Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Bahamut]

It's been said repeatedly it's because Bethesda wanted more detailed/larger cities and the engine couldn't handle them (or maybe more specifically, that many NPCs with full AI) in the regular outdoor areas on the Xbox. Instead they had to cut them up into smaller interior levels, which meant levitation had to go, otherwise it'd reveal that the cities on the overworld are all empty and full of low-poly props.

And still it seems the cities are even smaler than oblivion ones, solitude was literaly a capital joke

 

[Carrion]

• Athletics: Movement speed shouldn't be a skill/trait in a first person based RPG. Only led to more tedious travel.

Movement speed is pretty vital in combat, or when sneaking, or when trying to run away from someone, or when trying to take out a group of bandits with a bow without getting surrounded and smashed into tiny little bits. It's probably one of the first stats I'd include in a first-person RPG as it allows you to have a lot diversity between different character builds.

• Blunt/Blade: Weapon distinctions made more sense with Morrowind's combat but not so much with Oblivion/Skyrim.

And what exactly about Oblivion's combat makes such distinction unnecessary? I don't really mind Skyrim's One-handed/Two-handed thing, but I'd take Morrowind's weapon skills over it any day.

• Hand-to-Hand: Pointless unless you want to E-LARP a monk.

It allows you to take down people non-lethally, so potentially it could be very useful. I think the main flaw of the skill is that there are so few instances where you'd need to be non-lethal. I can remember only one quest from Morrowind off the top of my head. Ironically Skyrim has the most hand-to-hand fights in all TES games.

• Acrobatics: Same reason as Athletics. Jump height is almost entirely irrelevant in these type of games.

Couldn't disagree more. If anything, in a TES-like open-world game focused on exploration jump height would be especially important as it could give you access to new places and let you find alternative travel routes (like getting over a mountain rather than having to go around it, or escaping city guards via rooftops if you want to get really fancy). And again, it's potentially very useful in combat, although with the current Skyrim AI it'd probably feel more or less like an exploit. Nonetheless, it's definitely in the Water Walking / Levitation category of different types of movement that set awesome characters apart from level 1 weaklings.

• Mercantile: They got rid of speech checks and made nearly all of the Speech tree the new Mercantile. And while they essentially abandoned speech checks in Skyrim the wheel in Oblivion was horrible.

Skyrim does have speech checks, but I don't really mind the merging of these skills. The wheel can burn in hell indeed.

• Mysticism: Semantics. They just moved the spells into other schools of magic.

Too bad that they decided to axe the most interesting school of magic in the game. The non-combat schools are what makes TES magic feel different from most other RPGs out there, but in Skyrim there are only a few useful spells in each school and they're almost all related directly to combat.

One thing that I like about the skill system in Daggerfall, Morrowind and to some extent even Oblivion is that pretty much every single action you can take is governed by a stat. Hit someone with any weapon or no weapon at all, stats affect it. Walk through a room, it's governed by a stat. Talk to someone, your stats affect it. Take a shit in the woods, and RK47 will find you a mod with Shitting and Wiping as separate skills governed by Agility, Speed and Luck, perhaps even including a persuasion check somewhere. It's a really complete system that has immense potential from a simulationist perspective. It's a shame that Bethesda decided to go with a much more bare-bones system in Skyrim that scrapped a lot of this stuff.

 

[RK47]

I don't think I ever promoted the shitting mod for PLAYER character.
Likewise I don't find Realistic Needs nor Cold Temperature mods fun in Skyrim.
I like Realm of Arkania brand of realism a bit, but after meddling with the realistic mod in Skyrim I found it a chore to manage 2-4 bars of cold, hunger, thirst, and bowels.

Where's the fun?
There isn't even much thought to it than 'eat when told to eat' 'drink when told to drink' 'shit when told to shit' 'urinate when told to urinate'
This isn't exactly a fun thing to simulate and so is running forever to improve running. And jumping to improve jumping. It didnt feel like it added much except 'another XP bar to fill'

 

[RK47]

Ironically Skyrim has the most hand-to-hand fights in all TES games.

This attack becomes very useful when you have a mod installed that needs a Low % HP of the opponent to trigger the script.
And yes, I think it should be another 'secondary' skill so people who fists a lot should unlock its own internal perk. No level ups will be gained and no perk points needs to be spent. A linear upgrade if you will. Cause I can think of nothing cooler than a 75% Unarmed skill stopping a blade in mid-swing and disarming it in slow-mo.

My problem with Crafting Skills in Skyrim is this: It's too easy to raise and doesn't seem to fit into the 'your character has gained experience - pick any perk you want' mold.

If every crafting skills just advance as per normal (crafting high end stuff gives more skill gains, does not affect Char Level), gaining its own internal perk points and specialization - I would be happier. Specialization still exists. You will not have enough Smithing perks to get everything unlocked. Choose between two type of weapons + Light / Heavy Armor specialization. That's all I ask.

 

[DraQ]

(anyway, even in Morrowind attributes were just a function of skills).

Sorry, but no, you're being retarded here.

Yes, attributes in Oblivion were already spurious (because agility was marksman 2 and so on), but in Morrowind they served an important function.

First, attributes in general are broader than skills, for example agility affects all tasks requiring physical nimbleness, not just, for example, hitting with long blades.
Meanwhile perks are narrower than skills. Attributes are what forms rough outline of your character and what makes your character predisposed for particular collections of skills.
Without attributes character behaviour is hard to make consistent, for example without intelligence you can't tell the character that he needs to be smart to effectively learn and use particular skills.

Second, attributes served purposes separate from those of skills - for example agility governed how well you kept your balance and thus how hard you were to knock to the ground (enchant a warhammer with drain agility in MW and have fun), willpower governed your resistance to certain spells and so on.

Skyrim just cut out useless/superfluous shit

Go smoke a dick.

Athletics: Movement speed shouldn't be a skill/trait in a first person based RPG. Only led to more tedious travel.

Again, wrong. Sustainable movement speed should be independent of build, but sprinting/running depending on build are good as they allow builds emphasizing mobility in combat. And mobility is one of the few sensible reasons for not encasing yourself in a daedric tincan - other than that light armours are larpfaggotry.

Blunt/Blade: Weapon distinctions made more sense with Morrowind's combat but not so much with Oblivion/Skyrim.

Actually, Skyrim's system is orthogonal to Morrowind's. Morrowind emphasized weapon type. Skyrim emphasized weapon grip. It would be best to have both, but other than that Morrowind's system is better because it plays nicer with other skills - for example in Skyrim specializing in 2h makes specialization in shields questionable at best - just add some 1h spears and light 1h crossbows and we're set.

Hand-to-Hand: Pointless unless you want to E-LARP a monk.

And that's different from E-LARPING a knight, a wizard or a motherfucking Garret how?

Acrobatics: Same reason as Athletics. Jump height is almost entirely irrelevant in these type of games.

And just as wrong as the reason stated for athletics. Jumping is great in games that have a lot of diverse terrain and z-axis you can exploit in combat or when getting into position. It shouldn't be a skill (because of bunnyhopping to level up), but it should depend on an attribute and encumbrance.

Mercantile: They got rid of speech checks and made nearly all of the Speech tree the new Mercantile. And while they essentially abandoned speech checks in Skyrim the wheel in Oblivion was horrible.

There are speech checks in Skyrim and arbitrary skill checks can be implemented in dialogue as well. Actually I don't care that much about this merger.

Mysticism: Semantics. They just moved the spells into other schools of magic.

Except many of the changes don't make sense. Hell, some new spells don't make sense without mysticism - see clairvoyance.

With the same pickaxes they used to make holes into it and build cells inside. Just keep whacking it until it turns into a floating pile of dust.

Actually, structural integrity makes little difference if something hits you at such velocity. It doesn't matter if it's solid rock or a pile of fine dust, it still packs megatons of blam.

Actually breaking it up might be viable tactics, but you'd have to be very careful disposing of the material, as regardless where you'd put it it would be doomed to kablam by impacting its resting place. I don't think Dunmer would have the means to move all the mass of the entire Lie Rock somewhere where it would do no harm (and no, the sea doesn't count, neither does Red Mountain), unless they tricked Mehrunes Dagon that he could build sand castles out of it in Oblivion (he might actually be delighted by the surprise, because MD loves shit blowing up).

Like with waterwalking and levitation, it helps you get to safer areas and evade enemies. The real problem is that you're the only person in the world capable of that.

Actually, I had Itermerel levitate on me in Morrowind, and that Ahemmusa wise woman can waterwalk.
Plus, it's not really up to devs to devise all possible uses of stuff the implement, for example in Morrowind, if you had waterbreathing you could cast waterwalk on enemy, hide in the water and spear him through the nuts from below.

It's been said repeatedly it's because Bethesda wanted more detailed/larger cities and the engine couldn't handle them (or maybe more specifically, that many NPCs with full AI) in the regular outdoor areas on the Xbox. Instead they had to cut them up into smaller interior levels, which meant levitation had to go, otherwise it'd reveal that the cities on the overworld are all empty and full of low-poly props.

And still it seems the cities are even smaler than oblivion ones, solitude was literaly a capital joke

I think that in an already scaled down world scale matters less than the impression of scale and Skyrim's cities definitely feel bigger.

It's mostly just a cheap parlor trick - Skyrim 'big' cities like Solitude or Whiterun are pretty elongated, with palace on the opposite end than entrance.
Our minds are generally accustomed to thinking of cities in terms of roundish blobs with most important places in the centre so the entire length of a thin, long city feels like a radius of much bigger blob city.
Oblivion's cities were already blobs, with similar area, so they felt much much smaller.

Then again, Morrowind's distances relied on similar trick when game forced you to zigzag and walk in circles around impassable landscape to weave the illusion of scale.

 

[sea]

There's no reason why they couldn't have put a loading screen transitioning you into the city when you walk into the area via levitation. It's like Metro said, laziness. A lot of Morrowind dungeons actually had some verticality to them and some interesting secrets to be found, but BSB level design is easier than putting in effort. Thus why the majority of Skyrim dungeons are linear roller coaster rides.

Oh I agree that it's laziness, just that they at least have a reason to justify it.

 

[Metro]

Movement speed is pretty vital in combat, or when sneaking, or when trying to run away from someone, or when trying to take out a group of bandits with a bow without getting surrounded and smashed into tiny little bits. It's probably one of the first stats I'd include in a first-person RPG as it allows you to have a lot diversity between different character builds.

It's fine to base it off of other skills like sneak proficiency or whether or not you're wearing heavy armor but as it's own skill? Sorry, no. And it's not vital in combat. Not in TES combat at least.

And what exactly about Oblivion's combat makes such distinction unnecessary? I don't really mind Skyrim's One-handed/Two-handed thing, but I'd take Morrowind's weapon skills over it any day.

Because it's just derpy hack and slash with occasional blocking.

It allows you to take down people non-lethally, so potentially it could be very useful. I think the main flaw of the skill is that there are so few instances where you'd need to be non-lethal.

You answered your own argument. In modern TES games it's superfluous/useless given the content design.

Couldn't disagree more. If anything, in a TES-like open-world game focused on exploration jump height would be especially important as it could give you access to new places and let you find alternative travel routes (like getting over a mountain rather than having to go around it, or escaping city guards via rooftops if you want to get really fancy).

Well, then you'd be wrong. Especially given recent TES game shitty open world design. There are very few places where being able to jump 30% higher would make a difference. They etch out pretty clear paths and where they don't want people to go they usually just put sheer mountain cliffs.

And again, it's potentially very useful in combat, although with the current Skyrim AI it'd probably feel more or less like an exploit. Nonetheless, it's definitely in the Water Walking / Levitation category of different types of movement that set awesome characters apart from level 1 weaklings.

Useful in combat? Baloney. Do you find yourself jumping around a lot in Oblivion/Skyrim combat? I sure don't.

Skyrim does have speech checks, but I don't really mind the merging of these skills. The wheel can burn in hell indeed.

It has maybe... a dozen? Probably less if you throw out the ones in the generic radiant quests. And I'm almost certain all of them -- like I mentioned -- can be bypassed with a bribe.

Too bad that they decided to axe the most interesting school of magic in the game. The non-combat schools are what makes TES magic feel different from most other RPGs out there, but in Skyrim there are only a few useful spells in each school and they're almost all related directly to combat.

What's so interesting about Detect Life, Dispel, Soul Trap, Reflect, and Spell absorb? Telekinesis, okay, sure. But, like I said they just moved most of them to other categories. Didn't really make a difference.

Skyrim that scrapped a lot of this stuff.

I'm fairly certain most actions in Skyrim are covered by some kind of stat check or at least influenced by your skill level in the various proficiencies. The higher your sneak, the easier it is to go undetected, higher your 1H the harder you hit with them, higher your archery the harder you hit with bows, etc. Anyway, keep my answer in perspective. I was responding to the momo who claimed Oblivion was better than Skyrim and provided as evidence the fact that they ditched attributes and skills. Reality is, none of those mattered in Oblivion given the massive changes they made post Morrowind.

Not going to respond to Draq point-by-point because I've basically already covered it. You guys are reaching at straws -- especially regarding mobility in combat with athletics/acrobatics as if Oblivion and Skyrim were akin to Dark Souls. And no, mods do not count nor does playing the game on some heavily modded difficulty or adds things that varies combat. We're talking about the changes from vanilla Oblivion to vanilla Skyrim (which even on its hardest difficulty is still not particularly challenging).

 

[Carrion]

It's fine to base it off of other skills like sneak proficiency or whether or not you're wearing heavy armor but as it's own skill? Sorry, no. And it's not vital in combat. Not in TES combat at least.

If you're armed with a sword and someone's casting a spell or aiming a bow at you, surely it makes a difference how fast you can run up to him? When fighting multiple enemies, surely being fast makes it easier to avoid getting flanked? When you run into a fucking huge Dwemer construct, surely it makes a difference whether you can move faster than it or not? And so on. Similarly enemies that move at different speeds can create more interesting encounters than ones that always move at the same speed.

I agree that movement speed shouldn't be a skill. Instead it should just be based on your attributes.

Well, then you'd be wrong. Especially given recent TES game shitty open world design. There are very few places where being able to jump 30% higher would make a difference. They etch out pretty clear paths and where they don't want people to go they usually just put sheer mountain cliffs.

It's not really surprising that a game where everyone can jump just as high as everyone else is designed with that notion in mind. Jumping definitely was useful in Morrowind, maybe less so in Oblivion, but high Acrobatics still allowed you to fall from higher without dying, attack when jumping of falling, jump to otherwise unreachable places, dodge your enemies in combat and, uh... jump off the surface of water, off the top of my head.

Also, your original point was about "these kinds of games", not just TES.

Useful in combat? Baloney. Do you find yourself jumping around a lot in Oblivion/Skyrim combat? I sure don't.

There are instances where it's really useful to jump on a ledge or a rock and get the higher ground when in combat. Of course, the AI can't cope with this at all in most cases. And like I said, Acrobatics gives you some special combat skills in Oblivion, so it's a useful skill in combat as well.

What's so interesting about Detect Life, Dispel, Soul Trap, Reflect, and Spell absorb? Telekinesis, okay, sure. But, like I said they just moved most of them to other categories. Didn't really make a difference.

Put it this way:

In most games magic is something that kills stuff or prevents you from getting killed, meaning buffs, offensive spells, protections and so on. It doesn't have a lot of uses beyond combat. In Morrowind magic is more about manipulating the laws of nature and forces that are beyond our senses in all kinds of ways, killing creatures being simply one of them. You can be an incredibly powerful mage without ever hurting anyone. Almost all of my most used spells were non-combat spells: Feather, Levitate, Fortify Strength/Speed/etc., Open, Slowfall, Water Breathing, Water Walking, Invisibility, Night Eye, Mark & Recall, Almsivi & Divine Intervention, Charm, Invisibility... Even in combat you could stop your enemies by a thousand different ways without even touching Destruction or Conjuration. Oblivion of course removed a lot of this, but Alteration still remained a really useful school, for example.

Skyrim not only removed Mysticism, but it also homogenized the entire spell system towards combat. Alteration is now mostly about shields, with Paralyze being probably the only other spell that sees a regular use, and even that's obviously a combat spell. There's also Waterbreathing but there's hardly any water to dive in. Illusion has mostly combat spells like Frenzy, Rally and so on. For non-combat stuff you have Invisibility, Muffle and fucking Clairvoyance, and that's about it. After that you're left with Destruction, Conjuration and Restoration, i.e. the most basic stuff you can find in every single game.

The removal of spellmaker doesn't exactly help either.

Anyway, keep my answer in perspective. I was responding to the momo who claimed Oblivion was better than Skyrim and provided as evidence the fact that they ditched attributes and skills. Reality is, none of those mattered in Oblivion given the massive changes they made post Morrowind.

I agree to some extent, but the problem was in the content, not the mechanics. Skyrim is an improvement over Oblivion in many (most) ways, but some of the stuff that was cut was good and should've been kept in and probably improved on rather than being completely removed. DraQ already explained the effects that removing attributes had, so I won't go there.

 

[baturinsky]

In Morrowind magic is more about manipulating the laws of nature and forces that are beyond our senses in all kinds of ways, killing creatures being simply one of them.

Dragonshouts.

 

[Carrion]

Ddragonshouts.

You don't have know anything about magic to be able to use them.

 

[baturinsky]

I see dragonshouts as a separate school of magic.

 

[Xenich]

Skyrim.

Himm... complete garbage. If you look at the loss of skills due to streamlining from Arena up to now, well... Skyrim is just an action exploration movie game. Character development is pointless, non-existent, lacking any intelligence in its pursuit and as some have said, the quest/dialog, etc... is just... well.. it is like trying to say pornographic movies are rich intellectual experiences. This game was a console game, period. It is obvious in every possible way. Skyrim has a major problem though. Because they completely stripped the complexity of the systems out of the game by designing it first and foremost for tardsole, the modding community is extremely limited in what they can do to fix the most damaging problems of the game (its development system). That is, mods can not save this game, it is junk, will always be junk that rates right up there with Dragon Age 2 and Dead Island. There is no hope for it other than for people to fix/create better dialog and quest focuses. The core system just can't be salvaged.

Sad to see a genre of this level not simply fall from grace, but dive into the toilet after a binge at the seedy back alley mexican restaurant. Skyrim is a perfect example of how gaming has been destroyed to cater to a certain crowd that simply wants cheap movie like entertainment.

I believe mods can salvaje this game, it just takes a huge amount of effort to do so, luckly a lot of people are willing to do it.

Vjilia is an example of this. While the companion in itself is not to my taste, it does add a layer of depth to the whole thing and shows what can be done.
Skyre does a very good job at making everything actually somewhat fun and challenging while keeping it fair.

My conclusion is this: Skyrim fully modded has potential to be a filler inbetween actual RPGs. much like oblivion.

You havent seen how bad can player generated content tools get till you try neverwinter online.

Reading the feature list from that mod, it appears to only deal with quests, dialog, music, voice overs, etc... That wasn't my point about the lacking of Skyrim. For the most part, Skyrim was set up already to be accepting of these types of changes to features.

My point is that the entire combat and development system is detached from in-depth character development. The skills have been greatly reduced from the already dwindling and severely normalized Oblivion. Oblivion changed its system from morrowind, as well removing the need for skill development for successful application of skills in most cases. The game became "action/adventure" oriented even then, though because the original system contained many elements of its predecessor, core changes could be added to provide that functionality again.

With Skyrim, such has been stripped away, leaving a very simplistic system to which attempting to insert complexity within it is extremely limited without having the source code to work with.

When oblivion was released, it didn't take long for people to make drastic changes to various combat and character development systems to repair what it was lacking compared to morrowind. Slyrim, being that it is a console designed game from the ground up lacks any ability to achieve those levels of customization. That is why the bulk of what you see in terms of mods for skyrim or UI adjustments for PC, sounds, graphics, and basic quest changes. The combat engine is already streamlined and there is no way to expand it to achieve the complexity of the past games. Nothing exists to achieve that, the system is what it is and you are limited by that.

Even if someone figured out how to create a 3rd party module to add such features, you are talking about trying to swim upstream and the effort would be pointless. It would be easier to enhance Oblivion/Morrowind engines than it would be to work with Skyrims. Like I said, the game is just terrible on all levels of ability. It really is nothing more than a console junk game thrown out there to appeal to a specific audience that wanted an action game in a free roaming world.

 

[Xenich]

If you want to play TES game for combat then play Battlespire, not because combat is much more refined there but its the only TES game thats actually challenging.

Not combat, character development. Character development and combat are closely tied. The previous games were designed around building a character with numerous skills and abilities to which you tailored to your playstyle to overcome various obstacles. It could mean direct combat, stealth approaches, diplomatic approaches in some cases, etc... The Elder Scrolls was never a SIM game for Larpers. It was an RPG with a free open world and complex character development required to excel within it.

The games these days are nothing more than SIMS with simplistic arcade combat. No thought in development, no limitations based on choices, nothing... just run around with neat looking armor and clothing, talk to people and hack and slash your way to glory.

 

[Delterius]

I see dragonshouts as a separate school of magic.

Of course they are, but your character doesn't learn Shouting by virtue of his effort or knowledge. He is the Chosen One.

 

[baturinsky]

I see dragonshouts as a separate school of magic.

Of course they are, but your character doesn't learn Shouting by virtue of his effort or knowledge. He is the Chosen One.

You have to kill a fucking dragon to get your first Shout. And then do quests and/or kill dragons and dragonpriests to get a decent library. Meanwhile, magic can be learned by paying some gold for books and spamming spells in controlled environment.
And shouts are not exclusive to Chosen Ones either. Greybeards, Ulfric and megadraugrs use them too.

 

[baturinsky]

Not combat, character development. Character development and combat are closely tied. The previous games were designed around building a character with numerous skills and abilities to which you tailored to your playstyle to overcome various obstacles.

Except if you play non-mage in Arena, making OP character in any numered TES is trivial. In Morrowind, for example, you can just buy all the skills you want, and money are very easy to get.

 

[Lhynn]

Reading the feature list from that mod, it appears to only deal with quests, dialog, music, voice overs, etc... That wasn't my point about the lacking of Skyrim. For the most part, Skyrim was set up already to be accepting of these types of changes to features.

My point is that the entire combat and development system is detached from in-depth character development. The skills have been greatly reduced from the already dwindling and severely normalized Oblivion. Oblivion changed its system from morrowind, as well removing the need for skill development for successful application of skills in most cases. The game became "action/adventure" oriented even then, though because the original system contained many elements of its predecessor, core changes could be added to provide that functionality again.

With Skyrim, such has been stripped away, leaving a very simplistic system to which attempting to insert complexity within it is extremely limited without having the source code to work with.

When oblivion was released, it didn't take long for people to make drastic changes to various combat and character development systems to repair what it was lacking compared to morrowind. Slyrim, being that it is a console designed game from the ground up lacks any ability to achieve those levels of customization. That is why the bulk of what you see in terms of mods for skyrim or UI adjustments for PC, sounds, graphics, and basic quest changes. The combat engine is already streamlined and there is no way to expand it to achieve the complexity of the past games. Nothing exists to achieve that, the system is what it is and you are limited by that.

Even if someone figured out how to create a 3rd party module to add such features, you are talking about trying to swim upstream and the effort would be pointless. It would be easier to enhance Oblivion/Morrowind engines than it would be to work with Skyrims. Like I said, the game is just terrible on all levels of ability. It really is nothing more than a console junk game thrown out there to appeal to a specific audience that wanted an action game in a free roaming world.

Someone has said it before me, what was lost from oblivion didnt matter (attributes, some spells, etc). Because Oblivions use of that shit was retarded and no one misses it.
What was lost from the jump from morrowind to skyrim is huge, and the reason everyone here says MW is simply better.

Skyre completly overhauls the perk system and everything related to it. With it you can be a necromacer and raise permanent undeads that will fight till they fall, or summon daedra and feel like a satanist, because the specialization is different, the skills are different. Made speech tree useful, given a lot of variety to weapon trees allowing for especialization in different weapons, made light and heavy armor something different that changes the way you fight your enemies. Its a long long list, and its fun.
As for Vjilia mod, it adds a simple, it adds a simple numeric value to measure your relationship, that could have easily been used as a mechanic to measure faction relations is the devs gave a shit. It gives you simple quests but does a good job at keeping track of the stages you are on each with different banter related to it. The npc is aware of were you are in skyrim, or what quest you are currently doing and will make comments about that, stuff that was missing from every TES game was somewhat implemented in this mod, and it really shows how it can be done.

Listen, Walk on water, Levitate, Mark & Recall, Charm and the spellmaker, etc. the only reason we dont have them is because the cunts at beth a) got lazy b) forgot about their pc following and went for the console market.

PS: fast travel is the most idiotic implementation i have ever seen, was bad at oblivion, is worse at skyrim.

 

[Xenich]

Oblivion simply was horrible. Not even mods could successfully salvage the game, unless the mods were total overhauls that scrapped Bethesda's entire game world, such as Nehrim.

Did you ever try the FCOM mods? http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/FCOM

I hated vanilla Oblivion, it was a horrible game in so many ways it would take days to outline them.

That said, it took several years and an enormous amount of effort by modders to at least make it worth playing.

It isn't an easy implementation though. You will really have to spend a lot of time and effort learning all the tools to get it to work right and you need to have a machine powerful enough to run all the programs/loaders as well as the graphic enhancements.

Once I completely customized it and added some other mods for my own specifics, the game was actually enjoyable, not as much as MW was, but still.. it is a respectable game after all those changes.

 

[Xenich]

Reading the feature list from that mod, it appears to only deal with quests, dialog, music, voice overs, etc... That wasn't my point about the lacking of Skyrim. For the most part, Skyrim was set up already to be accepting of these types of changes to features.

My point is that the entire combat and development system is detached from in-depth character development. The skills have been greatly reduced from the already dwindling and severely normalized Oblivion. Oblivion changed its system from morrowind, as well removing the need for skill development for successful application of skills in most cases. The game became "action/adventure" oriented even then, though because the original system contained many elements of its predecessor, core changes could be added to provide that functionality again.

With Skyrim, such has been stripped away, leaving a very simplistic system to which attempting to insert complexity within it is extremely limited without having the source code to work with.

When oblivion was released, it didn't take long for people to make drastic changes to various combat and character development systems to repair what it was lacking compared to morrowind. Slyrim, being that it is a console designed game from the ground up lacks any ability to achieve those levels of customization. That is why the bulk of what you see in terms of mods for skyrim or UI adjustments for PC, sounds, graphics, and basic quest changes. The combat engine is already streamlined and there is no way to expand it to achieve the complexity of the past games. Nothing exists to achieve that, the system is what it is and you are limited by that.

Even if someone figured out how to create a 3rd party module to add such features, you are talking about trying to swim upstream and the effort would be pointless. It would be easier to enhance Oblivion/Morrowind engines than it would be to work with Skyrims. Like I said, the game is just terrible on all levels of ability. It really is nothing more than a console junk game thrown out there to appeal to a specific audience that wanted an action game in a free roaming world.

Someone has said it before me, what was lost from oblivion didnt matter (attributes, some spells, etc). Because Oblivions use of that shit was retarded and no one misses it.
What was lost from the jump from morrowind to skyrim is huge, and the reason everyone here says MW is simply better.

Skyre completly overhauls the perk system and everything related to it. With it you can be a necromacer and raise permanent undeads that will fight till they fall, or summon daedra and feel like a satanist, because the specialization is different, the skills are different. Made speech tree useful, given a lot of variety to weapon trees allowing for especialization in different weapons, made light and heavy armor something different that changes the way you fight your enemies. Its a long long list, and its fun.
As for Vjilia mod, it adds a simple, it adds a simple numeric value to measure your relationship, that could have easily been used as a mechanic to measure faction relations is the devs gave a shit. It gives you simple quests but does a good job at keeping track of the stages you are on each with different banter related to it. The npc is aware of were you are in skyrim, or what quest you are currently doing and will make comments about that, stuff that was missing from every TES game was somewhat implemented in this mod, and it really shows how it can be done.

Listen, Walk on water, Levitate, Mark & Recall, Charm and the spellmaker, etc. the only reason we dont have them is because the cunts at beth a) got lazy b) forgot about their pc following and went for the console market.

PS: fast travel is the most idiotic implementation i have ever seen, was bad at oblivion, is worse at skyrim.

See, most of the people who I have talked to about the loss of skills make arguments that make me cringe. That is, it is almost like I am talking to a tardsoler claiming that a given skill/attribute or requirement is pointless because it gets in the way of their "fun". It is the same stupid arguments they make about fast travel " Why! I play a game for fun and having to walk around all over the place is not fun! I want instant travel!"

I do not like the perk system in Skyrim, it is a poorly implemented rip off system from Fallout. It is obvious why they did it though, it is because they wanted to streamline the engines for both games so there is less development time. The whole "class" system is a clear sign of dumbing down and holding peoples hands. Depth is lost in the system for the sake of MMO trees and template carrots to follow which is at complete odds with the original design and focus of the series.

Like I said, what was once a game open in its development system as it was in exploration has turned into a narrowed path of design carrots all streamlined to provide the most "accessible" game possible. I really can't stand the game, at all.

 

[Delterius]

I see dragonshouts as a separate school of magic.

Of course they are, but your character doesn't learn Shouting by virtue of his effort or knowledge. He is the Chosen One.

You have to kill a fucking dragon to get your first Shout. And then do quests and/or kill dragons and dragonpriests to get a decent library. Meanwhile, magic can be learned by paying some gold for books and spamming spells in controlled environment.
And shouts are not exclusive to Chosen Ones either. Greybeards, Ulfric and megadraugrs use them too.

The magic system is an abstraction that implies scholarly effort on your character's part. One without its dangers even, the old spellmaking system had costs associated to safety precautions - just remember funny hat guy from Morrowind's quest to defy gravity.

Most everyone who learns the shouting are in a similar situation. They aren't dragonborn, thus they train and meditate but eventually learn it.

As dragonborn, the PC is an 'exception to every rule'. His effort in learning shouting has little to do with spellcasting per-se. It is heroic but doesn't necessarily involve the same character attributes that you have in traditional Magicka or even conventional shouting. He's the chosen one, nothing more.

And call it an error of the game, but 'killing a fucking dragon' isn't that much of an accomplishment in Skyrim. For the most part, you're just there while it dies.

 

[Crevice tab]

See, most of the people who I have talked to about the loss of skills make arguments that make me cringe. That is, it is almost like I am talking to a tardsoler claiming that a given skill/attribute or requirement is pointless because it gets in the way of their "fun". It is the same stupid arguments they make about fast travel " Why! I play a game for fun and having to walk around all over the place is not fun! I want instant travel!"

I do not like the perk system in Skyrim, it is a poorly implemented rip off system from Fallout. It is obvious why they did it though, it is because they wanted to streamline the engines for both games so there is less development time. The whole "class" system is a clear sign of dumbing down and holding peoples hands. Depth is lost in the system for the sake of MMO trees and template carrots to follow which is at complete odds with the original design and focus of the series.

Like I said, what was once a game open in its development system as it was in exploration has turned into a narrowed path of design carrots all streamlined to provide the most "accessible" game possible. I really can't stand the game, at all.

Fallout had attributes so the streamlining argument falls flat. Also implementing those pretty looking perk trees is a lot more work than just keeping Oblivion style perks. Actually Skyrim's perks are a good thing- it's the way they did it that sucks- why can't AAA......A+ companies properly Beta test their games? Do devs actually get butthurt when things that aren't bugs are criticized?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The magic system is an abstraction that implies scholarly effort on your character's part. One without its dangers even, the old spellmaking system had costs associated to safety precautions - just remember funny hat guy from Morrowind's quest to defy gravity.
Most everyone who learns the shouting are in a similar situation. They aren't dragonborn, thus they train and meditate but eventually learn it.
As dragonborn, the PC is an 'exception to every rule'. His effort in learning shouting has little to do with spellcasting per-se. It is heroic but doesn't necessarily involve the same character attributes that you have in traditional Magicka or even conventional shouting. He's the chosen one, nothing more.

What differentiates the dragonborn from other Thu'um users is his ability to absorb dragon souls (thus learning shouts instantly). He's a chosen one in the same way the nerevarine can go from the mages guild's errand boy to archmage in a matter of weeks while other wizards have to stay cooped up in their towers for decades. You might say that's an abstraction, but that's some serious scholarly effort considering you begin the game as an anonymous shitty prisoner who can maybe cast one mediocre beginner spell or two.

 

[Metro]

Elsewyr is going to be a Diablo clone.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

What differentiates the dragonborn from other Thu'um users is his ability to absorb dragon souls (thus learning shouts instantly). He's a chosen one in the same way the nerevarine can go from the mages guild's errand boy to archmage in a matter of weeks while other wizards have to stay cooped up in their towers for decades. You might say that's an abstraction, but that's some serious scholarly effort considering you begin the game as an anonymous shitty prisoner who can maybe cast one mediocre beginner spell or two.

DB doesn't learn any shouts by absorbing souls, actually. He learns them from scribbles on walls.

Absorbing dragons' souls seems to have been added for kiddies as a gimmick for "badass" factor or something equally retarded, since plenty of folks in TES learn shouts without killing dragons, including that rebel dude who's not that old or scholarly to consider him a dedicated study. Useless gamey mechanic, tbh.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Way I understand it, he just memorizes what's scribbled on the walls, and consumes the souls to understand what it means. His ability is just a substitute for the Greybeards' dedicated study.

But yeah, I didn't understand the point of the Greybeards either. They make it look like learning shouts is like a normal wizard career, taking a lifetime just to understand a part of the "art". Then you have Ulfric, a jarl (i.e., really busy ruler), using it in combat. Considering Beth's design habits, I wouldn't be surprised if dragon souls were implemented later on, to give you a reason to hunt dragons.

"The learning process seems a bit bland. We need to give it a cost, or something."

"Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if you could, like, absorb their souls?"

Elsewyr is going to be a Diablo clone.

Considering the alternative is a furry LARPfest of biblical proportions, I'm fine with that.