sawyer wants rpg to evolve

[Lyric Suite]

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[fantadomat]

What's with l1bruls and the need to just constantly dumb down shit?

Since when tutorial is dumbing down anything? All the classics had detailed and acessible manuals. You notice that people are idiots when the politicize the vocabulary and can't understand anything with nuance any longer. It's the type of mentality you also have with SJW types. The constant need to reassert their loyalty to a political group in unappropriate contexts is a clear sign of lack of intelligence.

Why don't you just leave people to enjoy their fanaticism? It is the only good thing that could come from SJW games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What's with l1bruls and the need to just constantly dumb down shit?

Since when tutorial is dumbing down anything? All the classics had detailed and acessible manuals. You notice that people are idiots when the politicize the vocabulary and can't understand anything with nuance any longer. It's the type of mentality you also have with SJW types. The constant need to reassert their loyalty to a political group in unappropriate contexts is a clear sign of lack of intelligence.

people like you are the reason FO2 has the temple of trials.

 

[JarlFrank]

Tutorials are ok IF they are optional and not a forced thing at the start of the game.

Good tutorials: Age of Empires 2 (seperate tutorial campaign that teaches the basics), Thief (tutorial mission is optional and can be skipped), Deus Ex (tutorial mission is optional and accessed by "tutorial" option), and pretty much the majority of older RTS games where tutorials as seperate skippable campaigns were the standard

Bad tutorials: pretty much every game where the tutorial level is mandatory and has to be gone through when starting a new game with no option to skip it. Fuck that shit. Make tutorials optional so I don't have to sit through it on replays/can ignore it the first time around and stumble around cluelessly.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I see this thread has moved away from the original topic.

Tutorials lol.

Bad tutorials: pretty much every game where the tutorial level is mandatory and has to be gone through when starting a new game with no option to skip it.

Ironically, that happens in games that don't need tutorials, like shooters. "Pres A to move forward XD XD XD".

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

people like you are the reason FO2 has the temple of trials.

The irony is that I never play tutorials.

 

[JarlFrank]

I see this thread has moved away from the original topic.

Tutorials lol.

Bad tutorials: pretty much every game where the tutorial level is mandatory and has to be gone through when starting a new game with no option to skip it.

Ironically, that happens in games that don't need tutorials, like shooters. "Pres A to move forward XD XD XD".

Also seems to be mandatory in some newer strategy games, where in older games you had seperate tutorial missions.

"To move the camera, move your mouse to the edge of the screen. To pan the view, press the middle mouse button and move you mouse. Do this simple navigational task, then we get to the next point in the tutorial!"

Uuuuuuh... okay, so like in every strategy game ever?

 

[Makabb]

Sawyer hunting for work at Bethesda ?

 

[fantadomat]

Sawyer hunting for work at Bethesda ?

I think that it is EA that Obsidian is eyeing.

 

[The Wall]

Gamers want Obsidian's upper management to evolve into capable, semi-sane and not utterly morally bankrupt humans. Or simply to life forms higher on evolutionary ladder then greedy slimes.

Sorry but we have entered the era of Every Thread on RPG Codex is About Chris Avellone's Truth Nukes About Obsidian.

Oh and btw rpg will evolve, Josh. It will evolve once it stops being made by Obsidian which seems to not be that far in the future, one way or another, Obsidian financially or rpgilly bankrupt. Don't know how he can talk about evolving anything when company itself is devolving with all talented people leaving and talentlesss, hipster, Feargus extended family hacks arriving...

 

[Shadenuat]

maybe because your might run muskets shooting anime suck and go against rpg idea of believable simulation of reality you discounted bag of soybeans for a head-designer.

night at the museum - the rpg.

unique setting in which retarded setting crossing is realistic and works. It could be a bit of room defense in which you will have C&C like: would you rather have ancient mummies from egypt themed room gain access to muskets, or defend that room and let them go north to perform necromancy on dinosaurs?

I now want this game because setting-crossing is awesome.

Gibmedat Wizardry 8 style of "spacefaring races land on fantasy planet, swords and magic meet rocket launchers and spaceships" kind of shit, it's been way too long since we've seen something like this and I crave it so hard.

Funny you say it, in parody like Wiz8 setting firearms... are not affected by STR and do exactly what you expect of them, which makes them so useful, especially in the beginning (muskets/blunderbuss on tech savvy Ranger = rape from afar)

 

[RatTower]

Sure you can cut out dice rolls and stats and whatnot, but the question is always: "Does that affect player agency?" or "Can I still express the same amount of information in a new system?"

At the end of the day you have to go back to the basics and wonder why, for example, stats are there in the first place?
They are there, to simulate certain attributes of a character, which in turn have an impact on my possibilities as a player, giving a role playing game its dynamic character.

It is true that a lot of modern games take the character sheet and it's basically just a list of attack/defense values. It doesn't really have any impact on the game other than combat.
In most cases it doesn't go further than stat requirements for weapons and in some games not even that.

It's true: You can drop such a system.
But not because the core idea of the system is bad.
It's because these games aren't properly developing the idea to truly unfold its potential.

Games have gradually dropped the impact of character sheets, in favor of convenience.
So it's no real surprise you'd end up with something that is near meaningless by now.

If Sawyer knows a proper alternative, to give players the same kind of agency as in old/tabletop RPGs, but in an easier way, well sign me up.
The problem is, if you really want deep simulation - which I as a player can influence more or less effectively - you'll very likely end up with character sheets again.

 

[Father Foreskin]

All games that have characters have character sheets, even mario kart. The attributes of a character need to in numeric format for the pc to get it. Whether this data can be altered in game or not, or how it is represented to the player on the screen changes nothing. There is no way to evolve around it. You just add things into it or remove them.

 

[Cael]

All games that have characters have character sheets, even mario kart. The attributes of a character need to in numeric format for the pc to get it. Whether this data can be altered in game or not, or how it is represented to the player on the screen changes nothing. There is no way to evolve around it. You just add things into it or remove them.

A number is the best way to represent something that has a range (e.g., skills, stats, etc.) for a computer game because a COMPUTER requires that kind of input. It doesn't do the hand-waving "rated Good" very well, that humans can get away with.

 

[TemplarGR]

It is always refreshing to find out that yet another significant RPG developer does not understand what an RPG is... Or intentionally misrepresents it because he wants to make something else with larger appeal for more mainstream revenue but while hoping to not alienate his previously core audience...

RPG games are simply put games where you indirectly control the decisions of other avatars in a game world. In contrast to direct control, like in action games etc, where the results of your avatar are dependent on your dexterity, agility, hand eye coordination etc, in RPG games you just make choices and the results depend on your avatar's strength, dexterity etc. The goal of an RPG game is to make it through a story while directing your avatars that way.

This definition is so simple and pure and i am surprised that most people don't get it. Far too many games are misrepresented today as RPGs (for example Dark Souls, Mass Effect), while they are action-rpg hybrids at best, with the focus on action.

All i see in Sawyers' opinion is that he really wants to make interactive movies for consoles, because that is where the big money are. No Sawyer, RPG's are not about the story. Visual Novels and point and click adventures are about the story. RPGs are about C&C and strategic interaction with the game world, and tactical combat. Yeah i know casuals don't buy this stuff, so you want to make another casual AAA game. Fine. Just don't call it RPG.

 

[Ninjerk]

RPG games

 

[Grauken]

Don't be hasty, his definition based on avatars sounds solid. Lord British would agree

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Don't be hasty, his definition based on avatars sounds solid. Lord British would agree

Any definition this strict ends up sounding ridiculous, just as Josh's definition is too strict and pisses lots of people off. Lots of strategy games become RPGs if you go by indirect avatar control. Hell, if you read this definition uncharitably, it excludes blobbers, too, since they're first person--no avatars, just portraits. A definition that excludes 40% of the Codex top 10 probably needs to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Prime Junta]

RPGs are like porn, you know it when you see it

 

[AwesomeButton]

RPG games

Joined: May 30, 2013

 

[Parabalus]

RPG games are simply put games where you indirectly control the decisions of other avatars in a game world. In contrast to direct control, like in action games etc, where the results of your avatar are dependent on your dexterity, agility, hand eye coordination etc, in RPG games you just make choices and the results depend on your avatar's strength, dexterity etc. The goal of an RPG game is to make it through a story while directing your avatars that way.

That might make sense if RPGs had no combat. Player agency still rules combat and some consider RPGs without combat fake/gamebooks.
You can't claim Baldur's Gate player skill has less impact than in Mass Effect, it's just RTS vs FPS skills.

Mass Effect even has C&C gates behind persuade skill numbers, by your logic that makes it even more a RPG than BG, so even without combat that statement if very iffy.

 

[Chippy]

Everything Sawyer said in the OP can be translated to: "It's not my fault 100% of the hardcore RPG fans didn't like the version of hardcore RPG I made".

 

[Chippy]

RPGs are like porn, you know it when you see it

Except POE 1/2 belongs in the watersports section.

 

[Hevnknekt]

Sawyer has been choking like a dog for a long time now. Has he even played Gothic? I think the only sensible step forward is for Björn Pankratz to give him a proper thrashing.

 

[aweigh]

I like taking everything down to extreme reductions to see if it still rings true:

- can a game without any dialog whatsoever still be an RPG?

So on and so forth! Seems to me the simplest way to break down the truly core elements of something.

Spoiler

Answer is yes! This means NPC dialog is not an elemental part of the RPG.