Settings and their lack of differentiation

[Infinitron]

Horse riding! There's a core gameplay design challenge for you. Design an isometric RPG where horses actually exist.

 

[V_K]

Haven't Sacred already done that?

*in b4 not-an-RPG strawman

 

[mondblut]

You can throw dynamite

makes very poor grenades, due to long and unpredictable time of fuse burning.

there were machineguns in the wild west (gatling guns)

static. light MGs did not exist yet.

sniper riffles

very basic ones. forget about 10x scopes, it's only going to be "a rifle that shoots a bit farther and somewhat more accurately than others".

all the mystical bullshit you want to add to the game.

Now you are talking. Mystical bullshit. Also known as "fantasy"

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

makes very poor grenades, due to long and unpredictable time of fuse burning.



static. light MGs did not exist yet.



very basic ones. forget about 10x scopes, it's only going to be "a rifle that shoots a bit farther and somewhat more accurately than others".



Now you are talking. Mystical bullshit. Also known as "fantasy"

You are aware that you don't have to make this game 100% realistic. If PRGs were realistic simulation of medieval skirmishes they'd suck as well. In fact even Jagged Alliance would suck if it was 100% realistic. So all the remarks about how dynamite would suck in real life aren't really useful in this discussion. Mystical bullshit doesn't necessarily mean elves throwing fireballs. I meant all the shit that didn't exist in real life at the time. Prayers, weird shamanistic substances, weird science etc. Just because something is not real doesn't mean it's fantasy. Horror and science fiction also exist.

 

[Serus]

How the fuck did the thread about (presumably very desirable) setting diversity devolve into a discussion of a single type of setting, and a very uninspired one at that?

I think Mondblut happened...

 

[V_K]

What could really be fun is a Biopunk setting. Something like a cross between Geneforge (but without magic and with more imaginative creatures) and Evolva (but with proper RPG systems).

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

To those of you bringing out that same old argument of "what would be there to do without fantasy elements", I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction. Fantasy (and similar post-apoc/sci-fi stuff) elements aren't something that enriches games, they are a crutch that robs them of depth and true creativity. By giving developers easy on-demand props to color their world (dragons, fireballs, orcs, etc), it frees them from the responsibility to come up with interesting things, such as complex human interactions, political intrigue, and other constructs of that nature.

Nowhere is this principle more evident than in fantasy literature. The guy who established the genre, Tolkien, wrote pretty low key fantasy, with lots of mythology, history, linguistics and human conflict. But things like magic were relatively rare. There were like what, 5 wizards in the entire Middle Earth, and they were lower deities/angels, and even they, including Gandalf, often fought with regular weapons, only occasionaly using magic. Most magic was of the enchanting type, like Sauron using ancient elf magic to enchant the rings of power, which has more to do with psychology almost than everyone running around hurling fireballs.

The greatest fantasy writer of all time, George R.R. Martin, took this even further, as magic in his world serves mostly as the background against which his characters engage in typical human endeavors such as intrigue, romance, competition. In the process, he simultaneously marginalized fantasy elements and created the greatest body of work in the genre. Coincidence or logical outcome?

By not having the crutch of evil wizard/demon prince/orc king domination plot, RPG writers would have to come up with actual interesting stories, of which there are so very few in the genre. By not having the crutch of fireballs and longswords +3 and enchanted plate mail of reflect, RPG designers would have to come up with mechanically interesting combat systems. By not having the crutch of dungeon #4390348 with MacGuffin #38344738, RPG level designers would have to actually come up with interesting reasons for players to explore the world. You get the idea.

 

[Prime Junta]

Horse riding! There's a core gameplay design challenge for you. Design an isometric RPG where horses actually exist.

Wyvern Crown of Cormyr did. They worked well enough. (OK so it was 3D isometric, but still.)

 

[Mastermind]

Retards who want a wild west rpg are the type of disgusting storyfags who should stick to reading books and never be allowed touch another computer again.

 

[Mastermind]

To those of you bringing out that same old argument of "what would be there to do without fantasy elements", I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction. Fantasy (and similar post-apoc/sci-fi stuff) elements aren't something that enriches games, they are a crutch that robs them of depth and true creativity. By giving developers easy on-demand props to color their world (dragons, fireballs, orcs, etc), it frees them from the responsibility to come up with interesting things, such as complex human interactions, political intrigue, and other constructs of that nature.

What the fuck does designing fireballs have to do with how you set up the story and human interactions? What you would get in practice is shitty interaction/intruge on top of gameplay that has no chance of being anything other than simple and boring.

The greatest fantasy writer of all time, George R.R. Martin

This post suddenly makes sense.

 

[Carrion]

Minus grenades, RPGs, mortars, tear and mustard gas, burst fire, long range scoped shooting, machineguns, silencers and night vision, body armor... In other words, it could play out like fucking JA2 in Omerta. Very excitement, much fun, wow.

Gangrelrumbler already brought up a few good points, and Desperados already had TNT, gas bombs (sort of), gatling guns, scoped weapons, silent weapons such as throwing knives and a ton of other stuff that worked well in that specific setting. Sure, you could argue that a Wild West setting can't have a sniper rifle that's the equivalent on the top-tier stuff of JA2, or that dynamite is inferior to grenades, but even the JA2 weapons are underpowered compared to their real-life counterparts in terms of range and damage. There are also other factors that could be useful in the setting, like using fire not only as a light source but also to set fire to all those wooden structures.

Anyway, the point is that you can have combat with plenty of tactical options in that setting, something more interesting than two guys standing around and shooting each other until the other is dead. It isn't really even an argument for a Wild West setting (I think there are a ton of more interesting settings to choose from, to be honest) but rather against the general idea that you always need to have spells and shit in your combat system.

"pre-modern realism" means this fun part does not exist by definition. You are stuck with pistols and rusty knives against mooks with pistols and rusty knives for the entire duration of the game. The most you can hope for is a non-rusty knife, or a pistol that shoots one cell further. Why would anyone willingly endure such crap?

An RPG with a low power curve that doesn't drown you in game-breaking items later on? Sounds fucking great.

 

[Neanderthal]

What you would get in practice is shitty interaction/intruge on top of gameplay that has no chance of being anything other than simple and boring.

So most modern RPGs? Ha, sorry couldn't help it.

Anyway since you lot really got a raging hate boner on for even idea of Wild West i'm gonna suggest Wild East: What about a look at the Far East from the perspective of a Mongol? Include distinctive fantasy elements of the Chinese and Mongols, set a unique aesthetic with art, architecture and fashions, make it a brutally unforgiving game as befits the sons of the Steppes with just day to day survival being a challenge. I'm thinking that it could be a lonely windswept saga, perhaps wth just a single player designed character and of course his steed, where civilisation is far away, weak and decadent while we remain on the trail and the quest, hard and proud.

Stick some of that great strange music in, a UI designed around that art they have, all flowing lines and stuff, melee, archery and perhaps alchemy (gunpowder and shit) as skills to specialise in along with a host of others and I think you could make a really distinctive setting.

 

[Gord]

Hm, both Infinitron and mondblut seem strangely limited by an obvious lack of imagination and self-imposed restrictions regarding RPGs in non-fantasy settings.

The basic combat scenario is the shootout

The basic combat scenario could be whatever the dev wants it to be. There was more than duelling at high noon even in the Wild West.
And regarding realism-arguments: how many game are actually realistic? Every game abstracts, don't see why different settings (and Wild West in particular) shouldn't follow similar abstractions as other games.

Combat in a Western RPG could play out like fucking JA2 if you wanted it to

Exactly. Which is even more true for the other proposed settings ITT.

Minus grenades, RPGs, mortars, tear and mustard gas, burst fire, long range scoped shooting, machineguns, silencers and night vision, body armor... In other words, it could play out like fucking JA2 in Omerta. Very excitement, much fun, wow.

Aside from the possibility that a good part of that stuff would be available even in a bog-standard Wild West setting in one form or the other - for the stuff that's not: who cares? As if any of those things are ever modelled even remotely realistically in other crpgs. Ever played one where a sniper rifle is used over distances of 1-2 km instead of the usual 20-100m? Despite its high-powered 10x scope? What would then be the difference to a 1870s rifle?
Every cRPG combat system out there is a highly abstracted thing and a transfer to a different setting within that premise of necessary abstraction can ensure all the complexity and options you have in fantasy or settings of comparatively higher technology.

Of course, if you go into an cRPG with the simplistic idea that combat is the only important part of it, all setting-related stuff is mere flavour and different settings probably don't hold any special interest to you anyway.

How the fuck did the thread about (presumably very desirable) setting diversity devolve into a discussion of a single type of setting, and a very uninspired one at that?

While I don't think a (good) Wild West game would be uninspired, you are right that we should talk about other settings as well.

 

[prodigydancer]

To make a nice history-based setting you actually need to know the historic period it's based on pretty damn well. So it's all about entry barriers. Fantasy means you don't need to know shit. Any illiterate dumbfuck can come up with a generic fantasy setting and even if someone points out something that is completely implausible or even outright wrong he can always say "because magic" and continue to shovel in made-up garbage till it spills over.

Creating a generic fantasy setting in this day and age is the ultimate cop out: you could as well skip the whole thing and tell your players it's like Middle-earth/FR but with some trash additions you're personally responsible for.

 

[Infinitron]

Interestingly both Infinitron and mondblut seem strangely limited by an obvious lack of imagination and self-imposed restrictions regarding RPGs in non-fantasy settings.

Hey, I'm the one who came up with the outline of a combat system that actually evokes the Wild West. All you're telling me is that you could use some kind of one-size-fits-all GURPS-type thing and create AWESOME CONTENT around it. Well, duh.

 

[Mastermind]

So most modern RPGs? Ha, sorry couldn't help it.

Anyway since you lot really got a raging hate boner on for even idea of Wild West i'm gonna suggest Wild East: What about a look at the Far East from the perspective of a Mongol? Include distinctive fantasy elements of the Chinese and Mongols, set a unique aesthetic with art, architecture and fashions, make it a brutally unforgiving game as befits the sons of the Steppes with just day to day survival being a challenge. I'm thinking that it could be a lonely windswept saga, perhaps wth just a single player designed character and of course his steed, where civilisation is far away, weak and decadent while we remain on the trail and the quest, hard and proud.

Stick some of that great strange music in, a UI designed around that art they have, all flowing lines and stuff, melee, archery and perhaps alchemy (gunpowder and shit) as skills to specialise in along with a host of others and I think you could make a really distinctive setting.

That would just be a variation of fantasy (if it's gonna be TB I want a party though, I think a party based asian fantasy rpg where you meet a bunch of people with weird and unique powers would be great). Anyway, I don't know anybody who actively opposes making RPGs in something other than traditional western fantasy settings. Even someone like me who would have no problem with every future RPG being set in western fantasy would play it. I'd also settle for regular fantasy done right (which it almost never is anymore). I'd love to play another RPG in the older M&M setting or one in the Warlords setting since they were both crafted by people who love fantasy rather than the accounting and marketing departments like the average rpg today.

 

[Gord]

Hey, I'm the one who came up with the outline of a combat system that actually evokes the Wild West. All you're telling me is that you could use some kind of one-size-fits-all GURPS-type thing and create AWESOME CONTENT around it. Well, duh.

No, I'm saying that within the setting the combat could be more than just that (and before that also how it would similarly offer plenty non-combat options).
We could have what you are proposing (although I wouldn't do it fps-style in a RPG), but using a half-decent combat system, you could have other scenarios as well.
You just seem to say that the setting is boring because it's too limiting due to what it could offer, but then actually only try to use a small fraction of the possible scenarios. Well, no wonder it sounds boring to you.

Anyway, a Wild West setting is not particularly important to me (not more than other, different, settings), I just want to convey that it is absolutely possible to provide complex and interesting options or interactions in a variety of non-standard settings even without the excuse of MAGIC! or SCIENCE!.

 

[Mustawd]

Why is everyone assuming realistic settings can't also be fantastical? I mean isn't steampunk basically a fantastical victorian/industrial revolution setting?

 

[Mastermind]

Why is everyone assuming realistic settings can't also be fantastical?

Because realistic is used to denote an actual historical setting and there were no clockwork soldiers in real life.

 

[hivemind]

I like settings like AoD and The Witcher where there are fantastical elements but the core human interactions of the world are based on actual human nature and 'realistic' and where the fantastical elements are still subject to logic.

Basically what makes or breaks 'realism' in a setting for me is not the presence of fireballs bur rather if the consequence of fireballs being present is explored sensibly.

 

[Mustawd]

I like settings like AoD and The Witcher where there are fantastical elements but the core human interactions of the world are based on actual human nature and 'realistic' and where the fantastical elements are still subject to logic.

Basically what makes or breaks 'realism' in a setting for me is not the presence of fireballs bur rather if the consequence of fireballs being present is explored sensibly.

Precisely. Take something like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. The book was published in 1823. There's nothing that says that an 1823 setting couldn't have fantastical elements like Frankenstein in them. You just have to be careful to not go full retard with it as to make it atmosphere-breaking.

EDIT: Really, the main issue with these type of settings is that they're somewhat tied to our expectations of them and what was possible historically. So there's only so much "stretch" a historical setting can take before it becomes fantasy or just plain dumb. Something like King's Dark Tower novels is what I'm thinking of.

 

[Haraldur]

I have, for a while, daydreamed about an undersea fantasy world as an RPG setting: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...a-creatures-so-ugly.93923/page-6#post-4072197

Characters would be octopodes and squid and the like, with rogue-like characters using the adaptive camouflage these creatures have. There would be weird deep-sea areas, slightly-less-weird coral sea areas, coastal zones (continental shelf) and the blue desert of the open ocean, with geopolitical tensions derived from the nature of the habitats -- what would happen if the surfacers tried to harvest the marine snow that would otherwise descend to feed the deep-sea dwellers? Perhaps, given that male octopodes and squid tend to die after mating, and females die after offspring hatch, a sexual revolution in a previously very conservative society would lead to a social collapse, a soft apocalypse, like the fall of the Roman Empire, with kelps overgrowing many areas?

Other inspiration could be found from programmes like the BBC's The Blue Planet with David Attenborough.

In order to maintain verisimilitude, combat would need to take place in three dimensions. A real-time game could use Homeworld-style controls, while a turn-based one would have a Homeworld-TOEE hybrid. Magic spells would have 3D areas of effect, perhaps affected by proximity to the surface or by the shape of the seabed (if nearby). There might also be explosive weapons with shaped charges, to make the battle system more interesting. If the game was a Homeworld clone, the mothership could be replaced with a giant sponge -- real sponges tend to have other animals living within.

The requirement for 3D graphics, and the relative complexity of the battle system, means that such a game would not, likely, be cheap.

 

[Wizfall]

One kind of setting that is underused in cRPG is space opera like in Hard nova.
Imagine Fallout 1/2 structure : towns are space stations or planets, RNPC can be aliens, you travel in your spaceship that you can customize.
Great rooms for exploration, mysteries and all kind of things and you can make the setting "soft" or "hard" sci-fi.
I can only think of Mass Effect doing this kind of setting but it's not TB (and you don't have space combat i believe, i never played it).
The only difficulty i see is you have to create two combat systems (space combat and ground combat), on the other hand that means more useful skills and choice when selecting your crew.

 

[Saduj]

Since you mention the term "differentiation", let's talk about the advantage of fantasy - it supports a wide differentiation of character types.

A lot of the "wouldn't it be cool if we had an RPG in..." suggestions begin to seem like experimental gimmicks when you actually think about them for more than a minute, because they're systemically limited from the outset. What sort of characters could you build in a Wild West RPG?

Duelist, Sharpshooter, Scout/Survivalist, Grifter/Gambler, Native, Dragoon, Trapper, etc, etc, etc.

There are all sorts of archetypes for that setting. Not sure what you're talking about.

Edit: A Trapper or Mountain Man is pretty much the same thing as Scout/Survivalist but the point is there is plenty of meat on that bone.

 

[Mustawd]

Duelist, Sharpshooter, Scout/Survivalist, Grifter/Gambler, Native, Dragoon, Trapper, etc, etc, etc.

There are all sorts of archetypes for that setting. Not sure what you're talking about.

Not to mention that the structure of the wild west frontier, vast open land broken up by a few towns and settlements, is very similar to the town/wilderness structure of normal fantasy RPGs.