whites? Developers don't despise Age of Decadence. But can you say with a straight face they think it moved the genre forward? We're talking about an industry in which the trend is increasingly towards simulation, towards hiding the math, towards simplicity, style, and "seamless gameplay." Age of Decadence is the opposite of that. So is Pillars of Eternity. Do you think today's indie developers believe throwing a bunch of math and walls of text at the player is the right way to go? Of course they'll say nice, polite words, and in the case of InXile, play up their grognard reputation in time for Torment's release. But I would question the sanity of anyone who thinks that developers looked at Age of Decadence and thought this was the future of CRPGs, when every GDC you attend, the guys at the panels are saying almost the exact reverse of what Vince D. Weller's development philosophy is.

There was one area in which Age of Decadence sort of matched up with what developers today are pushing, and that's with respect to being more reactive to player actions. Besides that, the game is a huge throw back to the old school of not just CRPG design, but game design in general.
 
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Glaucon

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Stats are not a necessary part of the RPG genre, but they're logistically and economically unavoidable if you want some form of deep, meaningful gameplay.
If you want to take this subject seriously you need to acknowledge that a cRPG is an attempt to implement a RPG in videogame format. This will include a model where actions of the player are governed by abilities and skills, namely, stats and skills. The rules of this world are the mechanics. Let’s assume this as a given. Like every game, it is an attempt to surpass an unnecessary challenge, so the challenge element is also non-negotiable—sorry experimental hipster artsy games. Ok, now it’s undeniable that is a social artefact and like in all artefacts, there are few properties that gravitates around it because they help it to achieve its function of modelling abilities and skills (character progression, SPs, itemisation, exploration, etc). There, now we have some provisional working notion to discuss and make judgement of values about cRPGs instead of following the usual heideggerian approach of believing the definition lies on the etymology of the words used in the RPG abbreviation or the irrationalist attitude of accepting every given classification of the industry at face value, which is far too corrupted by conflicts of interest and elementary confusions to be trusted.
If you want to take this subject seriously you should acknowledge that the conventions of the first PnP Rpgs are not some platonic ideal that will forever determine the direction of the entire genre. They haven't even determined the direction of PnP RPGs.

I like stat driven RPGs. They're a whole lot of fun and I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.

The word "role" is indeed decisive, and you aren't engaging in Heideggerian obtuseness by acknowledging that. The whole RPG genre fundamentally points in the direction of the simulation of a variety of human (or "sentient"--fantasy races are humans) types, and it happens to be that a very convenient and fun way of doing this is by abstracting humans into numerical qualities (age, race, skills, attributes, etc) that the player reconstructs into a character which they then manipulate, plan out, and develop over the course of a game (of course, this is always what is happening under the hood of any video game). Anyone can acknowledge that, to give the obvious examples, stealth games are more stealthy than playing a rogue in an rpg and (certain) action games give an impression of being a warrior more so than playing a warrior in an rpg. The guy before who kept mentioning Stalker is right--Stalker allows you to play a rogue better than any existing rpg. This is because it reproduces in vivid detail the concrete experience of sneaking, being an assassin, etc. Unfortunately that's all it does. It doesn't allow you to play a variety of types and observe how they develop and interact with one another in the world of the game (whatever that world is). I would say that is what is central to RPGs: the ability to develop a variety of character types (in a more expansive sense than minor changes in combat) within a game world that contains some narrative and can support a variety of character types.

(btw, I think someone recently posted a thread describing RPGs more or less along these lines, but even more radically. can't remember the name of the thread though.)
Stats are not a necessary part of the RPG genre...
Stats are part of every day life.
Representing players as a collection of numerical properties that the player manipulates, deliberately and necessarily is not a necessary part of the RPG genre (or life).
 
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Glaucon

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Certain things people do can be quantified (and even then--not necessarily). Cool.
 

laclongquan

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Based on what Sawyer talked, and where he did that talk, I see that he made overture to potential investors

1. Bethesda mention is just an overture to the kind of return that investors want to get. Whatever else, their sale number is impressive and any businessman need that kind of hook to lure investors.

2. Innovation talk is just pure marketing room bullshit. Any fucking marketing dialog got innovation in as intro and epilogue. I put absolutely no strength in that kind of shit.

So conclusion: pure marketing pr tactic. You guys just get baited and hooked in. No idea about investor though.
 

Elex

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Stats are not a necessary part of the RPG genre, but they're logistically and economically unavoidable if you want some form of deep, meaningful gameplay.
the problem is if they replace stat with nothing.
or when stat mean nothing (like in elex)

i don’t think traditional rpg fans will complain if you replace stat with a deep background generation that add bonus/malus.
 

FeelTheRads

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The idea that gated content is something to be encouraged (by taking it to a scale traditional cRPGs haven't taken it before), and actually doing it, is revolutionary. If you are saying Fallout 2 and Arcanum are like that, you are blatantly lying.


The Village Idiot strikes again.

So, Fallout and Arcanum had gated content, but in smaller amount than AoD and that means they didn't do it before AoD. :hearnoevil:

Speaking of bucket on the head...

A path isn't a quest. It's just a path through a quest. I'm talking about many, many quests being locked out from the get go based on your character build and not depending on whether you choose to help that or this NPC.

What's the difference, really? It's still gated content that you can only see with certain builds or when doing certain choices. Regardless of whether they're quests or just paths through quests, and Fallout and Arcanum had both.

Again, AoD is all made of this, that's it. Nothing innovative about a visual novel. And certainly nothing innovative about more sugar in your coffee.

That's not what "reactivity" means, retard. Oh, the brilliant reactivity of Bethesda games: putting a bucket on people's heads and have them stand around like idiots while you steal their entire stock.

Oh, really, retard? Then reactivity is whatever the developers had the time and imagination to script?
No, retard, sorry, it's not in any way like putting a bucket on people's heads, it's actually using the game's systems to solve a problem, not abusing AI flaws.

You are a moron.

The fact is: Fallout and Arcanum did gated content before AoD. The fact that AoD did more of it is pretty much irrelevant to anything.
 
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Glaucon

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Stats are not a necessary part of the RPG genre, but they're logistically and economically unavoidable if you want some form of deep, meaningful gameplay.
the problem is if they replace stat with nothing.
or when stat mean nothing (like in elex)

i don’t think traditional rpg fans will complain if you replace stat with a deep background generation that add bonus/malus.
I just mean to say stats are an easy way to represent human capacities that would more properly be expressed in terms actual gameplay but can't be because of the the huge cost of implement. A "stealth skill" or "blacksmithing skill" is easier to implement than actual (fun) gameplay attempting to reproduce some version of those activities--and reciprocity in terms of interaction with other skills, level design, etc. The amount choices RPGs want to offer you (the width of simulation) means those choices have to be abstract and mathematical--but for economic and logistical reasons. Not because this is really intrinsic to the RPG experience.
 

Iskramor

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So Sawyer is assuming that the essence of RPGs is C&C because of the words "role-playing" in the abbreviation. That's retarded heideggerian reasoning. By that logic, we should think that Calculus should be about the use of small pebbles from an abacus, because that's the etymology of the word. Brilliant. Let me repeat this post:

The risk with these discussions about cRPG definitions is giving too much importance to the elements of the definiens of your definition at the expenses of actual gameplay elements that are integral to the genre. Let’s suppose for the sake of argument that cRPGs are attempts to surpass unnecessary challenges where players’ abilities are represented by stats and skills in a gameplay that involves narrative choices. By that definition T:ToN is a genuine cRPG, but Wizardry is not genuine cRPG. However, and that’s the catch, T:ToN has shallow character building, bad character progression, awful exploration, bad combat system, horrendous itemization and superficial gameplay, whereas Wizardry has engrossing character building, excellent character progression, rewarding exploration and good itemization. So at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter that T:ToN does fit our definition of genuine cRPGs, but Wizardry doesn’t, because the first one fails in everything that we should expect from a cRPG, whereas the last one does so many things well in a way that is consistent with one would expect from a stat/skill informed gameplay that is a much more real cRPG. Another way you can think of it is that pure combat heavy stat games are like heavy combat P&P campaigns designed by a DM that focus on combat. No one would be retarded enough to suggest that your session was not genuine RPG because it was all combat, because the gameplay was stat/skill determined, etc.

I could also spend the whole day discussing how some of these gameplay elements (character progression, levelling, etc) are not essential to a cRPG in the strict sense of the term, but should be implemented in every cRPG because they are fulfilling for this type of gameplay. Once again, the rational reconstructions we can come up have little importance compared to the realities and specificities of the type of gameplay that we are trying to reinforce and flourish. Unless, of course, we are interested in something altogether different, like FPS. In that case, we should throw in the trash all that AD&D and PnP bullshit about dice, stats, etc. But then again, why bother calling this cRPG if we are obviously doing something else?

Tl;dr It's not a matter about the meaning of words RPG considered in abstract, but a matter of knowning the history of the genre and their distinctive characteristics. Instead of labelling everything that we want to play or sell as cRPGs (FPSs, action games, etc) and trying to make them into something they are not, we should be focusing even more on their PnP origins and refining the traditional formula.
Its his definition/vision he never claimed its absolute truth.
 

JarlFrank

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About Age of Decadence: it's a good game that experimented into a certain direction and succeeded at doing what it wanted to do. But is this the direction RPGs should involve into? Or, on a more subjective level, is it the direction I would like RPGs to develop into, or the direction I would have developed the Fallout/Arcanum style of RPG into if I had been in VD's place? No, it's not. Which just goes to show that there are so many different potential avenues for the classic RPG to develop into, and AoD is just one of those avenues.

While AoD serves up a massive amount of choice and consequence for the player, it also feels like it's railroading the player to a certain extent, and focuses more on providing the player with a couple of distinct paths than it focuses on providing the player with an open playing field filled with role playing opportunities. In this way, as inspired as it may be by Fallout and Arcanum, it deviates rather significantly from those two games. In Fallout, you're released upon the world and can go anywhere and do anything right from the start. Go to Junktown, help either Gizmo or Kilian, or neither of them, just ignore it, don't even have to visit the place. Same with every other place. The game presents you with locations and quest opportunities, and some quests are mutually exclusive, and some offer choices that affiliate you with a certain faction, but you can also just ignore everything and head straight for the water chip and then the Master if you have previous game-knowledge and know where to find them. Similar with Arcanum: while this one has a more linear main quest with more steps in-betweeen (go to BMC, go to Wheel Clan, go to Qintarra, find Min Gorad etc etc), every location in the game offers you several quests, sometimes with conflicting sides to choose, and you can do whatever you want. You're never railroaded into anything and often get the opportunity to double-cross your employers, too.

Let's take the first town of Arcanum, Shrouded Hills, as an example. The gnomish wizard Jongle Dunne offers you the quest to destroy the town's steam engine cause he hates technology. The steam engine is guarded by a simple-minded dwarf who loves steam engines and is a rather loveable little dude. He attacks you when you attempt to wreck the steam engine, and usually this will end in his death, but if you dump Virgil outside and just get the dwarf to low HP so he panics and runs away, you can destroy the steam engine without killing the poor guy. Quest solved, you can collect your reward. BUT WAIT! If the dwarf survived, unlikely as it is (because most players will have Virgil with them who'll chase the dwarf down even if he flees), the town's constable will be pissed at you a few days later because the dwarf told him that it was you who destroyed the steam engine! Oh snap! This makes him refuse to talk to you about anything else, so you can forget about all the quests you can do for him. Now, if the dwarf is dead and the Constable doesn't know it was you who wrecked the engine, he'll ask you to fix the engine, which you can do by bringing him a large gear found in the nearby mine. BUT if you fix the engine for him, Jongle Dunne will feel betrayed by you, and he won't talk to you anymore. He has a second quest for you and is a trader, so both of this will be closed for you. Of course, if you know how to game the situation, you will solve Jongle Dunne's second quest for him first, and only THEN fix the steam engine. But to game the system this way, you need to know all the different factors involved in this questline, and it's really easy to accidentally piss off someone, but it's always clear and reasonable why they're pissed at you.

This is great quest design with choice and consequence that doesn't force the player into a railroad. You could describe Arcanum's quest structure as having several quest hubs the player can enter, and within those hubs he has a lot of quests available, some of which are mutually exclusive, some of which can block other quests or can piss off an NPC, etc.

AoD's structure is more of a tree-like structure with several branches, which all have branches of their own. So you have the legion branch, the assassins branch, the merchants branch, the thieves branch. Within each of these you have at least two branches, too. But once you're within a branch, you can't hop over to another. Like, if you joined the assassins you can't betray them for the thieves and join them instead later on. You can only make choices that are applicaple within the assassin branch: there's no "I'll betray my faction to the leader of another faction" kind of thing. If we were to apply that Shrouded Hills steam engine quest to AoD's structure, it would look like this: you can either choose to work with Jongle Dunne who hates tech and wants the steam engine destroyed, or team up with the constable who supports the town's industrialization. Within each NPC's quest path there are choices to make, including betrayal of your original employer, but you can't switch over to the other side at any point. Once you made the choice to either go with Dunne or the constable, you're in either the "Dunne path" or the "constable path".

That's how most of AoD works. There are many choices of paths, but once you've locked yourself into a path, you're in it, and the different paths don't overlap. While there are interactions with other factions, it never goes to the point where you can just switch sides, leave your current faction and join another. The game does what it does really well, but this structure is why many people call it a "glorified CYOA book".

Furthermore, AoD's path-railroading becomes all the more apparent when you give yourself additional stat and skill points with Cheat Engine (yeah decline blah blah casual blah, fuck off I like exploring options on my second playthrough by giving me high stats in everything and seeing where that can get me), because you'll realize that most of the skills you raised are completely useless unless you're following the path associated with them. Lockpicking, for example, is only used in the thieves questline. When I played an assassin, I was surprised how the thieving skills were essentially useless and the only real viable character builds were critical strike guy and combat guy. Same with the merchant, you essentially have to play a talky guy and stealth skills, for example, are useless. Even though it would have been cool to approach a merchant's guild quest with stealth by breaking into the mansion of a guild rival, stealing some blackmail material, then using that against him instead of your speech skills.

But this isn't how AoD's quests work: the quests are essentially CYOA style affairs with different choices and skillchecks, and consequences based on your choices and whether you manage to pass the checks or not.

This is quite different to a more goal-oriented and open quest design as we can see it in, for example, the first quest in Gothic 2: get into the city. There are multiple ways to get into the city, but the game never puts the choice before you and says: "Now you have these three methods to choose from: become a farmer so they let you in as a citizen, pay them a bribe so they let you in, or sneak around the wall and find a back entrance." Instead, you have to figure out these options by yourself and then choose the one that seems best to you. This is the kind of quest design that just puts a goal in front of you, then lets you tackle that goal with all the tools the game provides you.

And that's the direction I would take the classic RPG into: an open quest design where you're confronted with goal-oriented quests (get X, find out X, kill X etc) and then you can tackle these quests in any way you want, depending on the skillset of your character. Stealth, combat, diplomacy, all are valid approaches. In AoD, there is often only one approach that is truly valid, and that approach depends on which faction questline you are in. Going through the merchant questline as a pure fighter or pure stealth guy is impossible, or at least will end up giving you terrible results because you suck at all the options the quest presents to you, while the quests never allow you to make use of those skills you actually possess.

Now, AoD is a good game, and certainly a game designers can learn from - both as a positive and a negative example - and I wouldn't mind receiving more games of its kind. I'd certainly play an AoD2, and will play The New World when it's out. But it's not the direction I would have turned the genre into, and I doubt it's a direction anyone else but Vince would have chosen to go into, to be honest.

Which is why creative new designers who have a certain vision and know where they want to go are so important. AoD is a game of that kind. It doesn't fucking matter how influential it is on other developers or how well-known it is, what matters is that AoD itself is a game that took RPGs into a new direction because its lead designer was a guy with a vision who knew what he wanted to do, and he went into a new direction nobody had gone into before. If that isn't what evolving the genre is, then I don't know what is.

Thing is, the game is out there and can be played by anyone. Maybe a 12 year old kid just received a cracked copy of AoD on a DVD from a friend who said "check this out, the cracker who sold it to me told me it's awesome" and then he plays it and is amazed by the amount of choices the game throws at you, and 20 years later that kid works as a quest designer and takes inspiration from AoD. That scenario is entirely possible. Because that's exactly what happened with me and Arcanum - pal had a cracked CD with a new game, we installed it, played it, and the game blew us away, and that game was Arcanum and now I somehow managed to get into game design myself and write quests for an RPG and my idea of RPG quest design is heavily informed by Arcanum. But when you look at the industry as a whole, Arcanum can hardly be called influential.

A game is influential when someone, somewhere, somewhen is inspired by the experience of that game and makes his own game which is partially informed by that experience. AoD may very well give some people who played it new ideas on what to do or not to do with an RPG. Maybe in 10 years we'll receive a really good new indie RPG and in an interview the lead designer will mention how AoD was his main influence. Who knows?

But what you can't deny is that it evolved the genre by embarking into a new direction. That's a fact. Doesn't matter how influential or well known it is.
 

Cael

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I just mean to say stats are an easy way to represent human capacities that would more properly be expressed in terms actual gameplay but can't be because of the the huge cost of implement. A "stealth skill" or "blacksmithing skill" is easier to implement than actual (fun) gameplay attempting to reproduce some version of those activities--and reciprocity in terms of interaction with other skills, level design, etc. The amount choices RPGs want to offer you (the width of simulation) means those choices have to be abstract and mathematical--but for economic and logistical reasons. Not because this is really intrinsic to the RPG experience.
Newsflash, kid: VR hasn't gotten to the point where you can forge a sword yet, and even if it did, who the hell is going to want to go through the motions of actually forging a sword? Just roll the damned dice.
 

FeelTheRads

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While AoD serves up a massive amount of choice and consequence for the player, it also feels like it's railroading the player to a certain extent, and focuses more on providing the player with a couple of distinct paths than it focuses on providing the player with an open playing field filled with role playing opportunities.

Careful there, AoD fanbots will have a fit. What do you mean, clicking through a path that the developers scripted is not reactivity????
 

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Getting back to Sawyer, I think this is precisely the outcome he's trying to avoid. Sawyer doesn't want to be known as the grognard guy. He wants to be the Ken Levine of CRPGs. The guy who's worshiped at GDCs and high-profile digital entertainment events. To him, evolving the genre is about making it more accessible, not less. That's why he wants grognards to stop being so conservative. It isn't about supporting a game like Age of Decadence. It's about supporting games that the GDC hipster crowd can get behind. Games like Braid, Bastion, or more recently, What Remains of Edith Finch, Night in the Woods, Divine Divinity: Original Sin. Even though those games didn't sell like big time commercial titles, they cause a stir among people of influence - ie game journalists, convention members, etc.

 

Luckmann

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Getting back to Sawyer, I think this is precisely the outcome he's trying to avoid. Sawyer doesn't want to be known as the grognard guy. He wants to be the Ken Levine of CRPGs. The guy who's worshiped at GDCs and high-profile digital entertainment events. To him, evolving the genre is about making it more accessible, not less. That's why he wants grognards to stop being so conservative. It isn't about supporting a game like Age of Decadence. It's about supporting games that the GDC hipster crowd can get behind. Games like Braid, Bastion, or more recently, What Remains of Edith Finch, Night in the Woods, Divine Divinity: Original Sin. Even though those games didn't sell like big time commercial titles, they cause a stir among people of influence - ie game journalists, convention members, etc.

Alright, I got to hand it to him, that's one fashy thing to say and I must commend him for it.
 

JarlFrank

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
If you want to take this subject seriously you should acknowledge that the conventions of the first PnP Rpgs are not some platonic ideal that will forever determine the direction of the entire genre. They haven't even determined the direction of PnP RPGs.
In other words, cRPGs are whatever people decide to call cRPGs and PnP RPGs is whatever people decide to call RPGs. This is not a discussion. This is just you assuming a subjectivist mindset to defend your prejudices. There is no point arguing about this.
 
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Based on what Sawyer talked, and where he did that talk, I see that he made overture to potential investors

1. Bethesda mention is just an overture to the kind of return that investors want to get. Whatever else, their sale number is impressive and any businessman need that kind of hook to lure investors.

2. Innovation talk is just pure marketing room bullshit. Any fucking marketing dialog got innovation in as intro and epilogue. I put absolutely no strength in that kind of shit.

So conclusion: pure marketing pr tactic. You guys just get baited and hooked in. No idea about investor though.
Pretty much, but I got the impression that to get on the doorstep of big publishers is harder than ever. There is a strcuture in place, a well oiled machine that simply ignores traditional cRPGs. Obsidian got their chance early on but they blew it, either by releasing buggy games or simply because it is to damm hard to make connections in this business. Their sales are pocket change compared to the likes of Bethesda and that's all they care about.
 

HeatEXTEND

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While AoD serves up a massive amount of choice and consequence for the player, it also feels like it's railroading the player to a certain extent, and focuses more on providing the player with a couple of distinct paths than it focuses on providing the player with an open playing field filled with role playing opportunities.

Careful there, AoD fanbots will have a fit. What do you mean, clicking through a path that the developers scripted is not reactivity????
Says the AoD hatebot.:smug:
 

Sigourn

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The Village Idiot strikes again.

So, Fallout and Arcanum had gated content, but in smaller amount than AoD and that means they didn't do it before AoD.

The only retard in this discussion is you. I especifically stated AoD innovated by talking about SCALE. Now, I'm sure you would rather have a drawing for me to explain it to you, so I'll keep it simple. Which one of these do you think broke new grounds back in the day?

- The game that had a skill check or two about making your character a retard.
- The game that played around the idea of your character being a retard for the duration of your playthrough.

It's not that hard to understand the difference. Even today the Codex knows the difference between a New Vegas "retard" playthrough and a Fallout 1 "retard" playthrough. Even though Fallout has already done it, it would be a reality that people would praise the inclusion of such a playstyle in a future RPG. Why? Because it is about scale.

What's the difference, really?

You don't really know the difference between me not letting you have food and me having you choose between an apple or a banana? Really?

Oh, really, retard? Then reactivity is whatever the developers had the time and imagination to script?

YES! Finally you get it. Not sure if you have noticed, but scripting is the opposite of

abusing AI flaws.

A well scripted quest offers much more reactivity than whatever shallow mechanics are present in the game.

The fact is: Fallout and Arcanum did gated content before AoD.

When did I say the opposite?

The fact that AoD did more of it is pretty much irrelevant to anything.

"The fact at a game took it to unprecedent lengths is pretty much irrelevant to anything. Even when that caused it to receive tremendous amount of praise from the most anal RPG forum in the world."

:M
 

laclongquan

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Based on what Sawyer talked, and where he did that talk, I see that he made overture to potential investors

1. Bethesda mention is just an overture to the kind of return that investors want to get. Whatever else, their sale number is impressive and any businessman need that kind of hook to lure investors.

2. Innovation talk is just pure marketing room bullshit. Any fucking marketing dialog got innovation in as intro and epilogue. I put absolutely no strength in that kind of shit.

So conclusion: pure marketing pr tactic. You guys just get baited and hooked in. No idea about investor though.
Pretty much, but I got the impression that to get on the doorstep of big publishers is harder than ever. There is a strcuture in place, a well oiled machine that simply ignores traditional cRPGs. Obsidian got their chance early on but they blew it, either by releasing buggy games or simply because it is to damm hard to make connections in this business. Their sales are pocket change compared to the likes of Bethesda and that's all they care about.

Mmmm I think there's difference in philosophy, in a fundamental kinda way between game developers and game businessman.
Case in point: Bethesda

Bland and slightly bad text with easy gameplay including plenty of exploits.

Take their writings, for examples! They are not that bad just by accidental or personal taste of the guy directing writing teams. (You may not agree with me, but I am certainly not the unique, and there will be others agree with me about this level of shit writing, yet that's neither here nor there.)

There is a cold mind, disciplined and purely practical, driving those teams in writing out that kind of level. Anything above that kind of level, because I cant believe those number of writers can not accidentally once in a while write something good, will get analyzed and cut like a piece of bacon.

That kind of writings will fit, and does fit, the taste of the guys that zoned out playing Morrowind and Skyrim. Their activity will take in the text and get processed (ignored) in way they play the games. it will not leave anything strong enough to stir their mind, either good or bad. This is actually important, because it define the buying audience of Bethesda's games.

Thus why I said Obsidian got an unique chance in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Because the said mind cant, for a second, imagine that there's some team out there can drive the writings up so hard, and make the game become more challenging. Said mind slip that once and give Obsidian a chance to make a over-large fan mod that become FNV.

There will be no more slip. Said mind will never ever give another chance to a mod that can affect the purity of the buying audience of Bethesda's games. This is a business decision involved the long term strategy of game developing by Bethesda's teams.

Before you said bad writings can not sell, I invite you to read 50 Shades series and the likes in BDSM smut genre. They are intentionally written badly.
 

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