Vapourware Scam Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

[Luka-boy]

BZERKER01 looks like that fat x-wing pilot that blows up in Star Wars.

He sure could cosplay as Porkins.

 

[Metro]

... and here I am, being a disappointed sad panda because you didn't get it the first time I answered the same question.

When J_C is one of the few supporters you have, it should be an insta-red flag you're on the wrong side.

 

[J_C]

At least 'CAPN FLINT' looks somehow decent.

He is Donald Sutherland from Kelly's Heroes:

 

[RK47]

I had the misfortune to listen to a German podcast over the weekend run by German games industry veterans. All people with 20 or more years of experience in the business - for both national and international magazine publishers, games publishers and developers. They recently had the former CEO of Factor 5 on to tell them about the development history of the Rogue Squadron series for example. They had a guy on that was a developer/studio lead turned industry consultant. That guy is basically one of the people you get on board if you want to run a massive multiplayer game. Amongst his credits are lots and lots of free to play games but also stuff like Assassins Creed: Black Flag. By his own admission the largest game he ever worked on with more than 1000 people at some point working on it. 480 million dollars it cost to make that game (marketing budget included) according to him.

They talked about Star Citizen because the whole Serek Dmart thing made it over here too and the guys jumped at the chance to ask an actual insider about his opinion. The consultant was very polite (he wants to keep working in the industry after all) yet managed to state in very polite terms that what Chris Roberts has planned for Star Citizen is utterly impossible. Since Chris Roberts basically has the staff of an AAA studio, he compared it to other AAA titles that focus just on one aspect of Star Citizen costing more than 100 million to make. His verdict was that it is very unlikely to finish even just one of Star Citizen's modules on a 90 million budget if you have the staff and burn rate of a AAA dev.

He also confirmed that the burn rate is accurate - giving a $10,000 per person estimate as a ballpark number for estimating costs for development in the US. He went on to say that the way the organization of RSI/CIG is structured is very problematic because it eschews the hierarchies necessary to effectively run a 300+ people studio. You know things he's experinced with. He also had lots of anecdotes about everyone who has ever worked with Roberst basically thinking of him as a major cunt. He beasically said that he could imagine most of the things that recently came out being true going from his experience and what he's heard.

The shocking part was that the (ex-)journalists and industry veterans weren't having any of it.

One of the guys flat out asked: "But what if you are wrong and he can make the game he promised on a much smaller budget?" and "Even if not what's the downside? I never funded the game and so I don't lose anything if he fails. Also the backers at most lose $60 and that's basically no money at all".

They argued with an expert - an expert they invited to give them an inside scoop on the process of how to make AAA and free to play games - simply because he told them that what Chris Roberts claims to be making is a pipe dream and unrealistic on the budget he supposedly has to work with. Simply because "I'd like to see another Privateer" was more important to them than reality. They even mentioned Digital Anvil - a studio that managed to put out two half finished games in a period of ten years - and Starlancer/Freelancer as projects Chris Roberts spent millions on and never finished because of feature creep and mismanagement and somehow still came to the conclusion that "this time it's different".

This game will tank and take the whole crowdfunding idea with it while the whole industry stands by and waits for the second coming of Chris.

 

[Grotesque]

it should be an insta-red flag you're on the wrong side.

Apart from not being on either side, the fact that someone with the

tag is on a side makes me wonder if it's not better to take the opposite side, just to eradicate the foulness.

Beth$ has a spacial place in my heart. It's the reason I joined the Codex in 2006 after the shitfest Oblivion proved to be.
In conclusion, any genuine bethestard that is on the opposite side of mine is a confirmation I still have some intellect integrity.

 

[J_C]

His verdict was that it is very unlikely to finish even just one of Star Citizen's modules on a 90 million budget if you have the staff and burn rate of a AAA dev.

What a load of bullshit. Chris might have a problem delivering the whole package, but 90 million is more than enough to make the space faring part of the game possible. If only Chris would concentrate on just that, instead of making a jack of all trades game.

Also LOL'd at this part: If AAA studios can't make a AAA game for less than 100 million, than neither can Chris.

Yeah, because AAA studios and publishers are not famous for bleeding money marketing campaigns.

All in all, we can ridicule Chris for his ambitions and mismanagement, just don't believe the "experts" of the AAA industry.

 

[tuluse]

What a load of bullshit. Chris might have a problem delivering the whole package, but 90 million is more than enough to make the space faring part of the game possible. If only Chris would concentrate on just that, instead of making a jack of all trades game.

Also LOL'd at this part: If AAA studios can't make a AAA game for less than 100 million, than neither can Chris.

Yeah, because AAA studios and publishers are not famous for bleeding money marketing campaigns.

All in all, we can ridicule Chris for his ambitions and mismanagement, just don't believe the "experts" of the AAA industry.

Read again. 90 million would be enough money, but not the way he's structured the company (3 different devs all working). He is making a game like a AAA dev.

 

[RK47]

1. Journalist invites 'expert'.
2. Asks for opinion on Chris completing the game with 90 mil.
3. Expert says not with that kind of development style.
4. Instead of logic, the journalist says... WHAT IF HE CAN? SO WHAT IF...HE CAN'T? I DON'T LOSE ANYTHING CUZ I NEVER PAID FOR IT! NYAH NYAH NYAH!
5. And when reminded there are backers paying money for it, journalist have the perfect come back: 'SIXTY DOLLARS AIN'T NUFFIN!'
6. He totally pwned that expert, men.

 

[JamesDixon]

I don't believe that Chris Roberts will be able to make Scam Citizen. Every month that goes by without release just means that he's losing fans and financial support. Already there's a showing of fans dropping support of the game with cash. The prices of the higher tiers is insane for something that's not even in alpha state as a complete game.

 

[dbx]

Has the ship-reselling economy tanked yet? That would be a good indicator.

 

[Perkel]

I don't believe that Chris Roberts will be able to make Scam Citizen. Every month that goes by without release just means that he's losing fans and financial support. Already there's a showing of fans dropping support of the game with cash. The prices of the higher tiers is insane for something that's not even in alpha state as a complete game.

lol. I last month they got 3,5mln this month will be also something like 2mln+. Game by the end of year will reach 100mln+ and by release of sq42 something like 120mln~130mln assuming it will be by the end of year.

They even don't care about streatchgoals anymore. They stopped updating them at 65mln and even then those stretch goals were just new systems for persistant universe which they would probably do even without streatchgoals.

These are the major streatchgoals (aside from ships, systems and other minor stuff) and their status:

done or working with ton of info seen or low amount of info unknown status
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
$2.000.000 - minimal goal they wanted (their minimal goal)
- dogfighting multiplayer module,
- regular community updates
$3.500.000
- ship boarding
- cockpit decorations
$4.000.000
- professional mod tools
$5.000.000
- celebrity voice acting
- full blown FPS part of the game, zero gravity combat etc
- tablet companion app (inventory, ship systems etc)
- squadron 42 - 50 missions
$5.500.000
- professional mo-cap
$6.000.000 - (goal which would secure additional 20mln from investors)
- persistent universe 100 star systems
- full orchestral score
- Behind Enemy Line expansion to SQ42
$10.000.000
- they will build their own custom mo cap studio
$11.000.000
- move CIG from basements to new studio
$12.000.000
- build professional sound studio
$13.000.000
- fleet command, manage your whole fleet as commander from seat.
$14.000.000
- professional full length document "making of SC"
$19.000.000
- manage your own stations
$20.000.000
- FPS part of game will be also on planets
$22.000.000
- best in business facial capture tech
$26.000.000
- enhanced capital ship system. managing power, bulkheads, engineering, navigation etc
$41.000.000
- procedural generation R&D team, future iteration will have procedural generation in them aside from hand crafted content
$42.000.000
- control from website over your ships, 3D representation of ships in website, items, routes, loadouts, etc
$50.000.000
- full alien languages - they will work with proffesionals to create full on languages for 3 alien races in game. No general translation in universe anymore.
$51.000.000
- web based professional universe map
$54.000.000
- More AI npcs on stations and planets, nurses, doctors, salesmen, mechanics etc working with schedules and so on for SC
$64.000.000
- pets

 

[JamesDixon]

Perkel: According to the charts I've seen funding as been dropping off. I'll take the word over an industry professional over the pie in the sky prediction by Chris Roberts, especially considering they changed the TOS to buy them an additional year and refused all accounting of where the money was spent, despite the original TOS stating the contrary.

 

[Perkel]

Perkel: According to the charts I've seen funding as been dropping off. I'll take the word over an industry professional over the pie in the sky prediction by Chris Roberts, especially considering they changed the TOS to buy them an additional year and refused all accounting of where the money was spent, despite the original TOS stating the contrary.

you have charts literally on their site with funding.
6,5 in last 4 months, not counting big months earlier which had 3,5 every month.

This month they are already at 4,5mln (lol) alone and it is just 19 today. By end of this month they will get something like 6-8mln creating best month in therms of funding from all SC monthly funding. Due to SC con and SQ42 unveil

Don't know anything about TOS. Care to give source for that ?

edit:

Also they stopped streatchgoals at 65mln. They can pocket all money above that if they want.

 

[JamesDixon]

Link

 

[Thane Solus]

But what if the site counter is fake, and those are not the real numbers, just like WoW subscribers being inflated in the last 8 years....

Why you guys believe everything others told you when you have no proof... of the shit they are saying.

 

[ArchAngel]

Wow, people are really paying thousands of dollars to get them? But well, if you can get them ingame as well I don't mind whales.

It is more p2w than that. The ships they buy, they get insurance for them. If the ship they pilot gets blown up and they cannot buy a new one they get the one they paid real money for and skip through grinding. Also can beat people with weaker ships from day 1.
People who lose their ship and don't have money get a starting ship and have to start all over.

Imagine like playing WoW on full PvP server and if you paid 1000$ you start at lvl 50 and can go kill those lvl 1 scrubs and each time you die you respawn as level 50 guy.

 

[Perkel]

Link

What i am looking at ?
EULA only says they will provide their books when they will fail to deliver and only then

also your "charts"

mothly (without 09)

and weekly

 

[Drax]

 

[Morkar Left]

I'm sure I was hearing the same podcast (with Heinrich Lehnhardt at spieleveteranen podcast) and it wasn't as extreme as stated here. But it's true that there were some anecdotes which basically confirm that the danger of feature creep is real with Roberts.

I guess they have their tech together to provide the squadron 42 game. If that's a success (which I assume) they will earn enough money to get Star Citizen out of the door as well (later). And from there I see SC going places with the kind of marketing work they are doing.

EDIT: What's up with the normal quoting?

 

[:Flash:]

I'm sure I was hearing the same podcast (with Heinrich Lehnhardt at spieleveteranen podcast) and it wasn't as extreme as stated here. But it's true that there were some anecdotes which basically confirm that the danger of feature creep is real with Roberts.

Well, if you read between the lines, he basically admits that he thinks it's impossible.
The thing is, Teut Weidemann is no stranger to this phenomenon himself. He bankrupted his own company (Wings Simulations) with the over-ambitions Söldner: Secret Wars.

 

[J_C]

Stop this shit about Chris's vision not being possible. There is nothing in Star Citizen which is not possible. Space action simulation is a given, since it was done dozens of time. Space action with planet landing and travelling around? Done by Elite. Space simulations with FPS tie in. Done by Eve Online X Dust 514. Technically it is not that difficult for experienced devs.

It is just not possible to do it simultaniously, with the kind is mismanagement CIG is having. If they would have went the Braben route, releasing it add on by add on, it would be easily achievable.

 

[Morkar Left]

:Flash:
My impression was that he believes that it's unlikely but not impossible.

And my personal guess is that people on the project are actually less paid than American industry standard hence some ex-employees bitching about roberts salary. Probably a lot of young ones and people are making a game basically nobody has done before in this age.

Roberts has a pretty successful marketing but I guess it comes at a fraction of what Ubisofts premier line is used to.

Look at Elite: Dangerous. Frontier has to make the game with a lot less money and technically they aren't as different in eyecandy and all. Roberts is more ambitious and money consuming with multicrew ships right from the start and a sophisticated fps part. Plus he emphasizes more on individual unique scenes. The biggest budget is probably for the movies. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible with such a budget to develop the game (in stages).

EDIT:

It is just not possible to do it simultaniously, with the kind is mismanagement CIG is having. If they would have went the Braben route, releasing it add on by add on, it would be easily achievable.

That's what they already doing. They just do it in modules which aren't connected but you can walk around in your hangar, do training missions and dogfights and heaving different ship models as well. Furthermore they have already a fanzine running (for a 10$ subscription) with lore content and the like.

You can argue that Elite is the better deal here (which it is) but it's not that there isn't already content available. Right now it's like Elite Dangerous in early beta-stage with the dogfighting.
When/If Squadron 42 comes out I guess it's already a better deal than Elite for the money with around 60$ for a full Wing Commander Sequel and a Privateer game on top later on.

 

[:Flash:]

:Flash:
My impression was that he believes that it's unlikely but not impossible.

Yes, you are right. I originally wanted to write "all but impossible".

Roberts has a pretty successful marketing but I guess it comes at a fraction of what Ubisofts premier line is used to.

Teut Weidemann explicitly says that the 250 million budget for the titles he worked on (Assins Creed whatever, ...) are without any marketing costs, which elevated them to 400+ million.

Look at Elite: Dangerous. Frontier has to make the game with a lot less money and technically they aren't as different in eyecandy and all. Roberts is more ambitious and money consuming with multicrew ships right from the start and a sophisticated fps part. Plus he emphasizes more on individual unique scenes. The biggest budget is probably for the movies. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible with such a budget to develop the game (in stages).

Well, you are just like these journalists in the podcast. "Let's ask an expert." Expert says "I don't believe it, all the less ambitious games I know of cost more". Journalists / Morkar put finger in ear and say "Nanana, didn't hear you, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible."

 

[J_C]

:Flash:
My impression was that he believes that it's unlikely but not impossible.

And my personal guess is that people on the project are actually less paid than American industry standard hence some ex-employees bitching about roberts salary. Probably a lot of young ones and people are making a game basically nobody has done before in this age.

Roberts has a pretty successful marketing but I guess it comes at a fraction of what Ubisofts premier line is used to.

Look at Elite: Dangerous. Frontier has to make the game with a lot less money and technically they aren't as different in eyecandy and all. Roberts is more ambitious and money consuming with multicrew ships right from the start and a sophisticated fps part. Plus he emphasizes more on individual unique scenes. The biggest budget is probably for the movies. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible with such a budget to develop the game (in stages).

EDIT:


That's what they already doing. They just do it in modules which aren't connected but you can walk around in your hangar, do training missions and dogfights and heaving different ship models as well. Furthermore they have already a fanzine running (for a 10$ subscription) with lore content and the like.

You can argue that Elite is the better deal here (which it is) but it's not that there isn't already content available. Right now it's like Elite Dangerous in early beta-stage with the dogfighting.
When/If Squadron 42 comes out I guess it's already a better deal than Elite for the money with around 60$ for a full Wing Commander Sequel and a Privateer game on top later on.

I know they are doing modules seperately, but I think they should focus on one modul alone, build it to its fullest, release it, and then move on to the next one. Because right now with 4-5 modules all of them barebones. If they wait until all of the modules are in place and working together, it will take a lot more time.

As for SQ42, isn't that supposed to come out in episodes? So they can't even finish that one before releasing it.

 

[Perkel]

I know they are doing modules seperately, but I think they should focus on one modul alone, build it to its fullest, release it, and then move on to the next one. Because right now with 4-5 modules all of them barebones. If they wait until all of the modules are in place and working together, it will take a lot more time.

As for SQ42, isn't that supposed to come out in episodes? So they can't even finish that one before releasing it.

Recently they joined all branches social, persistent universe, fps and flying ship and we could see that in their stage demo. From now on, they basically working on content and there are no longer "modules". Public alpha still uses them but soon will be updated with small persistent universe to fly in (and will work as test for their tech)

They planned episodic release for SQ42 but they scratched that idea and went for full campaign delivered in 2016 (probably late 2016).

As of "barebones". They are developing game. Polish things so that could be released for general public eats dev time and since game is in dev those things could change so that polished release for example could be thrown away.
In other words releasing more content (in public ready version) is counter productive to developement of game itself.
They use/d those modules mainly to test stuff like netcode, gameplay etc.

As for why it took them so long. They basically are doing 2 games at the same time. SQ42 and persistant universe will be essentially same thing tech wise so they need all their tech working properly for single player based campaign and their offline/online world